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I Suspect The Roster Is Almost Set


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I don't think he does "a ton of things" period. He undoubtedly can do more than Faulk or Maroney on special teams but are there not other players who can fill the same roles and do it just as good if not better? Aiken Lenon, Ninkovitch, Alexander, Jones, Ciurciu, and Tank Williams just to name a few.

Actually, I don't believe either one of those players is a gunner. And I don't believe either one of them can be the lead blocker on kick returns. Then there's the fact that you need more than 1 guy to play ST and make tackles.

I'm on board with Reiss' projection. The only possible changes I'd make - keep O'Callaghan over Alexander. Keep 2 QBs (with Hoyer on PS) and open a roster spot for another position/ST player.
 
THE LAST THREE
Reiss - BJGE, Alexander, Slater
Mayo - O'Callagahan, Crable, Lenon
mgteich - O'Callaghan, Crable, Alexander (or Lenon if he gets on the field)

ISSUES
1) Reiss thinks O'Callaghan deserve a roster spot and want the team to take the risk of Vollmer being the only backup tackle for 6 weeks.
2) Reiss is one of the view pushing BJGE as a 5th RB; if Morris stays injured, we'll see
3) Reiss thinks that Crable won't be on the 53; he could be right, he could be on the IR
4) Alexander is playing well on special teams and OK as the #8 LB at the moment.
5) Lenon can't make the club from the tub.
6) Reiss has Slater slipping into the 53 as a gunner instead of the additional linebacker.

MY BOTTOM LINE
A) We need a 4th OT instead of a 5th RB
B) We need two more backup linebackers (even Alexander and Ninkovitch if need be)


Mike Reiss pretty much agrees as well. Here's his latest take on the final 53:

Projecting the 53, Part II - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

The only differences I see:

1. I keep 9 OLs and 4 RBs instead of Reiss' 8 OLs and 5 RBs, with O'Callaghan getting the nod over BJGE (a spot which will eventually go to LeVoir anyway).

2. I agree Alex Smith is the odd TE out as of right now, but I still think it's not over and Smith could get the last TE spot over Dave Thomas.

3. I think Crable is still a lock to make the team, and Alexander gets bumped.

4. I think Lenon gets the last defensive spot over Slater.
 
THE LAST THREE
Reiss - BJGE, Alexander, Slater
Mayo - O'Callagahan, Crable, Lenon
mgteich - O'Callaghan, Crable, Alexander (or Lenon if he gets on the field)

ISSUES
1) Reiss thinks O'Callaghan deserve a roster spot and want the team to take the risk of Vollmer being the only backup tackle for 6 weeks.
2) Reiss is one of the view pushing BJGE as a 5th RB; if Morris stays injured, we'll see
3) Reiss thinks that Crable won't be on the 53; he could be right, he could be on the IR
4) Alexander is playing well on special teams and OK as the #8 LB at the moment.
5) Lenon can't make the club from the tub.
6) Reiss has Slater slipping into the 53 as a gunner instead of the additional linebacker.

MY BOTTOM LINE
A) We need a 4th OT instead of a 5th RB
B) We need two more backup linebackers (even Alexander and Ninkovitch if need be)

I'm honored to be included, and agree with your bottom line. I think that injuries will have a lot to do with who the last 2 LBs are. If Crable goes on IR and Lenon can't get out of the tub then that will open up spots for others, but I still see Crable and Lenon having the inside track if able to play.
 
With BB using 2 RB's in a game per various situations, (goal line, 3rd down, etc) I think all it'd take for BJGE to see some playing time again in the regular season is 2 dinged up backs.

In other words, no one would want to see Faulk as the last resort of an every down back, couple that with Maroney possibly continuing to be somewhat ineffective (variable yet to be determined), and an injury or 2 to either one of Taylor/Morris.

I agree w/ everyone about the serious need for a running game, not only to take some pressure off of Brady, but for 'down the stretch' Nov/Dec weather too. (not to mention predictability issues) I think the chances of at least 2 dinged up RB's is high, and this is why I think there's a need for 5 RB's.

