Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[upstater1]

So you realize nothing, then, and tried to spin me as a racist because you don't know what the hell you're talking about and haven't bothered paying attention to what's gone on in this thread.

How embarrassing for you to be caught attempting such a pathetic maneuver.

And again, you don't respond to anything in my post so no one knows what you're talking about, which is always typical from you.

 

[upstater1]

The information I'm operating under has been widely reported. But you're still not getting it, so there's no point in even discussing it further.

Huh? I agreed with everything you said but the last. I said that we are operating under different sets of information because you said no one said Martin wasn't black. That is exactly what Salguero quoted black players as saying to him.

That seems to fly in the face of everything the players themselves actually said, which is that Philbin wanted them mum on the situation and they spoke up anyway to come to the defense of their teammate and friend, who they felt was being unfairly targeted by Martin and the media. But you're looking for any way possible to justify your position at this point because you're extremely offended by the use of a word, even though that word by all reports coming out since the media had access to the locker room yesterday was used in hopes of busting a teammate and friend's balls. Not to mention, the call was also cut short in it's printed version.

I'm offended by the attitude of most of the Miami players. I can see why they had this problem. Don't know what it is about Martin that made the black players say he wasn't really black. But if that's the attitude, then they deserve to be ridiculed. It's no surprise to me that people like that would have this blow up in their face.

 

[Deus Irae]

And again, you don't respond to anything in my post so no one knows what you're talking about, which is always typical from you.

I've responded to your posts. You admitted to not having been in an NFL locker room, and you then proceeded to toss out an absurd opinion which has clearly been refuted by the players themselves. You've also either knowingly lied in an attempt to brand me a racist, or you casually threw around the word without bothering to read the thread.

Either way, what you did was a douchebag maneuver.


And, by the way, regarding this:

I could be from Timbuktu and still realize that no matter what goes on in there, players saying a guy wasn't black (for any number of reasons) or assuming anyone can use racial epithets in any way they wish is absolutely bigoted (the former) and racist (the latter).

you don't "realize" a damned thing. You opine, pretty clearly without having much knowledge about what the hell you're opining about.

 

[upstater1]

And that's exactly what Martin should have done if he thought he was being unfairly bullied. But the more that comes out on this, the more I'm beginning to think that Martin, psychologically, just was not cut out for the NFL.

What do you think Ireland would have advised Martin if Incognito cleaned his clock, then came back the next day and bullied him even more?

 

[DaBronxPats14]

And that's exactly what Martin should have done if he thought he was being unfairly bullied. But the more that comes out on this, the more I'm beginning to think that Martin, psychologically, just was not cut out for the NFL.

Yeah from what I'm readin/hearin his nature isn't cut out for him throwin him a beaten but with a guy like Incognito it'll probably be a knock down drag out death to end vicious fight. Guy like him isn't wrapped to tight his track record speaks for itself. More is gonna come out.

 

[upstater1]

I've responded to your posts. You admitted to not having been in an NFL locker room, and you then proceeded to toss out an absurd opinion which has clearly been refuted by the players themselves. You've also either knowingly lied in an attempt to brand me a racist, or you casually threw around the word without bothering to read the thread.

Either way, what you did was a douchebag maneuver.

"I admitted to not being in an NFL locker room." Hah! As though you are an NFL stalwart. A legend in your own mind.

I'll say it again: the players are bigots when they say Martin isn't black enough. And a white person who agrees with such an assessment is a racist.

 

[Ring 6]

You are still confused.

Not at all.

Salguero said the black players told him that Martin was not black, that Incognito was an honorary black. Really now, you have to be an expert on the black community to know there are issues with passing, issues with skin tone, issues with middle class and poor blacks, as though many white Americans who have daily interactions with people from the black community are unaware of this?

You judged the black players on the Dolphins and stated what is 'controversial in the black community'. I again asked for a basis for that.

