I Suspect The Roster Is Almost Set

[DaBruinz]

Sorry for being a Slater Hater but hes not making this team

Why wouldn't the best gunner and 2nd best special teams player that the Patriots have make the team? Did he have a couple of pre-season screw-ups? Yep.. But isn't that what pre-season is for??? To work out the kinks...

 

[pats1]

Hey Box - Just a little piece of info. During Belichick's time as a HC in New England, he's never cut anyone who was a 4th round pick or higher during their first training camp. I don't see Ohrnberger being cut to keep either Wendell or Connolly. Yes, there is a first time for everything, but I think that Ohrnberger has outplayed both Wendell and Connolly. But that is just me.

Also, Ninkovich is not PS eligible because he spent the entire 2007 season on Miami's 53 man roster.

Ninkovich is practice squad eligible. He was on the 53-man roster that entire season, but he was only active for 4 games. You must be active for 9 or more games in a single season to lose practice squad eligibility.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't think of myself as a "Slater Hater" but I just haven't been all that impressed with Slater as the uber-STer that some claim him to be. I've seen some nice plays, but also several major mistakes.

The fact is that the FO chose not to resign our best gunner and ST player from the past 2 years, Kelly Washington. Slater's not in Washington's class on ST as far as I can see, and Washington had more potential as a WR than Slater will ever have as either a WR or S. The Pats obviously felt that Aiken could step up and fill Washington's roll for a cheaper price. I can understand that as a business decision, even though I personally regretted it. But letting Washington go does provide some evidence that "being one of our top two gunners and our best special teams tackler" may not be sufficient to stay on the team.

I suspect that Slater will make the team. But I personally think that we could replace his contribution on special teams without that much difficulty, and I'd rather give the last roster spot to someone who might actually contribute on defense.

WOW, you really put a ton of value on Washington's first year and very little on his second..

During Washington's second year with the team, he wasn't nearly as good. In fact, Slater outplayed him by a wide margin. Slater was a better gunner, better tackler and was involved on ALL 5 special teams units...Washington was only involved on 4.

People say "i'd rather give the spot to someone who might actually contribute on offense or defense", I ask you about Larry Izzo. Izzo may have taken some snaps on defense, but I don't think he actually ever contributed.. Kelley Washington didn't contribute on offense. One would think that with his height, he could have, at least, contributed in the Red Zone.

As for the Pats letting Washington go, you have some facts incorrect. Lets review the actual sequence of events regarding Washington's contracts. After the 2007 season, the Patriots chose to not pick up the option on Washington's contract. This made Washington a Free Agent. Washington was re-signed to a 2 year contract. Yet, after the 2008 season was over, the Patriots chose to CUT him rather than bring him into camp. The second year of Washington's contract wasn't that much. It was a vet minimum contract with 225K in signing bonus amortization, so the idea that his being cut this time as being a financial decision really doesn't fly. To me it says one of three things. Either Washington didn't perform up to expectations, Aiken and Slater outplayed Washington, or that Washington asked to be released because he was no longer one of the top two gunners with Aiken and Slater on the team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ninkovich is practice squad eligible. He was on the 53-man roster that entire season, but he was only active for 4 games. You must be active for 9 or more games in a single season to lose practice squad eligibility.

Pats1, The ACTIVE Roster is the 53 man roster. The Game Day Roster is the 45 man roster. One of the other stipulations that makes you inelligible for the 53 man roster is having been on the active roster for the entire season.

NFL Roster Rules | Answerbag.com

NFL roster rules also allow for the formation of an eight-man practice squad. Players who have accrued no more than one season and been on the active roster for no more than eight games can join this squad and practice with the team, though they are not eligible to play with the active roster and may be signed by another NFL team at any time

By being on Miami's 53 man roster for all of 2007, Ninkovich accrued one season of NFL experience. And that would make him inelligible for the Practice Squad.

If you have another source that says differently, please share it.. Unlike some posters on here, I can admit when I'm wrong.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Slater is a good special teams player but 15 yard penalties two

weeks in a row make him a liability. He screws up too much.

Re-watch those two penalties. In both cases the ball was tailing off to the side and the PR moved into Slater. It's an easy fix, have Slater aim to stop 'in front' of the PR rather than to his outside shoulder to keep him out of the path of the PR chaing Hanson's curveball.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Hey Box - Just a little piece of info. During Belichick's time as a HC in New England, he's never cut anyone who was a 4th round pick or higher during their first training camp. I don't see Ohrnberger being cut to keep either Wendell or Connolly. Yes, there is a first time for everything, but I think that Ohrnberger has outplayed both Wendell and Connolly. But that is just me.