Where to free up the spot is the big debate, IMO. I was sold on only 2 QB's last week, but that has changed. I don't like the thought of having only 1 OT as a backup for the first 6 wks, and I like McGowan a lot, and Ventrone over Slater. But these are good problems to have, and I can't wait to see how it all pans out in 2-3 wks. It'll be key to watch the Morris, Crable and Lenon injuries to see everything fall into place.
 
It does seem as though RB is one of our biggest long-term areas of need. Faulk is 33 and his contract is up after 2009. Taylor and Morris are in their 30's and their contracts, along with that of Maroney, are up after 2010. And we seem to have moved further and further away from a power running game and become more of a finesse team, which I think could come back to bite us big time.

We seem fairly set for 2009, but for 2010 and beyond I would like to see us address the RB position in a major way. Someone like Jonathan Dwyer from Georgia Tech could revitalize our power running game and do wonders for Maroney, who was probably most productive when used as a change of pace back behind Corey Dillon, and is at his best when working in space. IF (and these are big if's) (1) Burgess works out as a pass-rusher and can be re-signed, (2) the key members of the DL are re-signed, and (3) the young OLs continue to develop, then I could see a power RB being our biggest need for the next offseason.

I wish that Bill had used one of his 4 6th/7th-rounders (I wouldn't even have been too disappointed if it had been the 5th) on Rashad Jennings from Liberty.

I had hoped that he would've signed (for a very reasonable deal, as it turned out) Mewelde Moore before last season.

I was shocked (justifiably, as usual) that Justice Hairston was drafted in '07 when DeShawn Wynn, Darius Walker, Selvin Young & Pierre Woods' daddy Ahmad Bradshaw were all still available. I also preferred the younger Justin Griffith to the older, slower & inferior-blocking Sammy Morris.

And I shudder to mention the incomprehensible mistake of Cedric Cobbs instead of Michael Turner.

So there have been a few opportunities to invigorate the RB corps with some youth, but some of those opportunities, Bill has chosen not to use; others, he has not used well.
 
Gosh, I didn't realize he was the the only one doing them. If that's the case then he's gotta be one of the most valuable players this team has ever had. And he's only in his 2nd year too. Forget cutting him, we should sign him to a long term deal. There's no way we could ever let him go. He's almost as much of a lock as Brady. Except he's a lot faster and more valuable. We can always find a guy to throw the ball but there is no replacement for what Slater brings to the table. What was I thinking?

);p

Excellent comeback.
 
Your argument is for a fullback, not a fifth running back.

We do NOT need a running back in goal line situations. We need a fullback. Belichick has apparently chosen to use Hochstein in that role instead of signing a fullback who would also be a blocker on the special teams units, as we have had for a couple of years in Evans. The backup gameday OT could also be candidate to be a goalline fullback.

You talk about needing the horror or using Faulk as an every down back in case of TWO injuries at running back. One of Taylor, Morris or Maroney would be the running back with TWO injuries. Perhaps that is the reason that we don't need BJGE. He would only be needed for major reps if there are THREE injuries at running back. And just BYW, I would be fine with a game or two with Faulk as the primary back. He has done well in that role in the past.

IMHO, BJGE's getting a roster spot depends on Belichick's patience with the continuing injuries to Morris.


With BB using 2 RB's in a game per various situations, (goal line, 3rd down, etc) I think all it'd take for BJGE to see some playing time again in the regular season is 2 dinged up backs.

In other words, no one would want to see Faulk as the last resort of an every down back, couple that with Maroney possibly continuing to be somewhat ineffective (variable yet to be determined), and an injury or 2 to either one of Taylor/Morris.

I agree w/ everyone about the serious need for a running game, not only to take some pressure off of Brady, but for 'down the stretch' Nov/Dec weather too. (not to mention predictability issues) I think the chances of at least 2 dinged up RB's is high, and this is why I think there's a need for 5 RB's.

Where to free up the spot is the big debate, IMO. I was sold on only 2 QB's last week, but that has changed. I don't like the thought of having only 1 OT as a backup for the first 6 wks, and I like McGowan a lot, and Ventrone over Slater. But these are good problems to have, and I can't wait to see how it all pans out in 2-3 wks. It'll be key to watch the Morris, Crable and Lenon injuries to see everything fall into place.
 