As I said, even if I were from the moon and never met a black person in my life, I would know that saying that a black man wasn't really black was totally bigoted. It's astounding to me that you would even question that and ask for my dissertation into the psychology of the black community in order to say that.

Then you should communicate better.
You have no idea how Martin took the comment. You have no idea if Martin even attempted to bond with the black players. You are taking one comment FROM A REPORTER out of context, and then adding your insight to the black community to it.

What are you arguing anyway? You're making stuff up now. Who said anything about fitting in? It's clear I've said multiple times he DIDN'T fit in. What I am saying to you is that it's up to him as to how he identifies as a black man.

So why are you challenging the way he chose to?
You seem to have an idea of how black someone is supposed to be and how other blacks are supposed to take that. You are way out of bounds here.

I didn't call them racist. I called them bigoted. Big difference.

When the source of bigotry is race, it is exactly the same thing. You know that, you are backtracking to cover it up now.

No, I am entirely confident that yours is, because it essentializes blacks as being only one thing.

Are you out of your mind? You are telling black people how they are supposed to act and feel.
I am saying they are people. Racism is putting everyone in a race under the same umbrella which is exactly what you are doing.
I am doing the opposite.
You compared 'the other blacks in the lockerroom' to 'an educated black man'. That is as offensive as Incognitos comment.

You'd have absolutely no right at all to tell Martin how black he is.

I have no intetion to. Dude, you are responding to me as if I said what you did.

And if this is how you go about things, determining levels of blackness, that's racist.

I have made no comment whatsoever about levels of blackness.
You are chasing windmills here.

 

[upstater1]

And, by the way, regarding this:

you don't "realize" a damned thing. You opine, pretty clearly without having much knowledge about what the hell you're opining about.

So, when you used to be a regular denizen of NFL locker rooms in your All-Pro NFL career (int he fantasy league of your mind) you regularly told black guys they weren't black enough for you. Congrats that you made it out alive.

 

[Ivan]

And that's exactly what Martin should have done if he thought he was being unfairly bullied. But the more that comes out on this, the more I'm beginning to think that Martin, psychologically, just was not cut out for the NFL.

Yep, regardless of the outcome it is hard to see Martin playing for anyone after this. While i think that some of the stuff that went on here is acros the line, especially the financial demands most if not all of the behavior has happened in locker rooms throughout professional sports for decades and decades, especially football locker rooms. That doesn't mean it's all acceptable but more that it isn't unusual, and the entire discussion about the use of language among athletes is so contextually loaded that it will never get sorted out.

 

[Ring 6]

You are still confused.



Salguero said the black players told him that Martin was not black, that Incognito was an honorary black. Really now, you have to be an expert on the black community to know there are issues with passing, issues with skin tone, issues with middle class and poor blacks, as though many white Americans who have daily interactions with people from the black community are unaware of this? As I said, even if I were from the moon and never met a black person in my life, I would know that saying that a black man wasn't really black was totally bigoted. It's astounding to me that you would even question that and ask for my dissertation into the psychology of the black community in order to say that.




What are you arguing anyway? You're making stuff up now. Who said anything about fitting in? It's clear I've said multiple times he DIDN'T fit in. What I am saying to you is that it's up to him as to how he identifies as a black man.



I didn't call them racist. I called them bigoted. Big difference.



No, I am entirely confident that yours is, because it essentializes blacks as being only one thing. You'd have absolutely no right at all to tell Martin how black he is. And if this is how you go about things, determining levels of blackness, that's racist.

By the way, no one on the Dolphins, or Salguero said Martin was not black. Your reading comperehension is the failure here.

 

[Ring 6]

I was commenting about behavior, and we have a lot of data on that.

I just think we have next to no insight into that.
By all accounts during most of his career David Meggett was a strong leader, quality guy and classy person.....

 

[Deus Irae]

So, when you used to be a regular denizen of NFL locker rooms in your All-Pro NFL career (int he fantasy league of your mind) you regularly told black guys they weren't black enough for you. Congrats that you made it out alive.