Also, Ninkovich is not PS eligible because he spent the entire 2007 season on Miami's 53 man roster.

There's lots of things BB has never done...until he's done them. I'm just going on what I can see from the TV and what I've read from the camp reports.
-- Wendell has been Neal's #1 back-up from camp reports, and watching him and Connelly swap off C/G duty in the games supports those reports.
-- Further, I firmly disagree with your assessment of Wendell's play in preseason, he's looked very good and I have him slightly ahead of Connelly.
-- Connelly has taken over as 1st team Wedge. Friday he and Baker were the wedge and they looked strong - prior to that Hochstein and A. Smith had been the 1st team wedge, with Connelly and D. Thomas the second...I think Scott O'Brien has found his wedge unit - when combined with Slater as lead blocker they sprung Maroney for his nice return on the KO do-over.
-- Orhnberger looks like a rookie who has lost a large chunk of camp, I still need to watch the Redskin's game I recorded, but watching the small window on my computer Friday didn't give me any ground to change my assessment.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Pats1, The ACTIVE Roster is the 53 man roster. The Game Day Roster is the 45 man roster. One of the other stipulations that makes you inelligible for the 53 man roster is having been on the active roster for the entire season.

NFL Roster Rules | Answerbag.com



By being on Miami's 53 man roster for all of 2007, Ninkovich accrued one season of NFL experience. And that would make him inelligible for the Practice Squad.

If you have another source that says differently, please share it.. Unlike some posters on here, I can admit when I'm wrong.

Even reading the CBA, it's not real clear, but I think if he was inactive for more than 8 games, even if on the 53, he's eligible for PS. did he get the accrued season though?? The ''or' would seem to make him eligible.
http://www.vertgame.com/rules_defs.html.

Practice Squad Eligibility
A team may establish a practice squad of no more than eight* players who do not have an accrued season of free agency credit or who were on the 45-player active list for less than nine regular season games during their only accrued season. A player cannot participate on the practice squad for more than two seasons.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Expanded from five at the 2004 league meeting. The limit of eight is subject to yearly review by the owners.



NFLPA 2006 - 2012 CBA, Article XXXIV Practice Squads, Section 4. Eligibility:
a) The practice squad shall consist of the following players, provided that they have not served more than two previous seasons on a Practice Squad: (i) players who do not have an Accrued Season of NFL experience; and (ii) free agent players who were on the Active List for fewer than nine regular season games during their only Accrued Season(s). An otherwise eligible player may be a practice squad player for a third season only if the Club by which he is employed that season has at least fifty-three players on its Active/Inactive List during the entire period of his employment.


Article XXXIII of the NFL CBA, Squad Size
[FONT=&quot]Section 1. Active List: For each regular season, the Active List limit will be 45 players per Club[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. This limit may not be reduced by the Clubs for the duration of this Agreement; provided, however, that individual Clubs may carry less than 45 players on their Active Lists during the regular season, but at no time less than 42.[/FONT]

 

[DaBruinz]

Even reading the CBA, it's not real clear, but I think if he was inactive for more than 8 games, even if on the 53, he's eligible for PS. did he get the accrued season though?? That would seem to make him ineligible...
http://www.vertgame.com/rules_defs.html.

Practice Squad Eligibility
A team may establish a practice squad of no more than eight* players who do not have an accrued season of free agency credit or who were on the 45-player active list for less than nine regular season games during their only accrued season. A player cannot participate on the practice squad for more than two seasons.
·Expanded from five at the 2004 league meeting. The limit of eight is subject to yearly review by the owners.



NFLPA 2006 - 2012 CBA, Article XXXIV Practice Squads, Section 4. Eligibility:
a) The practice squad shall consist of the following players, provided that they have not served more than two previous seasons on a Practice Squad: (i) players who do not have an Accrued Season of NFL experience; and (ii) free agent players who were on the Active List for fewer than nine regular season games during their only Accrued Season(s). An otherwise eligible player may be a practice squad player for a third season only if the Club by which he is employed that season has at least fifty-three players on its Active/Inactive List during the entire period of his employment.


Article XXXIII of the NFL CBA, Squad Size
[FONT=&quot]Section 1. Active List: For each regular season, the Active List limit will be 45 players per Club[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. This limit may not be reduced by the Clubs for the duration of this Agreement; provided, however, that individual Clubs may carry less than 45 players on their Active Lists during the regular season, but at no time less than 42.[/FONT]

Just one other thing of note. Ninkovich is being paid as if he has 3 credited seasons... So, that also leads me to believe he's not eligible.. But, will have to wait and see.

