i just dont get it..

[JDP111]

i guess i just dont get all this talk about drafting a RB or signing a FA RB. what was the point of taking maroney in the first round if you just want to pair him up with someone else. the guy played well for his FIRST YEAR. why do soo many people think we need 2 backs? we were ok with a. smith, we were great with dillon (till he turned 30) why does everyone think we need a two back system? we need a bell cow that gets 20-25 touches a game. switching backs can dictate what a team is going to do, for instance, i doubt many teams worried about dillon catching out of the backfield or stacking the line with kevin faulk. maroney is the man for us. lets chill out and give the guy the guy a chance. i understand getting a backup for him but lets not even consider paying an ahman green, deshaun foster or for gods sake .....MARSHALL FAULK! (may have been the dumbest post ive read since the BB bashing.) sorry guys just venting.

HMMMMMMM. INJURIES?????

 

[JDP111]

I don't think it's that you want to pair him with another back, it's the fact you almost have to based on his performance and the way he runs. If not, you're looking at a lot of 3rd and longs. The Pats offense is not built for 3rd and long.

Maroneys #'s beg to differ.

 

[frankiesfly]

Good afternoon cousins,
I don't want to take carries from LM just, a breather with a veteran who can be bought reasonably and inexpensive with experience. As well as an emergency start. Posted this earlier.

For breakfast, a couple of nice left over Sunday doughnuts (so what) and some DD flavored coffee, starting with an O.J. on this winter day.

My comments might not be worth anything to the astute but we'll fire a few off here.

We need depth.
We have already a pretty good defense and I will address that first. They set a team record for fewest points and played the Colts and the Bengals and others that put up the big numbers. The Colts game bore witness to just running out of bodies and steam. A little more pass rush without blitzes would help.

Just some quick thoughts and I'm sure comments will follow:
How about K.C.'s Jared Allen. Wants out as bad as Branch did here last year. 25 years old. great pass rusher, but.....has the quicks to drop at 6' 6'' and 270 (same size as Thomas of Ravens). Willie M. style? Proven commodity, young, not a two or three year draft choice wait time frame. How can teams double Seymour, with Allen rushing too? More upside than Freeney.

Would you, or the Godfather trade a number one and perhaps (optimistically to fill the DE position in K.C.) Marquis Hill (after all he was a #2 pick and he just won't get playing time here. He might be better than what we think because BB and SP keep him on the roster) for Allen? If we could keep him on the wagon and get him signed to a reasonable contract, I would pull the trigger. Remember only 25 years old! It would get us yet another PR and maybe a drop back LB upon occasion. Isn't that how Thomas worked for the Ravens? Wouldn't he cost less?

Next I would resign Seau for another season. He played with vigor and heart last year (he also wasn't as slow as we were led to believe) and if we could draft a Willis. What teachers and examples Seau, Teddy, Colvin and Vrabel could be but.....now pick up Donnie Edwards at a reasonable FA number to add to the MLB rotation for a year or two and especially on pass downs. Wouldn't you rather have seen him covering down the field with one minute to go in Indy? Seau first and second down and Edwards on third or obvious passing situations.

Now....Let's see! We have taken care of the LB issue. Have gotten a little younger there (with Allen and Willis lets say). Have gotten better pass rushing and have got some future talent.

Lets go for Bly, the CB who wants out of Detroit. In 2006 he was the best CB leading the team with 18 passes defensed and tying for the team lead in interceptions in 2006 with three after leading the Lions with six interceptions in 2005. He's a 29 year old Vet who will not cost the Pats a ton like Nate Clemmons. Bly has the most forced fumbles (17) among all cornerbacks since 1999 (second among all defensive backs). He also ranks sixth among defensive backs (fifth among cornerbacks) with 113 passes defenses since he was a rookie in '99. Now we can draft a CB high to develop, not throw into the fire because Hobbs or Wilson can do nickle (or Gay) and we have some depth.