I didn't claim to have been in an NFL locker room and, since I'm not the one calling the players bigots, I don't really need to worry about that. I have, however, hung around with NFL football players, NBA basketball players and MLB Baseball players in relaxed settings, and I know how they handle themselves. I've also lived in poor areas where blacks were a higher than average percentage of the population and been part of groups where they were in mixed company as the majority, had a babysitter who's grandson was a child of mixed parents and been his friend for years, and spent many a day having serious discussions with blacks about various topics, including racism.

So you keep spouting nonsense and trying to pretend there's an absolute here when there isn't. Players, former players, and others have already come out and disagreed with your position, but keep trying to spin it as if I'm the racist for pointing out your errors.

 

[Ring 6]

Yep, regardless of the outcome it is hard to see Martin playing for anyone after this. While i think that some of the stuff that went on here is acros the line, especially the financial demands most if not all of the behavior has happened in locker rooms throughout professional sports for decades and decades, especially football locker rooms. That doesn't mean it's all acceptable but more that it isn't unusual, and the entire discussion about the use of language among athletes is so contextually loaded that it will never get sorted out.

I think Martin may not want to play again.
I would not be surprised if he ends up in court looking for a monetary settlement.

 

[Kontradiction]

Huh? I agreed with everything you said but the last. I said that we are operating under different sets of information because you said no one said Martin wasn't black. That is exactly what Salguero quoted black players as saying to him.

Then I misunderstood you, so my apologies with that paragraph. That said, it's been much more widely reported as the Dolphins players saying they thought Incognito was "more black" than Martin and that he was an "honorary black guy". I think Salguero may have simply misquoted it.

I'm offended by the attitude of most of the Miami players. I can see why they had this problem. Don't know what it is about Martin that made the black players say he wasn't really black. But if that's the attitude, then they deserve to be ridiculed. It's no surprise to me that people like that would have this blow up in their face.

I already explained it to you. Martin came from a different background, both financially and through his education. Some people are built to adapt to their environments and Martin had trouble doing just that. That's why he was ultimately ostracized.

 

[Ring 6]

Then I misunderstood you, so my apologies with that paragraph. That said, it's been much more widely reported as the Dolphins players saying they thought Incognito was "more black" than Martin and that he was an "honorary black guy". I think Salguero may have simply misquoted it.

Salgueros quote was fine, the poster misread it.

 

[Kontradiction]

"I admitted to not being in an NFL locker room." Hah! As though you are an NFL stalwart. A legend in your own mind.

I'll say it again: the players are bigots when they say Martin isn't black enough. And a white person who agrees with such an assessment is a racist.

No, they aren't. Those white people just have exerpiences and good friends outside of their own race. You're still not getting it.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'll say it again: the players are bigots when they say Martin isn't black enough. And a white person who agrees with such an assessment is a racist.

More than racists, more than bigots, these players are children in an isolated world of their own. There's no genuine reflection of society at large occurring in that locker room down in Miami. It's unfortunate that this silly brouhaha -- which should've been handled behind closed doors -- is being taken seriously by anyone not directly involved.

Worst of all is that Goodell will be coming down with some sort of over-reactive decree to appease the general public's media-driven (misinformed) conclusion that NFL locker rooms are rife with "hazing" and "bullying." Martin and Incognito should be starting for Miami next Monday night. Instead, both their careers likely are over. What a load of crap all around.

 

[upstater1]

You judged the black players on the Dolphins and stated what is 'controversial in the black community'. I again asked for a basis for that.

Sorry for assuming this is common knowledge, since it's something the black people I know talk about regularly, it's been around for ages in discussion of Uncle Tom's, it's heavy in the culture too (ever see a Spike Lee movie, he only mentions it 10x per movie). I could go on and on, but this is the sort of controversy this issue always seems to raise: Cornel West, Tavis Smiley playing poverty games | theGrio

You have no idea how Martin took the comment. You have no idea if Martin even attempted to bond with the black players. You are taking one comment FROM A REPORTER out of context, and then adding your insight to the black community to it.