 

[patfanken]

Either Washington didn't perform up to expectations, Aiken and Slater outplayed Washington, or that Washington asked to be released because he was no longer one of the top two gunners with Aiken and Slater on the team.

There is a 3rd reason. Its possible that Washington opted out because he wanted at least a shot at catching a few balls, and that wasn't going to happen here.

 

[DaBruinz]

There is a 3rd reason. Its possible that Washington opted out because he wanted at least a shot at catching a few balls, and that wasn't going to happen here.

I kinda rolled that into the asking for his release since he wasn't a top gunner anymore. I should have been more specific. Thanks PFK..

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There is a 3rd reason. Its possible that Washington opted out because he wanted at least a shot at catching a few balls, and that wasn't going to happen here.

Well, he was kind of expensive too, and he missed a bunch of time with an injury.

 

[bucky]

There's lots of things BB has never done...until he's done them.

Exactly, like releasing a 3rd round pick in his second TC!

I actually think Ohrenberger has a roster spot unless he ends up on IR. BB said after the draft that Ohernberger had a chance to compete for PT right off the bat. He's not going to give up on him after 3 weeks.

If you go on the assumption that Ohrenberger is not going to make the 45 mad game day roster, then he's basically competing for the last couple of roster spots with guys from all positions. Guys like Crable, Smith, BJGE, Hoyer, etc. If BB has to cut a guy, which one do you think it'll be - a first year 4th round pick who's shown nothing because he's been practicing for only 3 weeks, or a 2nd year 3rd round pick who's shown nothing because he's hurt more often than not?

 

[mgteich]

I really don't think that Belichick is going to trade the player he gave up Hobbs in order to draft. It is too early to give up on Orhnberger. I prefer IR to the other options.

Orhnberger hasn't shown much. We need to have an active backup center. He's not ready for that role. So the open question is whether to keep him or keep some combination of Connolly, Wendell and a veteran still to be signed. I believe that the best scenario for Ohrnberger would be for Belichick to sign a vet and keep him as a developmental player, given that we have no guards signed for 2010. Belichick tried once with Johnson. That didn't work out. Perhaps Belichick will try again.

I suppose it is possible for Ohrnberger to make the squad with Wendell or Connolly as the Game Day backup.

Exactly, like releasing a 3rd round pick in his second TC!

I actually think Ohrenberger has a roster spot unless he ends up on IR. BB said after the draft that Ohernberger had a chance to compete for PT right off the bat. He's not going to give up on him after 3 weeks.

If you go on the assumption that Ohrenberger is not going to make the 45 mad game day roster, then he's basically competing for the last couple of roster spots with guys from all positions. Guys like Crable, Smith, BJGE, Hoyer, etc. If BB has to cut a guy, which one do you think it'll be - a first year 4th round pick who's shown nothing because he's been practicing for only 3 weeks, or a 2nd year 3rd round pick who's shown nothing because he's hurt more often than not?

 

[pats1]

Just one other thing of note. Ninkovich is being paid as if he has 3 credited seasons... So, that also leads me to believe he's not eligible.. But, will have to wait and see.

Credited seasons are determined by games on the 53-man roster (3). Practice squad eligibility is determined by games on the "active list," as the CBA terms it, which is also known as the 45-man roster. I had an extensive discussion with Mike Reiss on this subject over the offseason in regards to Gutierrez. We both knew beforehand that PS eligibility is determined by games on the 45-man roster (<9), so our discussion was centered around whether Gutierrez's games as a 3rd QB (not 45-man roster but suited up for game) counted; he confirmed through an NFL source they did not and corrected his story that at first said Gutierrez was not eligible.

Pats1, The ACTIVE Roster is the 53 man roster. The Game Day Roster is the 45 man roster. One of the other stipulations that makes you inelligible for the 53 man roster is having been on the active roster for the entire season.

By being on Miami's 53 man roster for all of 2007, Ninkovich accrued one season of NFL experience. And that would make him inelligible for the Practice Squad.

If you have another source that says differently, please share it.. Unlike some posters on here, I can admit when I'm wrong.

Accrued seasons themselves have no bearing on practice squad eligibility. We established this in a thread around this time last year looking at PS eligibility; guys like Yates and Shoate had 3-4 accrued seasons but were still practice squad eligible, simply because they were not active for at least 9 games in a single season. We also determined that the unclear wording of the CBA ("for no more than nine games in any accrued season(s)") meant that the active games were not aggregated; i.e. nine active games over two seasons would not disqualify you. We used the example of Adimchinobe Echemandu as an example. The forum search is messed up with the database problems so I can't dig up that thread right now.