I posted before Reiss so that I could then revise after the discussions. I have made one change and now agree with 52 of 53 of Reiss' roster instead of the original 51 (last week and this week). I now project Crable to the IR and Slater to the roster. I still hope that Morris is healthy enough not to need to use up a roster spot on BJGE.

THE LAST THREE
Reiss - BJGE, Alexander, Slater
mgteich - O'Callaghan, Alexander (or Lenon if he gets on the field), Slater
mayo - O'Callagahan, Ninkovitch (or Lenon if he gets on the field), Crable

ISSUES
1) Reiss thinks O'Callaghan deserve a roster spot and want the team to take the risk of Vollmer being the only backup tackle for 6 weeks.
2) Reiss is one of the view pushing BJGE as a 5th RB if Morris stays injured. We'll see.
3) Reiss thinks that Crable won't be on the 53; he could be right, he could be on the IR
4) Alexander is playing well on special teams and OK as the #8 LB at the moment.
5) Lenon can't make the club from the tub.
6) Reiss has Slater slipping into the 53 as a gunner instead of the additional linebacker.

MY BOTTOM LINE
A) We need a 4th OT instead of a 5th RB
B) We need a backup linebacker (Alexander is the choice with Ninkovitch on the PS)
C) We need a top gunner. Slater is the man. Slater is also a backup returner.
 
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I posted before Reiss so that I could then revise after the discussions. I have made one change and now agree with 52 of 53 of Reiss' roster instead of the original 51 (last week and this week). I now project Crable to the IR and Slater to the roster. I still hope that Morris is healthy enough not to need to use up a roster spot on BJGE.

THE LAST THREE
Reiss - BJGE, Alexander, Slater
mgteich - O'Callaghan, Alexander (or Lenon if he gets on the field), Slater
mayo - O'Callagahan, Ninkovitch (or Lenon if he gets on the field), Crable

ISSUES
1) Reiss thinks O'Callaghan deserve a roster spot and want the team to take the risk of Vollmer being the only backup tackle for 6 weeks.
2) Reiss is one of the view pushing BJGE as a 5th RB if Morris stays injured. We'll see.
3) Reiss thinks that Crable won't be on the 53; he could be right, he could be on the IR
4) Alexander is playing well on special teams and OK as the #8 LB at the moment.
5) Lenon can't make the club from the tub.
6) Reiss has Slater slipping into the 53 as a gunner instead of the additional linebacker.

MY BOTTOM LINE
A) We need a 4th OT instead of a 5th RB
B) We need a backup linebacker (Alexander is the choice with Ninkovitch on the PS)
C) We need a top gunner. Slater is the man. Slater is also a backup returner.

I disagree. You had it right the first time - one OL and 2 LBs (including Crable, who I really don't see going on IR unless he truly has a season-ending injury - that would probably be the kiss of death for his career, and the FO thought too much of him to give up on him this quickly). I still think Lenon makes the 53 man squad. I'd personally take Ninkovitch over Alexander, who barely qualifies as a JAG IMHO.

Please tell me what the evidence is that Slater is a "top gunner" far above and beyond what others can bring to the position. Just because he has some experience there, I'm far from convinced that he brings more than McGowan or Chung would bring opposite Aiken. There's plenty of guys who could capably fill that role, as well as backup kick returner.
 
Your argument is for a fullback, not a fifth running back.

We do NOT need a running back in goal line situations. We need a fullback. Belichick has apparently chosen to use Hochstein in that role instead of signing a fullback who would also be a blocker on the special teams units, as we have had for a couple of years in Evans. The backup gameday OT could also be candidate to be a goalline fullback.

You talk about needing the horror or using Faulk as an every down back in case of TWO injuries at running back. One of Taylor, Morris or Maroney would be the running back with TWO injuries. Perhaps that is the reason that we don't need BJGE. He would only be needed for major reps if there are THREE injuries at running back. And just BYW, I would be fine with a game or two with Faulk as the primary back. He has done well in that role in the past.

IMHO, BJGE's getting a roster spot depends on Belichick's patience with the continuing injuries to Morris.

While you are correct in many ways, there are a few things that you either mis-read, or I simply did not explain well enough.

