Idle thoughts...Setting the record straight

[tanked_as_usual]

Let's review again.

Vollmer, Butler, Edelman and Ingram seem like a pretty good start to production from a draft, with strong possibilities from Pryor, Tate and McKenzie). We overpaid for Chung, but he is a reasonable special teamer. It seems likely that we busted on Ohrnberger and Brace, but we'll see; perhaps one or both will be contribute as a backup.
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not sure how you can say strong possibilities for tate and mckenzie....right now, mckenzie is on a parallel track with crable......he may turn out differently, but that's all you have right now. as for tate, at least he stepped onto the field.......right now he has not shown anything as to his WR skills

 

[mgteich]

You are reacting to the word "strong". Perhaps I should not ahve used it. I merely mean that there is good chance that they will be contributers in the next couple of years.

Crable tried and failed twice. McKenzie has yet to try. I see McKenzie as a backup ILB and Tate as at a #4 receiver and a returner. That's OK for me, given all the rest we got out of the draft. Either COULD be more.

not sure how you can say strong possibilities for tate and mckenzie....right now, mckenzie is on a parallel track with crable......he may turn out differently, but that's all you have right now. as for tate, at least he stepped onto the field.......right now he has not shown anything as to his WR skills

 

[tanked_as_usual]

You are reacting to the word "strong". Perhaps I should not ahve used it. I merely mean that there is good chance that they will be contributers in the next couple of years.

Crable tried and failed twice. McKenzie has yet to try. I see McKenzie as a backup ILB and Tate as at a #4 receiver and a returner. That's OK for me, given all the rest we got out of the draft. Either COULD be more.

if crable failed as a rookie through injury, then mckenzie did too

if they haven't done a thing, then you can't really pencil them in for anything.

 

[mgteich]

Believe as you will. I CHOOSE to believe that neither Tate or McKenzie will be injured again before the season starts.

if crable failed as a rookie through injury, then mckenzie did too

if they haven't done a thing, then you can't really pencil them in for anything.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Believe as you will. I CHOOSE to believe that neither Tate or McKenzie will be injured again before the season starts.

that could very well be.....but to count on them as any kind of regular part of the rotation is premature at this point

 

[Deus Irae]

I think you are not being realistic in your complaints on the draft. Just because they didn't have any "day one" starts from rookies (not a given on a mature team) those 8 guys DID get a lot of play over the season including multiple starts by Volmer, Edelman, and Pryor.

I'd be more patient with Chung, since it is clear (at least to me) that playing safety in this defense is not one year learn. Besides he added value in that he was an excellent special teamer all year.

If you think Volmer was just a necessary replacement for a struggling Kascar, then you must have missed his effort vs Freeney when the Pats played the Colts. This kid is the real deal, and you know it.

Tate and McKenzie were injured for the better part of the year. I think most fans were excited about their POTENTIAL, though we will have to wait for the actual results. Injuries can't be anticipated when you are drafting. They were universally considered good picks, especially in the 3rd round.

Before last years's draft, I would have told you that the Pats should trade half of their picks into the future because there was no room on this roster for 8 rookies. Well there was. This past draft and the next 2 coming up are going to lay the foundation of the Pats going into Brady's retirement, in about 6 years

This has turned more into a good football discussion rather than rancorous rants. Like in most conflicts there are usually more areas where people agree than disagree. The problem is that some tend to focus on those smaller areas of disagreement and shut out any possibility that there is alternative opinion, that might be different, yet still be based on reasonable assumptions. In fact they deny the possibility that there can even be 2 differing opinions that are based on reasonable assumptions.

Clearly you and I don't fall into that category....I hope .

I'd love to go deeper into your lengthy reply, but work calls and I must answer. Perhaps later.

I actually like last year's draft. It has the potential to be an excellent group, even though people went over the top with their praise of it in comparison to its on-the-field accomplishments. I was simply addressing your claim regarding "by any measure" in the context of your commentary about myths v. facts.

 

[Coach42]

the ILB's were poor in coverage....I think they pursue well and arepretty fair in manning up with someone, but the LB's (both inside and out) have next to zero instinctive capacity....there's confusion almost every time the opposing offense changed things up at the line.....

that siad, it was good to see later in the season that the coaches were letting the LB's move around, but there was no method to the madness, simply throwing the kitchen sink at trying to get to the QB....worked sometimes, but the coverage was still horrible

I will grant you that the OLB need some major work but the ILB's have been fine. You might notice on those numbers you posted the production of the ILB's have dropped since 03 the same year the Polian pass interference rules were instituted. It is no longer realistic under the current rules to expect a 250 lbs. linebacker to be able to drop back in coverage with RB's, TE's, and slot WR's. They just can't do it and that's not limited to just the Patriots that is a league wide issue. That is why you see the Pats using more 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 than the standard 3-4 that was so effective for the superbowl years. So again, yes, under the current rules I think our ILB's are fine.