In short, the source you quoted and PatsFaninPhilly are wrong in saying that having an accrued season disqualifies you. The CBA wording is unclear on that, but in a similar thread to this last year, we realized that the wording in the CBA meant that as long you haven't been on the 45-man roster for 9 or more games in any season, you are eligible for the PS; Yates was used as a prime example for this.

Ninkovich is eligible.

Wheatley, Rogers, Crable, Adams, Wendell, Connolly, Ortiz, and Taylor are the other non-rookies that are eligible.

Green-Ellis, Slater, Ventrone, McGowan, and S. Williams are not eligible.

 

[captain stone]

I disagree. You had it right the first time - one OL and 2 LBs (including Crable, who I really don't see going on IR unless he truly has a season-ending injury - that would probably be the kiss of death for his career, and the FO thought too much of him to give up on him this quickly). I still think Lenon makes the 53 man squad. I'd personally take Ninkovitch over Alexander, who barely qualifies as a JAG IMHO.

Please tell me what the evidence is that Slater is a "top gunner" far above and beyond what others can bring to the position. Just because he has some experience there, I'm far from convinced that he brings more than McGowan or Chung would bring opposite Aiken. There's plenty of guys who could capably fill that role, as well as backup kick returner.

I agree, esp. about Matty The Penalty Machine Slater.

 

[captain stone]

I don't think of myself as a "Slater Hater" but I just haven't been all that impressed with Slater as the uber-STer that some claim him to be. I've seen some nice plays, but also several major mistakes.

The fact is that the FO chose not to resign our best gunner and ST player from the past 2 years, Kelly Washington. Slater's not in Washington's class on ST as far as I can see, and Washington had more potential as a WR than Slater will ever have as either a WR or S. The Pats obviously felt that Aiken could step up and fill Washington's roll for a cheaper price. I can understand that as a business decision, even though I personally regretted it. But letting Washington go does provide some evidence that "being one of our top two gunners and our best special teams tackler" may not be sufficient to stay on the team.

I suspect that Slater will make the team. But I personally think that we could replace his contribution on special teams without that much difficulty, and I'd rather give the last roster spot to someone who might actually contribute on defense.

I completely agree. I'd rather have Ventrone & McGowan than Slater.

 

[crowell33]

Sure there will be an injury-related decision or two. We might bring in players from other teams to fill the last three spots. Carter and/or a cut down from another team seems possible. And sure we could trade a TE or and OL.

But this is only about the final touches. We could cut down to 48 players that most would agree to now, with Hodel and Ingam fighting for the 49th spot, and O'Callaghan and Britt fighting for the 50th spot.

HOW MANY OF US HAVE THE ROSTER MUCH DIFFERENT FOR THE FIRST 50?

OFFENSE (24)
QB Brady, O'Connell
RB Maroney, Taylor, Faulk, Morris
WR Moss, Welker, Galloway, Edelman, Aiken, Lewis
TE Baker, Watson, Thomas
OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Orhnberger, Vollmer, Hochstein, O'Callghan/Britt

DEFENSE (23)
DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Brace, Wright, Pryor
DE/OLB Burgress, Banta-Cain
OLB Thomas, Woods, Crable
ILB Mayo, Guyton, Bruschi
CB Bodden, Wilhite, Springs, Butler, Wheatley
S Meriweather, Sanders, Chung

SPECIALISTS (3)
K Gostkowski
P Hanson
LS Ingram/Hodel

FINAL THREE (3)
To be determined (my personal choices as of now are McGowan, Walter and Lenon)

PUP
WR Tate
OT LeVoir

IR
LB McKenzie

Your off to a rough start. You have O'Connell as the second string and Hoyer and Walter getting cut. Turns out O'Connell would have been the fourth string. Now Bruschi. Buckle up, we're just getting started. My guess is that the next crow you are about to eat is named Ben Jarvis Green Ellis.

 

[mayoclinic]

Your off to a rough start. You have O'Connell as the second string and Hoyer and Walter getting cut. Turns out O'Connell would have been the fourth string. Now Bruschi. Buckle up, we're just getting started. My guess is that the next crow you are about to eat is named Ben Jarvis Green Ellis.

That's not particularly fair to MgT - there's no crow to be eaten. MgT's list was solid based on how things projected at the time. He's revised his list a dozen times since the 8/18 OP as the preseason has shaped up.

