In BB We Trust

[Joker]

Mo Lewis Rocks rocks!

 

[Joker]

after long study of this recent phenomenon of BB bashing, I've come to the conclusion that the board has been infested with an outbreak of "Steve From Fall River" syndrome.

 

[everlong]

I posted this in another thread but this is probably a better spot for it.

9-7-03 Buffalo 31-0
10-31-04 Pitt 34-20
9-18-05 Carolina 27-17
10-2-05 SD 41-17
10-16-05 Denver 28-20 (Wasn't that close)
11-7-05 Indy 41-20
9-24-06 Denver 17-7
12-10-06 Miami 21-0

Want to know what happened the following weeks? They won. All of the above losses were just as bad and some like the Carolina, Denver (twice) and Miami losses were much, much worse for the offense. For the defense the SD and Indy losses were exponentially worse.

Things I would like to see next week.

1. More selective aggression on defense.
2. More consistent play and cohesion from the O-Line.
3. More dedication to the run.
4. The crowd to become a factor and support the team the way it should.
5. D-Line to generate more push

Lets talk rationally about what needs to get done and forget about who's a koolaid drinker, who's a bandwagon jumper, who's made of glass, etc.

 

[Absurdly Metro]

It absolutely is possible to be critical and trust.
But that isnt what is happening. What is happening is that a fan base (or a vocal part of it) is expousing opinion that there are critical inherent flaws in the franchise, the system, the strategy and the philosophy that has proven to be among the most successful in NFL history.
Brady is getting ripped for his play in the 22nd game after 21 straight wins. I don't care if people say he played like crap. THAT is an assessment. But to openly post doubt that he will ever be effective, or to post as if you understand what is going on inside his head is ludicrous.
I guess what I am saying is assessing what happened on the field is one thing.
But when THEN projecting it to what it will lead to for the rest of the season needs to include being tempered by a history lesson, which is: we have had bigger problems than this, and look at what the results have been.
You are either optimistic or pessimistic, and I personally think its foolish to be pessimistic about this team based on the track record. As soon as the naysayers get one right and our results turn poor, I will start considering that approach. Until then it feels kind of disrespectful and unappreciative to see a fan base that appears to get angry whenever anyone takes an optimistic approach toward an organization that has as successful through more adversity than this (we lost ONE game) and had the tremendous results it has. It just seems like there is a great competition for the I told you so award for the demise of the franchise, and I dont understand fans doing that.

We all love the Pats here Andy. Just as much as you in fact. I don't think anybondy on this board wants to be "right" about the demise of this franchise or in somehow "predicting" that the window might be closing for a team we follow with almost fanatical devotion.

Excuse us for wondering wtf is going on, questioning what kind of team we've actually got THIS year (Pats circa 2002, 2005 or 2001, 2003??) and wanting to discuss it with other Pats fans.

 

[Ring 6]

That's not even the main issue though.

Belichick, like ANY other head coach in the league, isn't on top of every single thing his team does. It's impossible, there's too much to do. He delegates much of it to assistants.

Belichick isn't a mico-manager, though some here try to paint him that way.

Trying to give all blame or credit to Belichick the head coach, is as silly as saying Belichick didn't have any influence when he was rinning rings for Bill Parcells as the Giants coordinator.

Are you basing this on evidence or is this your unsupported understanding? Mike Vrabel was quoted as saying one reason for communicaiton problems may have been the DC waiting for the HC to tell him the call so he could send it in.
I very much disagree that scheme, philosophy and big picture thinking are done autonomously by assistants. The system and the game plans are BB, he does not bring in coordinators to bring their own system. He promotes coordinators to run his system.
Everything I have ever seen says that BB is absolutely a control freak, totally a micromanager, and involved in everything. You suggest the opposite, do you have any sources or evidence?
Your Parcells comment rings hollow as well because Parcells definitely was a guy who delegated especially to BB.

 

[Ring 6]

We all love the Pats here Andy. Just as much as you in fact. I don't think anybondy on this board wants to be "right" about the demise of this franchise or in somehow "predicting" that the window might be closing for a team we follow with almost fanatical devotion.

Excuse us for wondering wtf is going on, questioning what kind of team we've actually got THIS year (Pats circa 2002, 2005 or 2001, 2003??) and wanting to discuss it with other Pats fans.

You can post whatever you want, as can I.
I chose to post that those questioning BB seems to be going against history.
Why is that a problem for you?

