Is Vrabel worth $5M?

[SeymourTrophies]

I don't think 5 million is so bad that he should be cut. He still contributes enough to be kept for that number even though he isn't worth it. I think a healthy Crable would be able to stand in for him on passing downs, and his performance can go up. 5 million isn't so outrageous that we can't keep him, and it's not like we would be able to get anything better if we did cut him.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I don't think 5 million is so bad that he should be cut. He still contributes enough to be kept for that number even though he isn't worth it. I think a healthy Crable would be able to stand in for him on passing downs, and his performance can go up. 5 million isn't so outrageous that we can't keep him, and it's not like we would be able to get anything better if we did cut him.

1. You've said yourself that he is not worth what he is currently getting paid. That should tell you something. Mananging a roster most effectively is not about being wishy washy or sentimental, it's about allocating resources in the most efficient way to make your team better.

2. There are a lot of OLB available in free agency this year who would be an upgrade to an aging Vrabel so your last assumption is incorrect.

 

[Synovia]

This team should be able to handle signings and re-signings without cutting players just for money savings. The only thing that can cause a snag is a protracted franchise situation with Cassel.

The way the Patriots have been so good the last 10 years, is absolutely ruthless cap efficiency. They use their cap space better than anyone else. Letting a 2M a year player (like Vrable is now) play for 5M is just a huge waste of cap space.


Like someone above said, the money that Vrable and Green are being overpaid is enough to pay for Suggs or Dansby.


Who would you rather have, Suggs, or Vrable and Green? I'd much rather have Suggs.

 

[Deus Irae]

The way the Patriots have been so good the last 10 years, is absolutely ruthless cap efficiency.

Troy Brown says "hello".

They use their cap space better than anyone else. Letting a 2M a year player (like Vrable is now) play for 5M is just a huge waste of cap space.

Veterans are paid for both past and future performance, and the cap must be viewed in a manner other than one year at a time, which is why the type of simplistic analysis you're using is so useless. Furthermore, using Miguel's data, Vrabel's cap number is under $4.5 million. As for you thinking he's a $2 million dollar player, that's your opinion.

Like someone above said, the money that Vrable and Green are being overpaid is enough to pay for Suggs or Dansby.

If Green gets cut, he counts for $2.5 million against the cap. If he plays, he counts for $5 million. If Vrabel gets cut, he counts for $1 million on the cap, and he counts for $4.4 if he plays. In other words, if you cut both Vrabel and Green, you save less than $6 million against the cap, waste $3.5 million in space, and still have to pay Suggs or Dansby PLUS a second player. With the current rules in place for 2009 and beyond, I believe that Miguel will agree with me that it's not likely that you could get away with paying Suggs less than $6 million for next season, no matter how you chop up the bonuses, especially after what he made last season. Furthermore, you're just wasting your time dreaming about Suggs anyway, since he'll probably be franchised by the Ravens unless he works out a deal with the team beforehand.

Who would you rather have, Suggs, or Vrable and Green? I'd much rather have Suggs.

I'd rather have Vrabel and Green than Suggs, a stiff replacement for Green and an extra $3.5 million in salary cap costs (above and beyond the contracts for Suggs and the stiff) over one season. Both Vrabel and Green have their contracts end after this season, which will free up that money without penalty and allow for more room when it comes time to negotiate with Wilfork about his extension.

 

[Synovia]

Both Vrabel and Green have their contracts end after this season, which will free up that money without penalty and allow for more room when it comes time to negotiate with Wilfork about his extension.

Penalty? What Penalty?

You SAVE 3.5M cutting Vrable and 2.5M cutting Green. There is no penalty. They're in their last year. Theres nothing to accelerate.

 

[Deus Irae]

Penalty? What Penalty?

You SAVE 3.5M cutting Vrable and 2.5M cutting Green. There is no penalty. They're in their last year. Theres nothing to accelerate.

