Is Bill Belichick Getting Off Easy?

[PatsFanInVa]

Maroneys, you're pointing toward one basic issue with "Big Game" analysis, although the "how many do they win out of ___" argument is inherently a little disrespectful to the actual winners.

To wit: did we, or did we not, field a talented, well-coached, accomplished team in 2007? Yes, of course we did.

Did we, or did we not, lose to the giants? Yes, of course we did.

The 2006 loss to the Colts was a failure to protect a lead against a more talented team. The 2007 loss to the Giants was a huge loss to a "lower rated" team, however you measure that.

Did the Giants have a great plan? Yep! Did the Pats have trouble in protection? Yep! Did the Giants use more than we'd seen before, and did we look unready for that? Yep! Did the Pats' players, in the final analysis, simply fail to execute at the high level necessary to win a super bowl? YEP!

Is the sky falling? Nope!

These are good players. These are good coaches. We have off-season issues to deal with now: contracts, free agency, the draft. The game is over.

Some of our non-issues:

- coaching staff
- most of the O-line

...Um, some of the very "issues" that failed the Pats most in the Super Bowl.

Can you address "Asante almost caught one very important ball but didn't?"

No.

Can you address "The D-line almost sacked Eli Manning at a very important time but didn't?"

No.

Can you address "Hobbs was the one guy in coverage when you called a full-on blitz?"

Only by banning house blitzes... and making yourself more predictable.

Can you address "Go for the field goal/punt" on the 4th and 13?

Sort of. This may be the story - we kept looking for "knockout punches," those plays that shook off the war of attrition and smacked the Giants in the mouth.

BB did not (apparently) trust Gostkowski to hit a little area between goal posts when he could not hit a big area between sidelines. Maybe that's just the crusty old man in him, punishing Gost for the screwup.

Can you address "Didn't activate everybody in the Jumbo set"?

Looks like the game plan was to pass rather than grind it out... a pretty logical conclusion given that the Gintz' secondary is considered their defense's weakness.

Can you address "No answer for the Giants' rush"?

Um, maybe. More likely a very good (if not great) O-line did not play nearly at the level they had all season.

A real conclusion points to what you can do next season, unless you are a believer in Fate or Football Gods or something.

Otherwise, consistently putting a team in the position to win is all we can ask of a coaching staff. This coaching staff does exactly that, maximizing that chance in just about every game.

Did they do it againt the Giants? Not in hindsight.

Can they do it next year? Absolutely.

How do you start the hunt for XLIII? Get the groceries.

PFnV

 

[Ring 6]

If you think I sound "spoiled", why don't you take a look at the New York Yankees. Joe Torre won 4-of-5 titles, but lost in the playoffs SEVEN years running. The front office wanted him out because there is no point when you keep going back to the playoffs and LOSING. At some point somebody had to say "the past is the past, and the trend is not our friend". And right now, the trend is not in the Patriots' favor.

What so the Yankees have to do with this?
The Yankees outspend every team, and buy the best roster in baseball. (IF they spend it correctly)
Doing THAT and not winning for 7 years is night and day from the Patriots.

Lets review:
We won back to back in 03-04.
We had to, to an extent rebuild the team in 05. We were awful in the secondary. I would consider that season a very good coaching job.
In 2006, we continued the rebuild, had some issues,particularly at WR, and came within a minute of going to the SB. With average coaching we would have been no where near where we got.
In 2007, we won every game leading up to the SB, and we failed on the final drive of the game.

You are equating either our D failing or the Giant O taking the game on one drive to the Yankees buying every player they wanted and losing 7 years in a row????????????????????????????????

Your attitude comes off as if winning SBs is taken for granted, easy, meant to be.
From the point of SB XXXIX and the 'rebuild' that we were facing, this team has been tremendously successful. Unfortunately the ultimate success evaded them for 3 years.
You seem to be saying no championships in 3 years is failure.
There are currently a handful of coaches in the NFL who have EVER won a SB.
Coughlin(1), Shanahan (2, I guess he has lost it though and should be fired), Holmgren (1) (again must have lost it) dungy (1) and Gruden (1).
Each have had much longer than 3 stretches without winning one of even getting close.

What standard are you comparing BB to? Whatever that standard is you need to open your eyes and realize it isnt even close to realistic.