 

[Patspsycho]

Are you basing this on evidence or is this your unsupported understanding? Mike Vrabel was quoted as saying one reason for communicaiton problems may have been the DC waiting for the HC to tell him the call so he could send it in.
I very much disagree that scheme, philosophy and big picture thinking are done autonomously by assistants. The system and the game plans are BB, he does not bring in coordinators to bring their own system. He promotes coordinators to run his system.
Everything I have ever seen says that BB is absolutely a control freak, totally a micromanager, and involved in everything. You suggest the opposite, do you have any sources or evidence?
Your Parcells comment rings hollow as well because Parcells definitely was a guy who delegated especially to BB.

Is there a link you can provide that proves BB is a control freak?

 

[Garbanza]

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

Drink away, Andy.....but I cringe everytime you post something while wearing your red/white/blue/silver goggles. You're becoming a jinx (and since you are a history buff, go check out your posts the last few years). Please stop.

 

[mayoclinic]

Things I would like to see next week.

1. More selective aggression on defense.
2. More consistent play and cohesion from the O-Line.
3. More dedication to the run.
4. The crowd to become a factor and support the team the way it should.
5. D-Line to generate more push

Lets talk rationally about what needs to get done and forget about who's a koolaid drinker, who's a bandwagon jumper, who's made of glass, etc.

Nice list. I'd be pretty happy with those.

 

[olschool]

My two cents says, that it's possible that there are some other good coaches in the league, who also want to win, and occasionally they are better than BB.

But, BB has proven to be the best coach the Patriots have ever had.

So I'll go with, In BB I Trust, until he turns into Mike Ditka and trades his whole draft for a Ricky Williams, or retires / leaves.

 

[Boston Boxer]

It has somehow become vogue to consider fans who have confidence in BB blind, ignorant, unthinking homers. While those that question him, doubt him, and expect the worst, are simply being realists.
Consider this:
In the last 8 years"
1 time we lacked talent to compete (2002)
1 time we lost our GOAT QB
In the other 6 seasons with everything else that got in the way, with all of the criticisms of scheme, play calling, coordinators, drafting, etc, etc there were 6 other seasons
5 were at least to the AFFC (4 to the Sb, and 3 SB wins)
1 was a divisional round loss in the year we tried to 3peat when Bruschi had a stroke

Given that we do not lack talent, as in 2002, and Brady is at QB, history says 5/6th of the time we advance at least to the AFCC with a great shot at winning it, and a great shot at winning the next one, and 1/6th of the time, we only advance to the divisional round.

Explain to me again why believing in BB is the unthinking (Koolaid slurping) approach and doubting him is the well thought out reasoned one.

it is because we, as fans, are spoiled. We have become a fan base that freaks out if we lose a game. We are a fan base that gets sucked in by the Boston "doom and gloom" media. There is no reason to doubt BB is doing what is best for the team. His/Pats record speaks for itself, so i see no reason why we should not think he will lead us where we want to go.

We could have done a hellava lot worse in coaches. I think between BB and Kraft, we have been very fortunate...but a little spoiled. Just think, we could be the Lions or Bengals, or the Browns. How do you think those fan bases feel.

 

[Ring 6]

Is there a link you can provide that proves BB is a control freak?

Well, you could read the Education of a Coach, or other books about BB.
Pretty much everything I have ever heard or read about BB is that the central characteristic of his personality is that he tries to know everything about everything and leave no stone unturned.
I would imagine the stories of how he met with Brady every day his first season as a starter, to teach him how to read a defense would be a good starting point. Perhaps Vrabels comment I mentioned before.
Maybe the stories describing how we arrived in NE will a playbook that listed exactly what skillsets and qualities they were looking for in each position on the field, and so much detail that it even diagrammed and described in great detail how to huddle. I kind of thought anyone who had read anything about BB knew he was in control of everything.

 

[Ring 6]

Drink away, Andy.....but I cringe everytime you post something while wearing your red/white/blue/silver goggles. You're becoming a jinx (and since you are a history buff, go check out your posts the last few years). Please stop.

Oh God now my posts affect the outcome of games??
How can I be a jinx when about 6 games into 2000 I recogized that I felt BB had an exceptionally strong approach, system, and philosophy and he has done nothing but reinforce that opinion ever since, (and I have been nothing but positive about him) and we have been the best franchise in the league during that time?

 

[Horace's Ivories]

I unabashedly chug huge torrents of BB koolaid - all flavors - all the time. For exactly the reasons the OP mentioned.