I certainly realize the difference of a FB and a 5th RB on the roster, but I believe the gap lessens a bit this year with the departure of Evans, and the decision not to replace him with the prototype FB. Regardless, it's still going to take up 5 spots anyway, whether or not it's 4 RB/1FB or 5 RB.

I realize the versatility of a good backup (IMO) like Hochstien, not only on the line, but also as a lead blocker/FB a la Seymour and Vrabel in the past. This could certainly get the team through, or do in a pinch--but it's not the same as a regular FB obviously. My examples of BB using a 2 RB set, or the need of using 3rd down backs, goal line situation, etc was simply to state the importance of depth--especially in a RB by committee approach. With our somewhat aging backs, and the uncertainty (as I said, to be determined) so far of Maroney, coupled with the fact the Faulk is a great 3rd down back and shouldn't be used as an every down back, the need for depth is absolute.

When you said Faulk has worked in a pinch for a game or 2, I certainly agree, but you are figuring that it'd be short term, like in the past. Should the need arise for a longer term solution, there is no doubt that we'd be searching for another waiver wire pickup. So I'm not scared of the "horrors of using Faulk" as you state, but since he is such a vital cog in the offensive machine, I don't see BB risking him to injury for too long of a period as an every down back.

Basically my take (right or wrong) was this:

Faulk--#3rd down back
Maroney--??? whether it be bad blocking, bad luck, mental issues, the famous 'poor vision,' etc--the jury is still out somewhat. FWIW, I'm not bashing him, and I think he's a good RB, etc, but there's always a chance that he won't be a productive back in this system.
Taylor/Morris--both older, somewhat of an injury worry

So, that's why I figured 2 dinged up backs lead to BJGE, and not the 3 that you feel. You very well may be correct, I am just stating my reasoning. Like I said regardless, whether it's a FB or not, it still leads to 5 roster spots. This is a crucial year to develop a good running game, and we need better chipping, blitz pickups etc to help Brady return from a serious injury.

I have not seen much from Slater, who is a low rd pick anyway, so if this is the spot, then so be it. The ST this year will already take on a different look due to additions of other players, rule change, etc. I think there are other players who can replace him as a gunner, and a handful on backup kickoff returns.
 
Someone mentioned they would be worried if faulk had to play an extended amount of time. I sure wouldn't. He quietly averaged 6.1 yards a carry last year. In a third and one play i feel the most confident in him running for the first more than any other back on this team.

I don't know what the infatuation is with BJGE. Yeah he runs hard but he only averaged 3.7 yards a carry and i seen him fail to convert many short runs when the defense knew we were going to run the ball. Thats why i kinda miss lamont jordan. Back to BJGE, if he is cut i doubt any team will pick him up. There are hundreds of undrafted rb's that could probably do what BJGE has done if given the opportunity. Besides, if we catch the injury bug with our rb's there are options out there like tatum bell, egergin james, other team cuts, and so on. So losing him would be no big deal.

Also, based on the Bengal game, I think Terrence Nunn is going on the ps. He made some great catches and showed great concentration but he didn't appear to get much seperation on any of his catches. I bet talented corners would just stick to him like glue.
 
Someone mentioned they would be worried if faulk had to play an extended amount of time. I sure wouldn't. He quietly averaged 6.1 yards a carry last year. In a third and one play i feel the most confident in him running for the first more than any other back on this team.

I don't know what the infatuation is with BJGE. Yeah he runs hard but he only averaged 3.7 yards a carry and i seen him fail to convert many short runs when the defense knew we were going to run the ball. Thats why i kinda miss lamont jordan. Back to BJGE, if he is cut i doubt any team will pick him up. There are hundreds of undrafted rb's that could probably do what BJGE has done if given the opportunity. Besides, if we catch the injury bug with our rb's there are options out there like tatum bell, egergin james, other team cuts, and so on. So losing him would be no big deal.

Also, based on the Bengal game, I think Terrence Nunn is going on the ps. He made some great catches and showed great concentration but he didn't appear to get much seperation on any of his catches. I bet talented corners would just stick to him like glue.

I didn't say I'd be worried seeing Faulk have extended playing, quite the contrary. What I said is that I doubt BB would risk Faulk to injury having him take all of the carries...for an extended period of time, and I stand by that.