 

[MassPats38]

richpats, PatsFanInVA just provided a number of facts you could have responded to, but you opted instead to again cherry pick a single statement. His post is not likely incoherent babble to anyone other than yourself. The point of his post was to state that if you have a theory that coaching is to blame, you should have sufficient facts to support that theory as a theory tends to approximate a mathematical equation (that would be scientific method 101 - in order of strength hypothesis/theory/conclusion). If a+b=c, you can pick any numbers for a and b and c balances the equation. If you are so dead set in your belief that coaching is to blame, you obviously have sufficient knowledge and facts to predict what changed, what needs to change and what can be done to fix it. Your entire parade of posts has implicated coaching, so if you are saying "I am a fan and do not have to provide a solution", what you are really saying is your whole coaching gripe is nothing more than uninformed whining about a loss and save everyone the pain of debating the argument that coaching is to blame for losses.

As you continue to disregard the facts in other posts in your response, instead choosing to address sentences you like rather than the factual substance of some 100 prior posts, the logical conclusion is those facts do not work with your argument and therefore you do not believe your own argument.

PatsFanInVA is not providing excessive words. Those words are called facts and opinions that counter your own. If you want an intelligent debate, address the substance of his post rather than a quoted sentence from much longer posts or post a disclaimer that another incomplete response is to be expected from you that supports your untenable argument.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

2005- lost division round
2006- lost AFCCG
2007- lost SB on miracle plays

Is the "blueprint" now completed for 19-0 in 2008?

This year has been really interesting. I actually told my wife last Monday that I can't wait for the season to be over. By Saturday, I was so tired of it, I wished they cancelled the game.

For some reason, I'm getting stoked for 2008. Also, if anyone remembers, the exact same talk was being bantered about in 1988 about the 49ers. I mean they won their last SB in 1984 and had gone 3 years without a SB.

It's all downhill they said. The dynasty is finished.

richpat, all I can say is thank god you weren't advising Winston Churchill during the early stages of WWII.

 

[richpats]

richpat, all I can say is thank god you weren't advising Winston Churchill during the early stages of WWII.

And I'm glad you aren't on our coaching staff. They would be EXTREMELY complacent with a guy that loved to reflect on the old days, like you.

 

[richpats]

richpats, PatsFanInVA just provided a number of facts you could have responded to, but you opted instead to again cherry pick a single statement. His post is not likely incoherent babble to anyone other than yourself. The point of his post was to state that if you have a theory that coaching is to blame, you should have sufficient facts to support that theory as a theory tends to approximate a mathematical equation (that would be scientific method 101 - in order of strength hypothesis/theory/conclusion). If a+b=c, you can pick any numbers for a and b and c balances the equation. If you are so dead set in your belief that coaching is to blame, you obviously have sufficient knowledge and facts to predict what changed, what needs to changed and what can be done to fix it. Your entire parade of posts has implicated coaching, so if you are saying "I am a fan and do not have to provide a solution", what you are really saying is your whole coaching gripe is nothing more than uninformed whining about a loss and save everyone the pain of debating the argument that coaching is to blame for losses.

As you continue to disregard the facts in other posts in your response, instead choosing to address sentences you like rather than the factual substance of some 100 prior posts, the logical conclusion is those facts do not work with your argument and therefore you do not believe your own argument.

PatsFanInVA is not providing excessive words. Those words are called facts and opinions that counter your own. If you want an intelligent debate, address the substance of his post rather than a quoted sentence from much longer posts or post a disclaimer that another incomplete response is to be expected from you that support your untenable argument.

You sound like the teacher from the Peanuts. I'm not wasting my energy trying to fight tooth-and-nail about every little word. We've been losing in the playoffs the last 3 years, some of those losses quite epic, and it concerns me as a FAN. What you are trying to do is engage in a debate of "what would you do?" and so forth, and you and others just come off as "know-it-all's" when you, nor I, nor anyone else can make a difference. You think we have more power than we actually have.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

You sound like the teacher from the Peanuts. I'm not wasting my energy trying to fight tooth-and-nail about every little word. We've been losing in the playoffs the last 3 years, some of those losses quite epic, and it concerns me as a FAN. What you are trying to do is engage in a debate of "what would you do?" and so forth, and you and others just come off as "know-it-all's" when you, nor I, nor anyone else can make a difference. You think we have more power than we actually have.

Nah, we just like to follow football to the extent possible. People here war with each other all the time about various intricacies of "what we should do". That necessitates acquiring knowledge of some aspect of the game or another. Call it local culture. It's almost inevitable that posts on a written discussion forum will be more in-depth than the equivalent of "Son of a B * * *, we lost AGAIN!" I say almost inevitable, because as you have shown, there is always an exception that proves the rule.

Following football enriches the experience of being a fan, from my point of view. Look into it.

PFnV

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Au contraire there, sparky

I would recommend going back to my earlier posts. As I said, I don't have all the info to properly evaluate what happened this past 2 weeks.