 

[maverick4]

It's funny how indignant some posters here can be over ANY criticism of the team. Their minds are too simplistic to allow that you can still think Belichick is the best ever, and yet still criticize the scheme on offense or defense.

I very much disagree that scheme, philosophy and big picture thinking are done autonomously by assistants. The system and the game plans are BB, he does not bring in coordinators to bring their own system. He promotes coordinators to run his system.
Everything I have ever seen says that BB is absolutely a control freak, totally a micromanager, and involved in everything.
Your Parcells comment rings hollow as well because Parcells definitely was a guy who delegated especially to BB.

You need to read more (or even, just one) books on Bill Belichick. Look it up yourself, I'm not going to do it for you, there are plenty of resources out there even if you just google search it.

Belichick was a micro-manager in Cleveland, and since then has said more than once that he learned from that experience, and delegates and trusts his coordinators to follow his overall vision. We have seen how different the styles have looked under Crennel, Weiss, Mangini, Pees, McDaniels, and now O'Brien. Belichick isn't schizo as you are trying to paint him out to be.

What you are claiming by deduction, is that the 4 delay of game penalties by the offense this past week, are directly because of Belichick, which is ridiculous since it's clearly due to a new coordinator in there.

You have ZERO evidence that Belichick is a micro-manager. Why you keep claiming this, against multiple sources of published evidence, is silly.

 

[slash83]

Nobody should lose faith in a BB team, but I do think the offensive and defensive coordinators are the weakest we have had in a long time. I hope Peas is replaced or demoted after the season, no creativity at all in his play calling.

 

[Ring 6]

It's funny how indignant some posters here can be over ANY criticism of the team. Their minds are too simplistic to allow that you can still think Belichick is the best ever, and yet still criticize the scheme on offense or defense.




You need to read more (or even, just one) books on Bill Belichick. Look it up yourself, I'm not going to do it for you, there are plenty of resources out there even if you just google search it.

Belichick was a micro-manager in Cleveland, and since then has said more than once that he learned from that experience, and delegates and trusts his coordinators to follow his overall vision. We have seen how different the styles have looked under Crennel, Weiss, Mangini, Pees, McDaniels, and now O'Brien. Belichick isn't schizo as you are trying to paint him out to be.

What you are claiming by deduction, is that the 4 delay of game penalties by the offense this past week, are directly because of Belichick, which is ridiculous since it's clearly due to a new coordinator in there.

You have ZERO evidence that Belichick is a micro-manager. Why you keep claiming this, against multiple sources of published evidence, is silly.

This was my first sentence in response to you:
It absolutely is possible to be critical and trust.
Yet now you decide to insult me for my mind being unwilling to accept MY OWN STATEMENT

Just show me all of these sources that say BB runs a country club and sits back and lets his assistants make the decisions.
As I said, everything I read contradicts that except you saying 'No it doesnt'
This team has evolved over a 9 year period. Coordinators are not dictating change.
Your delay of game comment is ridiculous. I dont know if you understand what we are actually discussing. BB is in control of everything about this football team. That doesnt mean he carries out every task.
Yes, he delegates, b ut he delegates assignments, not strategy, scheme, philiosphy and decision making. He coaches the coaches to handle situations the way he has trained them to.
What he learned in Cleveland was that he couldnt do everything himself.
You want that to mean he hands off his offense or defense to the coordinator and lets them do what they want. That is ridiculous. He TEACHES THEM want he wants them to do, and then monitors it.

You are seriously trying to say that the offense we run was developed by McDaniels, independent of BB?????? And since you disagree with the playcalling that BB taught, monitored and endorsed, it must mean that he is ignoring it, because that way you can trash the OC and distance yourself from trashing BB. You are workin way to hard to prove a point no one is going to believe.

By the way, I'm through with the personal insults you are throwing at me. It ends now.

 

[Oswlek]

The moves that aren't great are not mistakes.

It is a grave misunderstanding to think that all NFL moves should be successful.

Not true at all, especially in a business that is based of predictions of human behavior. How will this player adapt from college to the pros? We know how that player played with that team. How will he play in ours? Many variables.

What you need is a philosophy that will yield the greatest number of successes. Once you have that philosophy, it doesn't matter if some or even many of your decisions do not produce. What matters is that your system produces as many as can be expected given the randomness and inexactitude of many of the possible decisions.