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2009 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

You don't "save" 3.5M and 2.5M. The team is already on the hook for just about $3.5 million for Green and Vrabel. If you cut them, that becomes dead space on the salary cap and you still need to replace the two players.

Next year, there is no lost cap space.

 

[Synovia]

Troy Brown says "hello".

Troy Brown's highest cap hit was 1.5M. There was no point when cutting him offered significant cap savings.

If Green gets cut, he counts for $2.5 million against the cap. If he plays, he counts for $5 million. If Vrabel gets cut, he counts for $1 million on the cap, and he counts for $4.4 if he plays. In other words, if you cut both Vrabel and Green, you save less than $6 million against the cap, waste $3.5 million in space, and still have to pay Suggs or Dansby PLUS a second player.

That 3.5M is already wasted. Its gone. Its sunk cost. It has no relevance. Its already been spent.

You have to argue whether Vrable at 3.5M is worth it, and whether Green at 2.5M is worth it. I don't think either is.

 

[Synovia]

You don't "save" 3.5M and 2.5M. The team is already on the hook for just about $3.5 million for Green and Vrabel. If you cut them, that becomes dead space on the salary cap and you still need to replace the two players.

The money is gone whether you cut them or not. Whether its dead space because its "dead cap money" or its dead space because a player is being hugely overpaid is really irrelevant. Its sunk cost already, and shouldn't be part of the evaluation.


The question is whether Vrable is worth 3.5M and Green 2.5M. I don't think either one is.

 

[Deus Irae]

Troy Brown's highest cap hit was 1.5M. There was no point when cutting him offered significant cap savings.

I'm pretty sure that the league minimum is comfortably lower than $1.5 million.

That 3.5M is already wasted. Its gone. Its sunk cost. It has no relevance. Its already been spent.

No, and this is another area where people like yourself misunderstand the cap. The money is not wasted, it's invested in Green and Vrabel.

You have to argue whether Vrable at 3.5M is worth it, and whether Green at 2.5M is worth it. I don't think either is.

I don't need to argue any such thing, because you don't argue worth in a vacuum. This is not fantasy football.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Mayo sure as hell didn't make anyone forget about Junior Seau....

this makes no sense..........really.......if the other injuries to pats LB's don't happen, seau never comes back.........

 

[Deus Irae]

this makes no sense..........really.......if the other injuries to pats LB's don't happen, seau never comes back.........

Whether or not Seau would have come back was not the point you posited. Mayo played great for a rookie, but he sure as hell didn't make me forget about Seau.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

That's just not a statement I can agree with.

why? green has never lived up to the latest contract he has gotten, and wright has proven to be a better backup since wright has backed up all 3 spots on the line......green can only back up seymour (with the exception of nickel packages)

green's entire career has been based on the beating he gave peyton manning in the 2004 playoffs........he can't stop the run

the pats had no problem tossing colvin to the curb, and vrabel is in the exact same spot........

the pats can do better than vrabel and green for 8M

 

[Clonamery]

the pats can do better than vrabel and green for 8M

If the stars align and some other stuff happens, yeah.....

 

[Deus Irae]

why? green has never lived up to the latest contract he has gotten, and wright has proven to be a better backup since wright has backed up all 3 spots on the line......green can only back up seymour (with the exception of nickel packages)

Green can back up Seymour or Warren, and I'm pretty sure that Belichick looks at D-linemen as being inherently more valuable than you do, given your comments on this.

green's entire career has been based on the beating he gave peyton manning in the 2004 playoffs........he can't stop the run

Maybe we can pretend that Belichick knows a little bit about players he re-signs when given the opportunity to either do that or walk away, and go way out on a limb in pretending that he gave the contract to Green based upon more than one game.

the pats had no problem tossing colvin to the curb, and vrabel is in the exact same spot........