It's like after the 2006 AFCCG. Sorry, I didn't at the time and still believe today, it was a "collapse". 4 long distance, physical road games in 5 weeks with the last in SD? I believe BB drew the correct conclusion and said, "the problem was we put ourselves in this position during the regular season, let's not do it again."

Now as far as this last year goes:

It's common knowledge that passing attacks take 2 to 3 years to mature. The accomplishments this year were unprecedented. Review our overall gameplans and draw conclusions.

Personally, I thought we were too predictable and too verticle later in the season (this is particurly true with Moss). I also believe, we need to get Maroney in space more and get a better mix of Maroney/Faulk/Morris in pass/run.

Overall, the defense was very solid. Face it, other teams get first downs and GASP score points. However, it was solid, very solid. However, we need to evaluate:

Age is obvious, has Rodney lost a step?

What to do with #7 pick/Colvin/Samuel. These three are intertwined

Will Seymour recover?

Use this whole keystone cops SB experience and get ready for next year.

 

[richpats]

Following football enriches the experience of being a fan, from my point of view. Look into it.

PFnV

I don't need advice from a know-it-all like you to enrich my experience of watching the Patriots. Again, get a life. Unsolicited advice is not your thing.

 

[MassPats38]

You sound like the teacher from the Peanuts. I'm not wasting my energy trying to fight tooth-and-nail about every little word. We've been losing in the playoffs the last 3 years, some of those losses quite epic, and it concerns me as a FAN. What you are trying to do is engage in a debate of "what would you do?" and so forth, and you and others just come off as "know-it-all's" when you, nor I, nor anyone else can make a difference. You think we have more power than we actually have.

Your concern as a FAN is apparent, but you are not asking why they lost. You in fact stated in prior posts (and I'm happy to provide you links in the event you have short term memory issues) your opinion that coaching is to blame and the quality of coaching is in the decline, which is why everyone is attempting to argue in the alternative. Addressing the substance of the posts (try to disable your quote key or quote the entire post) is somewhat more intelligent than crying 'homer' and addressing the least substantive portion of a post.

I know, useless words, misinterpretations, and misstatements of your prior posts. You raised the Indy and Giants games in support of your argument that coaching is to blame, I then asked specific questions with regard to those games (twice asked the question, again I can give you links) and you refused to answer them. Why? Because you have no answer that supports your argument.

If you are in fact Einstein and have decrypted with the certainty you seem to have in your opinion that coaching on the Pats is in the decline and responsible for two major losses, review the questions I raised and answer them. In working through that exercise, you may actually conclude that the reasoning supporting your opinion is specious and not consistent with logical principles.

I do not read the posts as the product of know-it-alls as any true fan knows the outcome of games is determined by varying degrees of player performance, player abilities, coaching and luck. Nobody here knows for sure what is to blame but most would be happy to debate opinions. There is evidence in support of any position, but evidence in the form of outcomes (wins and losses) does not eliminate any variables. Responding in a debate with your debate position rather than argument in no way supports your position.

And it is better to be the teacher from the peanuts than the guy sitting with the aluminum foil hat on his head protecting his brain waves or the Mayor of Crazy Town. I'm still hoping you're a reasonable guy who does not have one of those hats and holds no imaginary office. So anwer those questions I asked about those 2 games http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=77484&page=12and let the informed discussions begin.

 

[richpats]

You in fact stated in prior posts (and I'm happy to provide you links in the event you have short term memory issues) your opinion that coaching is to blame and the quality of coaching is in the decline, which is why everyone is attempting to argue in the alternative.

You and others are simply trying to change one person's opinion and no matter how many wrong interpretations you make, no matter how many "what would you do's" you ask, you'll never change my opinion. I've stated why I think the coaching staff has been ineffective in this and primarily another thread. You won't change my mind, so why continue to argue?

And every "argument" in the alternative sounds like an excuse-making exercise.

 

[MassPats38]

You and others are simply trying to change one person's opinion and no matter how many wrong interpretations you make, no matter how many "what would you do's" you ask, you'll never change my opinion. I've stated why I think the coaching staff has been ineffective in this and primarily another thread. You won't change my mind, so why continue to argue?

I could care less if I change your opinion. If you do not want to discuss the validity of your opinion, the best course of action is not to raise it on the boards encouraging a response. As stated previously, typically nobody here knows for sure why the Pats lose so coaching is a possibility, as well as a number of other possible causes.

With that said, you have thrown out your share of 'irrational homer' replies in this and other threads to those who question your opinion. If you profess to have an educated opinion rather than an irrational/unreasoned opinion, then address the argument and articulate facts supporting the basis for your opinion other than the fact the games ended in a loss (which is naive to the extreme, even if sounding like a know-it-all). Otherwise, tell them you got your opinion from the Psychic Hotline and avoid a few hundred posts.