O'Connell was clearly the favorite for the #2 QB spot going in to the preseason, and was still the frontrunner at the time of the OP. It became clear fair early in the preseason that O'Connell was not doing well at winning the #2 spot and a lot of people (including MgT, who revised his list later on in this thread to include 3 QBs with O'Connell the #3) expected him to be the #3 QB behind Brady and Walter (or someone else), but no one had a crystal ball predicted that O'Connell would be cut. I was shocked when it happened, and I would take a hard look before trusting anyone who claims to have predicted it.

BJGE may make the roster or he may not. I wouldn't really want to put much money on either side right now. He could make it if Morris goes on IR, or make it outright if BB decides to keep RBs. I'd personally go with 3 QBs and 4 RBs, with LawFirm the RB left out assuming Morris can play, but I wouldn't be shocked to have it work out differently.

Bruschi clearly had little left in the tank and many of us felt he was on the bubble. But with his history, no one was going out on a limb and outright predicting that he would be cut or would retire. It was always a possibility, and it's probably for the best that it's happened, but certainly no one should be "eating crow" because of it.

I fully expect a few more surprises before September 5. But MgT's done as good a job as anyone of articulating the gray areas of the roster, and I don't see any reason to take pot shots at him.

 

[mgteich]

We have an unsettled quarterback situation.

You agree with Wendell, O'Callaghan and Lenon. We have one more linebacker and the final spot. You have Crable over Alexander and Green-Ellis over Slater for the final spots. While I disagree, these choices seems fine. It does seem possible that we'll sign a veteran center and give him one of the OL spots, perhaps even with orhnberger going to IR.

With you all the way here. The last 5 are tough.
Barring an injury to a WR I see Tate going to IR. Even if Tate were physically able to play without camp or OTA's a rookie receiver is pretty useless. When LeVoir comes off Pup O'callahan will go.
================================
THE LAST FIVE
"My choices are Wendell, O'Callaghan, Lenon, Bruschi and Slater.
That leaves out Crable, Alexander, BJGE, Smith, Connolly, Ventrone, Nunn, Williams, and Ninkovitch"
==================================================
I agree with Wendell & O'Callaghan for the OL slots, until LeVoir returns.

Have seen enough in practice to decide which 2 of the 4 LB's on the bubble to keep, Bruschi has been poor in the PreSeason game so far, we have Seau on speed dial in the event of injury (I suspect Tedy B could be on speed dials also), Lenon seemed pretty good solid than the fake out by Campbell, hate to give up on Crable. I think Tully can fill Alexanders role on ST and bring something to the LB slot also.

I see the decision being between Bruschi & Crable for the last LB spot. This is lighter than we have been at LB before but with the amount of nickle we will play and some 4-3 mixed in, less need for 9-10 LB's.


I would like to make a case for BJGE over Slater here. We have the oldest group of RB's in the league with Taylor, Faulk and Morris on the wrong side of 30 and Maroney hasn't been the most durable guy in the league either. Morris has also missed time each season also. While a JAg he knows the system and is more valuable than Slater IMO.

 

[mgteich]

Everyone had O'Connell as the 2nd string. I was one of those who questioned that decision last year, wanting a veteran backup to the chosen Cassell, although I would have preferred a veteran like Garcia even ahead of Cassell. This year, I begged for a veteran addition from the beginning and celebrated the signing of Walter. I would now celebrate a trade for another veteran, although I would be fine with Walter and Hoyer. I am not the one on this board who has been celebrating how great O'Connell was and that we didn't need a #3 if he was our #2.

We all have agreed that it was very difficult to choose the last couple of linebackers because of the injuries to Crable and Lenon and because Bruschi looks worse in each game. This has been a developing story over the last month. I have favored Lenon since he got here. We'll see in a week.

Criticize if you wish. I can only say that you are criticizing us all: Reiss, me, mayo, patchick and many others who agreed on at least 49 roster spots two weeks ago. We all recognized that Belichick could decide differently. Hochstein, Bruschi and O'Connell are now gone.

With regard to Green-Ellis, perhaps we will carry five running back for the first time in memory, perhaps we won't. Many here favor Green-Ellis over Morris. Many here favor him over Maroney. Unless Morris remains injured, I personally think that this position is short-sighted. However, in the end, I would not be disappointed if Belichick decided to keep Green-Ellis. What his backers need to know is that he will be inactive in almost every game.

Your off to a rough start. You have O'Connell as the second string and Hoyer and Walter getting cut. Turns out O'Connell would have been the fourth string. Now Bruschi. Buckle up, we're just getting started. My guess is that the next crow you are about to eat is named Ben Jarvis Green Ellis.