I love Faulk, as do most. He is a vital piece of our offense, I feel that there would be other measures taken before it got that far, searching for another back, etc.

And while Faulk always does seem to get the job done I agree, but most of his carries come on draws from 3rd and long--where the defense has to set up in a 5 or 6 DB situation. While he is probably the best in that situation, it is far from being used as an every down back for an extended period of time.
 
When you said Faulk has worked in a pinch for a game or 2, I certainly agree, but you are figuring that it'd be short term, like in the past. Should the need arise for a longer term solution, there is no doubt that we'd be searching for another waiver wire pickup. So I'm not scared of the "horrors of using Faulk" as you state, but since he is such a vital cog in the offensive machine, I don't see BB risking him to injury for too long of a period as an every down back.

Basically my take (right or wrong) was this:

Faulk--#3rd down back
Maroney--??? whether it be bad blocking, bad luck, mental issues, the famous 'poor vision,' etc--the jury is still out somewhat. FWIW, I'm not bashing him, and I think he's a good RB, etc, but there's always a chance that he won't be a productive back in this system.
Taylor/Morris--both older, somewhat of an injury worry

So BJGE is basically a hedge against injuries occurring in the same game to two of Morris, Maroney, Taylor and this insurance against a low risk is worth a Week 1 roster spot?

I'm not quite getting that argument. I understand your injury concerns but I figure if there is an IR-able or a 4 or more games out injury to a 1st or 2nd down back, the Patriots will be able to get a FA into practice easy enough. I also figure that there are enough replacement level or slightly worse backs on the street or on a wide array of practice squads that can be signed. BJGE may or may not be the #1 choice for the Pats as their 5th RB in Week 5 of the season, but the odds lean towards him getting the call if the Pats need a replacement for several weeks. And as it is, he does not do a whole lot on special teams, so his value add is really evident only if there is a string of injuries. Assuming Morris and Taylor get out of the tub, and no serious injuries occur in Week 3 and 4 of the pre-season, I have a hard time seeing how the Pats justify keeping 5 RBs on this roster.
 
HOW MANY OF US HAVE THE ROSTER MUCH DIFFERENT FOR THE FIRST 48?
And yes, I am surprised that there are fewer locks this week than last.

OFFENSE (23)
QB Brady, Walter, O'Connell
RB Maroney, Taylor, Faulk, Morris
WR Moss, Welker, Galloway, Edelman, Aiken, Lewis
TE Baker, Watson, Thomas
OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Orhnberger, Vollmer

DEFENSE (22)
DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Brace, Wright, Pryor
DE/OLB Burgress, Banta-Cain
OLB Thomas, Woods
ILB Mayo, Guyton
CB Bodden, Wilhite, Springs, Butler, Wheatley
S Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

SPECIALISTS (3)
K Gostkowski
P Hanson
LS Ingram

THE LAST FIVE
My choices are Wendell, O'Callaghan, Lenon, Bruschi and Slater.
That leaves out Crable, Alexander, BJGE, Smith, Connolly, Ventrone, Nunn, Williams, and Ninkovitch

PUP
WR Tate
OT LeVoir

IR
LB McKenzie
 
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Seems a little light on the OL, but generally I think you're right.

Last five need to include another ILB and another OL for sure.

HOW MANY OF US HAVE THE ROSTER MUCH DIFFERENT FOR THE FIRST 48?
And yes, I am surprised that there are fewer locks this week than last.

OFFENSE (23)
QB Brady, Walter, O'Connell
RB Maroney, Taylor, Faulk, Morris
WR Moss, Welker, Galloway, Edelman, Aiken, Lewis
TE Baker, Watson, Thomas
OL Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Kaczur, Orhnberger, Vollmer

DEFENSE (22)
DL Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, Green, Brace, Wright, Pryor
DE/OLB Burgress, Banta-Cain
OLB Thomas, Woods
ILB Mayo, Guyton
CB Bodden, Wilhite, Springs, Butler, Wheatley
S Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

SPECIALISTS (3)
K Gostkowski
P Hanson
LS Ingram

THE LAST FIVE
My choices are Wendell, O'Callaghan, Lenon, Bruschi and Slater.
That leaves out Crable, BJGE, Smith, Connolly, Ventrone, Nunn, Williams and Ninkovitch


PUP
WR Tate
OT LeVoir

IR
LB McKenzie
 
I agree. As I indicated, I think that the last five should include 2 OL's, 2 LB's and a special teamer.