What context could there possibly be for "he's not black enough?"

You seem to have an idea of how black someone is supposed to be and how other blacks are supposed to take that. You are way out of bounds here.

I said the exact opposite of this. I wrote that no one has the right to essentialize how Martin should act, and what constitutes blackness.

When the source of bigotry is race, it is exactly the same thing. You know that, you are backtracking to cover it up now.

1. I never accused the black players of racism. Look it up.
2. I don't think you're right that any bigotry is racial.
3. I used the word I've most commonly seen dealing with this issue, and it's commonly called "intra-race bigotry" which is different from racism. When black players say that Martin isn't black enough, they are not making declarations about the superiority of their race (or the inferiority of another). You may define racism differently, but I think this is a pretty common usage. When a person extols the superiority of one race over another, that's racism. I never said the black players were doing that in Martin's case, and that's why I never used the word racism to describe what they were doing, and it's why I called it bigotry.

Are you out of your mind? You are telling black people how they are supposed to act and feel.
I am saying they are people. Racism is putting everyone in a race under the same umbrella which is exactly what you are doing.
I am doing the opposite.
You compared 'the other blacks in the lockerroom' to 'an educated black man'. That is as offensive as Incognitos comment.

What? Where are you coming up with this?

1. I wrote that they SHOULDN'T declare that blackness is only one thing, that by saying Martin isn't black or black enough, they are putting all blacks into "one umbrella" as you put it. As for the last comment, you totally misconstrued what I was saying. That was only one possibility for why they don't feel Martin is black enough. I wrote that it could be his education. It could also be the fact that he's biracial. It could be that he doesn't apek like them. or like the things they do. It could be any number of things, but the fact that they singled him out as not being black enough tells me that they don't dislike him because he's a pansy, or because he sucks on the OL, or because he's a crybaby. They might dislike him for all the latter reasons, but when they say he isn't black enough, it's for an entirely different reason altogether. I was clear when I first wrote that that I was speculating. I have no idea really why they don't think he's not black. I'm only guessing that it has to do with one parent being white, or with his speech, or with his Stanford education. It could be other things.

 

[Kontradiction]

More than racists, more than bigots, these players are children in an isolated world of their own. There's no genuine reflection of society at large occurring in that locker room down in Miami. It's unfortunate that this silly brouhaha -- which should've been handled behind closed doors -- is being taken seriously by anyone not directly involved.

It's not a reflection of society at large because, at large, society is sheltered and carries around that sheltered point of view with them well into their adult lives. It's the reason why the general public is cringing at the thought of a white guy dropping the N word over a phone call while the players themselves and those with friendships outside of their own race really couldn't care less because they understand that the word wasn't meant in an offensive way.

 

[upstater1]

More than racists, more than bigots, these players are children in an isolated world of their own. There's no genuine reflection of society at large occurring in that locker room down in Miami. It's unfortunate that this silly brouhaha -- which should've been handled behind closed doors -- is being taken seriously by anyone not directly involved.

Worst of all is that Goodell will be coming down with some sort of over-reactive decree to appease the general public's media-driven (misinformed) conclusion that NFL locker rooms are rife with "hazing" and "bullying." Martin and Incognito should be starting for Miami next Monday night. Instead, both their careers likely are over. What a load of crap all around.

As someone who grew up in a very poor area of the inner-city (my dad was a dishwasher!) I totally accept that white people have relationships with blacks where it's accepted that they can use the N word. I grew up there in the 1970s and early 80s when it was really rough and tumble. I also know that you cant assume everyone is OK with the use of this word. Martin did not grow up in the neighborhoods I grew up in. He wasn't OK with the use of the word. That's fine--he should have made that abundantly clear to Incognito and others. But--you're right--it's clear that there was something else going on in the locker room, and that something else is that the perception of Martin as a big weirdo came not only from the way he got along and behaved toward his fellow players, but also (or mostly) from perceptions of him as being not quite a black man.