 

[Rob0729]

I actually like last year's draft. It has the potential to be an excellent group, even though people went over the top with their praise of it in comparison to its on-the-field accomplishments. I was simply addressing your claim regarding "by any measure" in the context of your commentary about myths v. facts.

I liked last years draft. Both Vollmer, Edelman, and Ingram were out of the park homeruns based on their draft position and contributions. Butler showed a lot of promise, but he has to realize it. Chung showed flashes. Ohrnberger and Pryor are good rotation guys which isn't bad for their draft position.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I will grant you that the OLB need some major work but the ILB's have been fine. You might notice on those numbers you posted the production of the ILB's have dropped since 03 the same year the Polian pass interference rules were instituted. It is no longer realistic under the current rules to expect a 250 lbs. linebacker to be able to drop back in coverage with RB's, TE's, and slot WR's. They just can't do it and that's not limited to just the Patriots that is a league wide issue. That is why you see the Pats using more 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 than the standard 3-4 that was so effective for the superbowl years. So again, yes, under the current rules I think our ILB's are fine.

IMO, the ILB's are not fine.....and the ILB production did not drop off because of a rule emphasis to deal with DB contact on WR's

there were plenty of ILB INT's in the NFL last year.....just none by the pats......ILB's need to make plays, not just tackles

 

[Coach42]

IMO, the ILB's are not fine.....and the ILB production did not drop off because of a rule emphasis to deal with DB contact on WR's

there were plenty of ILB INT's in the NFL last year.....just none by the pats......ILB's need to make plays, not just tackles

Really? Because the stats that you posted seem to say that production has dropped off since the rule emphasis change. Take a look.

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Really? Because the stats that you posted seem to say that production has dropped off since the rule emphasis change. Take a look.

I did take a look......I'm don't believe its the cause....more coincidence than anything

their recognition is very mediocre, and way too often are tehy either out of the play or a couple of steps behind.....since mayo and guyton both have decent speed, it has to be their instincts and recognition that is the problem.

maybe 3rd year is a charm, but they really haven't made any big plays

 

[Coach42]

I did take a look......I'm don't believe its the cause....more coincidence than anything

their recognition is very mediocre, and way too often are tehy either out of the play or a couple of steps behind.....since mayo and guyton both have decent speed, it has to be their instincts and recognition that is the problem.

maybe 3rd year is a charm, but they really haven't made any big plays

I'll grant you that they haven't made big plays yet, but keep in mind it took Bruschi until his 4th season to even become a starter and make his first pick and 6th season to force his first fumble.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'll grant you that they haven't made big plays yet, but keep in mind it took Bruschi until his 4th season to even become a starter and make his first pick and 6th season to force his first fumble.

Peace Coach, don't you know all players entering the NFL are All-Pro performers who should never need time to develop? Clearly Mayo and Guyton are rejects Bill found in the scrap bin for not earning Hall of Fame votes in their first two seasons. :snob:

 

[Patspsycho]

their recognition is very mediocre, and way too often are tehy either out of the play or a couple of steps behind.....since mayo and guyton both have decent speed, it has to be their instincts and recognition that is the problem.

They are still thinking too much. It'll take a while before they see the play before it happens.

 

[Patspsycho]

keep in mind it took Bruschi until his 4th season to even become a starter and make his first pick and 6th season to force his first fumble.

I've been preaching this until I'm blue in the face, nobody is listening or remembers.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've been preaching this until I'm blue in the face, nobody is listening or remembers.

Ahem.

......

 

[tanked_as_usual]

I'll grant you that they haven't made big plays yet, but keep in mind it took Bruschi until his 4th season to even become a starter and make his first pick and 6th season to force his first fumble.

oh, I understand that.....by no means I was saying that the pats should give up on either of them, but just having mckenzie as a backup this year is not going to make this unit what it needs to be......

need someone who can cover until these guys gain more experience

 

[tanked_as_usual]

Peace Coach, don't you know all players entering the NFL are All-Pro performers who should never need time to develop? Clearly Mayo and Guyton are rejects Bill found in the scrap bin for not earning Hall of Fame votes in their first two seasons. :snob:

there's a drame queen in the box of rocks