Seems a little light on the OL, but generally I think you're right.

Last five need to include another ILB and another OL for sure.
 
I don't think that Wendell, O'Callaghan, or Bruschi make the team.

I think that the Pats will pick up a veteran center... I think the Pats will go with 3 OTs until LaVoir is cleared..

And that puts Crable and Ninkovich on the team.. If the Pats keep O'Callaghan, then Ninkovich loses his spot..
 
I am absolutely fine with us picking up a veteran center.

I don't think that Wendell, O'Callaghan, or Bruschi make the team.

I think that the Pats will pick up a veteran center... I think the Pats will go with 3 OTs until LaVoir is cleared..

And that puts Crable and Ninkovich on the team.. If the Pats keep O'Callaghan, then Ninkovich loses his spot..
 
Of the 48 you have listed I feel one of Lewis/Galloway are cut.

And I know I will get burnt for this one - if Morris / Taylor can't stay out of the tub one of them won't make the club.

If Crable can't go, Ninkovitch gets a spot.

That leaves Bruschi, Slater, Wendell or Connolly, BJGE, Ninkovitch, & O'Callaghan (until LeVoir can play)

The last spot is an ILB that gets cut from another team (mayo-guyton-bruschi isn't enough)
 
Latest round:

Offense: 25
QBs (2): Brady, O'Connell -- Cuts: Walter, Hoyer (PS) -- Analysis: Hoyer can be stashed; do not believe Walter warrants a spot
RBs (5): Taylor, Maroney, Morris, Faulk, BJGE -- Cuts: Taylor the Lesser -- Analysis: Current injury situation (Faulk, Morris) dictates
WRs (6): Moss, Welker, Galloway, Lewis, Edelman, Aiken -- Cuts: Nunn (PS), Ventrone (shadow, not PS eligible), Ortiz
TEs (3): Baker, Thomas, Watson -- Cuts: Smith
OL (8): Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Light, Kaczur, Vollmer, Yates, Wendell -- Cuts: Ohrnberger (PS), Bussey (PS), O'Callaghan, Britt, Connolly -- Analysis: Trade potential still there; Ohrnberger might be a tough PS sneak; LeVoir becomes 4th OT from PUP

Defense: 24
DLs (9): Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Burgess, Green, Wright, Brace, Banta-Cain, Pryor -- Cuts: Richard (PS), Adams, Williams, Ninkovich
LBs (6): Mayo, Thomas, Guyton, Woods, Alexander, Ciurciu -- Cuts: Bruschi (graudation/shadow), Crable (IR/Foxboro flu) -- Analysis: Doing what's best for this football team
CBs (5): Bodden, Springs, Wilhite, Butler, Wheatley -- Cuts: Love (PS), Rogers -- Anaylsis: Still the easiest prediction
Ss (5): Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan, Slater -- Cuts: Jones

Special Teams: 3
K: Gostkowski, P: Hanson, LS: Ingram -- Cuts: Hodel


...Of course, that's only 52. I'm not going to assume again this year that all 53 players will come from the Patriots roster as constituted, so I'm building in a 53rd spot for a waiver-wire pickup. I actually started at 51 and added Slater just for kicks. QB spot remains something to watch, though. It's always important to look at the injury situation, as that seems to have an effect on the opening roster (think last year with 7 WRs including the sleeper C.J. Jones). Here were the guys who missed last night's game: Morris, Faulk - RBs, Edelman, Ventrone, Welker - WRs, Brace, Richard, Pryor - DLs, Crable - LB, Springs - CB. Out of those guys, I think Morris and Faulk's injuries and BJGE's play warrant a 5th spot there; Welker and Edelman's injuries don't appear to be serious but could potentially mean a 7th guy there; the DL injuries don't appear to be serious and there's already plenty of depth; Crable seems destined for IR; Springs should be alright.
 
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