The only proof of philosophies is: Does it work? In the case of BB/SP, Polian, etc they work. The fact that some of their decisions did not produce does not mean they were bad decisions. If you never go beyond boundaries, you are operating too conservatively.

The same applies to coaching, to training, to everything, not just in football. Football is just more susceptible to this than, say, buying a used car. When you buy a used car, there are signs most people use for their buying philosophy/process. If the car is clean insdie and out, if it has low mileage, if it is a one-owner car and you know the owner, the chances are that it will be a better buy than a similar car that is filthy inside and out, has high mileage, and is owned by a tattoed 20 year-old living in a slum.

Now, if you buy the clean car and it turns out to need repair after repair, it does not mean your decision-making process was wrong. You were bitten by chance. If someone, like DI, for instance, finds fault and wants you to change your methods, it would be a mistake. Your decision making was sound, even if the clean, low mileage, one-owner car turns out bad and the beater runs maintenance free for years.

The whining and complaining done by DI is hindsight based on happenstance. They are the fathers who will berate their children for being late to get home. "You should have taken Broad Street, not Elm Street. There was an accident on Elm." They don't care that Broad Street is generally the best choice, and will be the best choice next time. Rather than reward the good process used, they use the happenstance result as a means to carp and complain.

It is really really dumb. I'm sure there is a reason for this behavior, but it is still dumb.

This might be the greatest post ever on a football message board.

Certainly the best on this site in a while. Unsuprisingly it was not repsonded to.

 

[Absurdly Metro]

You can post whatever you want, as can I.
I chose to post that those questioning BB seems to be going against history.
Why is that a problem for you?

And I'm sure anyone questioning the defense in 2005, or the quality of our WR's in 2006, or wondering if in 2007 the team had peaked too early would have been going against history too. Problem is those teams had weaknesses others were pointing out that you were all to happy to gloss over with the same refrain you're singing here. We know... trust BB cuz he's got it all planned out and the the things that look like problems now are really not problems because BB, in his infinite wisdom, foresaw them and created contingencies for each.

Here are some of your similar posts from years past singing the same old song. Problem is the people with the concerns over the team's play were eventually shown to have been right. Your blind optimism? Not so much.

2005 2006 2007

To be fair we could probably go back to the years we won (although I don't think the system goes back that far) and find the same kind of threads with people worrying about the flaws and you castigating them for their lack of faith in BB. Of course you'd have been right in those instances as any of those flaws ultimately did not prove fatal those particular years. Point is there's plenty of "history" where it doesn't all end in glory too.

Idk, maybe the whole thing is really just a crapshoot (the best laid plans of mice and BB notwithstanding).

 

[maverick4]

Just show me all of these sources that say BB runs a country club and sits back and lets his assistants make the decisions.

This team has evolved over a 9 year period. Coordinators are not dictating change.

BB is in control of everything about this football team. That doesnt mean he carries out every task.
Yes, he delegates, b ut he delegates assignments, not strategy, scheme, philiosphy and decision making. He coaches the coaches to handle situations the way he has trained them to.

You are seriously trying to say that the offense we run was developed by McDaniels, independent of BB?????? And since you disagree with the playcalling that BB taught, monitored and endorsed, it must mean that he is ignoring it, because that way you can trash the OC and distance yourself from trashing BB.

No need to exaggerate/twist what I said. So many contradictions in the above post, not sure where to start....

1. The very different offensive and defensive styles we have seen from 2000-present have not all been dictated merely by our personnel talent, or dictated by Belichick in minute detail. If it were, teams would not be regularly trying to hire our assistants as coaches, for being robots. It is understood by most NFL owners and GM's (but not by yourself) that the Pats coordinators who have had success and landed other jobs, had a degree of autonomy (and thus credit) in their success.

2. Belichick deciding to talk with Urban Meyer about his offense, and instructing McDaniels to incorporate/adapt it for the NFL, is completely different from McDaniels or O'Brien deciding to use exclusively one or two formations, over and over.

3. It makes no sense how you can attribute skill/success to McDaniels or Weiss from their past achievements, and then in the next breadth say they were merely robots executing what micro-manager Belichick instructed in excruciating detail. Either they had some skill/talent themselves as coordinators, or they were robots. You can't claim both.

4. It also makes no sense to take credit away from Pioli as a general manager.

Basically, you can't keep claiming Bill Belichick is an obsessed micro-manager managing a bunch of robots under him, and then also praise Pioli/McDaniels/Weiss/Crennel/etc for being good coordinators or general managers.