Really? How do you know this? What's your information on Vrabel's medical condition? The last time I checked, Vrabel was still able to play with his injury, while Colvin's injury had put him on the shelf.

the pats can do better than vrabel and green for 8M

Again.... it's Vrabel and Green v. 2 other players for Vrabel & Green money PLUS $3.5 million in wasted space.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Whether or not Seau would have come back was not the point you posited. Mayo played great for a rookie, but he sure as hell didn't make me forget about Seau.

didn't make me forget about monty beisel either.........or eric alexander........hell, I still haven't forgotten about the wrong reggie white

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Green can back up Seymour or Warren, and I'm pretty sure that Belichick looks at D-linemen as being inherently more valuable than you do, given your comments on this.

green can also backup brady, but just like backing up warren, he has never done it

Maybe we can pretend that Belichick knows a little bit about players he re-signs when given the opportunity to either do that or walk away, and go way out on a limb in pretending that he gave the contract to Green based upon more than one game.

the 'BB knows best' mental crutch is pretty lame.........he also gave out that contract before seymour was extended.......its called hedging your bets

Really? How do you know this? What's your information on Vrabel's medical condition? The last time I checked, Vrabel was still able to play with his injury, while Colvin's injury had put him on the shelf.

colvin was ready to play this summer and the pats could have used him.......they went into the season with pierre woods instead of colvin as their 3rd OLB and how'd that work out?

Again.... it's Vrabel and Green v. 2 other players for Vrabel & Green money PLUS $3.5 million in wasted space.

you are assuming that green has hit his escalators.........so far, this has not been announced, has it? I mean if someone hits a 2M escalator, it usually makes the paper somewhere by now.....mike wright and terrell suggs would work much better

 

[redsox33]

colvin was ready to play this summer and the pats could have used him.......they went into the season with pierre woods instead of colvin as their 3rd OLB and how'd that work out?

Yes he was, and he was cut by the Texans! And truthfully he did NOT impress me when he came back here. He seemed lost at times.

 

[stinkypete]

Green I expect to be cut. He doesn't do enough to justify his cap hit, and he hasn't had a significant game since early 2007.

It would shock me if Vrabel were cut. I think he has earned position where he will be kept as long as he is useful, and he has ALWAYS agreed to restructure his deal when necessary to help the team. I don't think it is impossible, but I don't expect it.

 

[Kontradiction]

I wouldn't cut Green this year. If anything, cut him next year after his contract year. His pass rush was important for us at the end of the season last year but he can be let go at the end of the 2009 season when his contract expires without us taking a cap hit.

And to answer the original question: yes, Vrabel is worth $5 million this year. Let him get better from that shoulder injury that was bothering him and see what he can do next season.

 

[Deus Irae]

green can also backup brady, but just like backing up warren, he has never done it

Are you claiming that Green has never subbed in for Warren on 3rd down, or spelled him for a tweak? As for replacing him as a starter, Warren's only missed one game in his career prior to this season, so it's not as if your argument has any real merit that can be noted over any long period of time.

the 'BB knows best' mental crutch is pretty lame.........he also gave out that contract before seymour was extended.......its called hedging your bets

No, what's lame is you thinking you know what Belichick was thinking when it runs counter to the actual data. Please list all the myriad players that Belichick has re-signed, to a multi-million dollar contract based upon one game.

colvin was ready to play this summer and the pats could have used him.......they went into the season with pierre woods instead of colvin as their 3rd OLB and how'd that work out?

1.) Colvin had been shelved during the season before, as opposed to being able to play through the injury

2.) Colvin was clearly not ready to play this summer, since he couldn't make it onto a team. The Texans signed him to be a pass rushing specialist, and he was not 'ready' enough to make their team.

3.) Woods was doing fine before getting hurt himself. Is your claim going to be that Colvin would have avoided injury?

you are assuming that green has hit his escalators.........so far, this has not been announced, has it? I mean if someone hits a 2M escalator, it usually makes the paper somewhere by now.....mike wright and terrell suggs would work much better

I'm assuming nothing other than Miguel's essential accuracy with his salary cap page. I took Miguel's numbers and /used them.

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2009 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

If you think Miguel is wrong, feel free to take it up with him.