People do not bite your head off for questioning the coaching, most fans ultimately do question it, but they will bite your head off if you keep saying they are wrong and you are right without a scintilla of support for your contention. If you can't identify a basis for the opinion, simply say so and avoid the angry responses.

 

[richpats]

People do not bite your head off for questioning the coaching, most fans ultimately do question it, but they will bite your head off if you keep saying they are wrong and you are right without a scintilla of support for your contention.

People are wrong for saying that I'm advocating the firing of Coach Belichick because I raise concerns about his performance. It's obvious some people don't like to hear that they misinterpreted a post. And it's obvious that even when you try to raise concerns in a constructive manner, that people will bite your head off anyway.

 

[#12]

He is my all time favorite coach. I gave him a break last year blowing an 18 point lead in the AFCCG. I blamed the WRs for letting us down last year.

It is hard to believe Bill let an 18-0 team with a 4th quarter lead lose. I can still she him coaching the defense on the side lines while the offense is on the field tanking.

I see Tony Dungy, Marty Shottenhiemer, and Bill Cowher losing a SB like this. Not Bill!!!!!!

Well the truth of the matter is, you're asking this question BC of his greatness. Which of those other coaches would have gotten their team (with all the distractions etc) into a position of 18-0...NONE...furthermore which coach in the HISTORY of the league was capable of getting their team to 18-0 other than BB...none...so if there is anything to blame for BB I feel that its his greatness which leads us to have such incredible expectations of him week in and out. If you look at the last 3 years, there has been an improvement EVERY YEAR. How many coaches can say that on such a high level they have their teams improving every year...with no let down whatsoever regardless of the heartbreaking losses the previous years. He will have them ready to go in '08 and when all is said and done he will have firmly established himself as one of if not the greatest ever.

EDIT* PS I think it's fine to criticize his performance in the SB..not his best, however, the fact that he led us to this UNBELIEVABLE POSITION is the reason why I don't think he's getting off easy

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

BB can never get off easy. Can you imagine what it's like for him having himself as a critic.

 

[Truck]

This is the first time in BB's career as a Patriot (including his run as a DC), and probably in his entire career, that BB has lost a game in which his team was favored.

Thats an incredible streak -- to win all the 'home' playoff games, and a good percent of road/underdog games.

It just so happenned that his first loss as the favored playoff team came at the most inopportune time.

But what can you say to him? There's nothing you can say that he hasn't said to himself.

Whats the point of assigning blame? I guarantee all those players and coaches put the blame on themselves.

And its still the best group of players/coaches going forward. They'll self analyze and try to correct.

Now if they were giong to sit on this and do nothing about it goign forward, then blame is fair

 

[PATS_walkitout]

Obviously Bill Belichick deserves alot of the blame because he didnt have his team prepared to play the game. All year they were saying the record didnt matter they were taking it one game at a time. THen they have a perfect season and the ****iness sets in and they look past the Giants and lose. Honestly had they lost a game in the regular season it might have gotten them better focused to win the Superbowl. As a result the will be the only 18-1 team to not win the Superbowl. Unless by some crazy fortune another team does it.

 

[Patsguy05]

Sadly, neither of these coaches would have the balls to go 18-0 before making the SB. And judging by the SB experience of Dungy and Cowher, they would have a double-digit lead for the 4th quarter.

It is amazing how Belichick is such a great coach but he can't put away a Super Bowl early to save his life.

You can coach till your blue in the face but your players have to make the plays. We had guys in the right spots (which is what the coach does) but you can't as a coach go out there and make the plays for them. Ease off!

 

[rabthepat]

BB can never get off easy. Can you imagine what it's like for him having himself as a critic.

I disagree...As I have said I am a big Bill fan. I've read as many books and articles about him as I could get my hands on. I always watch his press conferences and TV interviews. I blindly accepted his years of "Non" answers to the media. He said he would address the Spygate issue once the league did it's investigation. His response, "I've moved on".

Now all I read from him is that he has no time to watch the game film and figure what went wrong. He is moving on to next season. It's like he is the Captain of the Titanic and jumps into a life boat and makes it ashore and tells the press, "No comment, I've moved on".

I just think his feet are not being held to the fire. We lost in Denver, we lost in Indy, Spygate, and we have an epic SB loss for the ages and all is well because we won 3 SBs in the past.

 

[Disco Volante]

Bellichick is getting off a lot easier then Don Shula.

Probably because Shula needs to be aided by Viagra to get off