On offense at RB, we got healthier with Evans signed, but another Vet would help like maybe even Stephen Smith. A thumper who is still able to do 8-10 carries, do short yardage, catch the ball on screens etc. (much better hands than Dillion) and start a game or two if required. He is at the end but has that saavy. Now draft a running back to bring along in the mid rounds.

At WR, still think that Kevin Curtis is the Branch type WR that the Pats feature with better routes and bigger than Branch was but just as fast and will do ST returns.

Now get one of these two WR's. The cerebral Gonzales out of Ohio state who is fast, runs great patterns, has superb hands, is still 6' tall and can get open or his teamate Ginn Jr. who might not have the hands or size but is a burner that can return punts (ala Hester) and can even be used as a DB (BB like multi-talent player). Ginn will be first round or high in the second. Gonzales is late second or early third round

Perfect world stuff, but food for thought!
DW Toys

Thanks for the book, but i was looking to read some posts.

 

[koolaid23]

Please tell me your kidding? You dont get it? Bush/Mcallister, Rhodes/Addai, Benson/Jones, Barber/Jones, Dillon/Maroney... Do you get it yet? This is not slowly becoming a 2 back league..it already is.

not quite sure what you mean by this. you left out a few teams like jacksonville, houston, jets, denver and giants that also did share the carries. that is still 31% of the league. how can you say that the league is now a 2 back system. first of all you just named 5 teams out of 32 in the nfl, i added 5 more for you. hardly the league. secondly rhodes is gone, jones will be gone, and dillon will be gone. i think its nice that youve managed to leave out the fact that the majority of the nfl is a one back system. here we go....LJ, LT, chester taylor, willie parker, rudi johnson, frank gore, stephen jackson, lamont jordan, mcgahee, droughns, travis henry, james, alexander, portis, cadilac williams, ronnie brown, kevin jones, ahman green...do i have to go on?? i think the question is, please tell me your kidding? i dont think you get it at all. dont tell me that it already is. you dont know what your talking about.

 

[DW Toys]

Sorry to offend. Thank you for your comments sir. I will be aware of that in the future.
DW Toys

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Sorry to offend. Thank you for your comments sir. I will be aware of that in the future.
DW Toys

dont listen to frankie. i liked your post, and you had some good ideas. though, you kinda lost me on bly. i wasnt under the impression that he was THAT good, but i honestly dont know much about him.

 

[dhamz]

In 2005, the Pats had 1 RB, he got banged up and it killed the offenses ability to be diverse and do the things that we want to do. We ended up with Brady throwing too much and leading the NFL in amount of times knocked down.

The same thing would have happenned in 2006 at the end of the year if we only had Maroney. Becasue we had 2 backs, we were able to continue to mix in the ground attack down the stretch when Maroney went down.

Is there any doubt which situation is preferred? Maroney is going to be the #1 back here but we need to get a guy who can carry the ball enough times weekly to keep Maroney fresh and also be able to step into the #1 role for a few weeks if he is injured.

 

[koolaid23]

In 2005, the Pats had 1 RB, he got banged up and it killed the offenses ability to be diverse and do the things that we want to do. We ended up with Brady throwing too much and leading the NFL in amount of times knocked down.

The same thing would have happenned in 2006 at the end of the year if we only had Maroney. Becasue we had 2 backs, we were able to continue to mix in the ground attack down the stretch when Maroney went down.

Is there any doubt which situation is preferred? Maroney is going to be the #1 back here but we need to get a guy who can carry the ball enough times weekly to keep Maroney fresh and also be able to step into the #1 role for a few weeks if he is injured.

i completely agree with you. my point is that we just dont need a costly FA veteran back to SHARE the load. or a first day draft pick. just a guy that could step in if need be. i mean you quoted 2005, but you didnt quote 2004 when dillon set a franchise record for rushing yards in a season all by himself. not arguing just mentioning.

 

[captain stone]

i completely agree with you. my point is that we just dont need a costly FA veteran back to SHARE the load. or a first day draft pick. just a guy that could step in if need be. i mean you quoted 2005, but you didnt quote 2004 when dillon set a franchise record for rushing yards in a season all by himself. not arguing just mentioning.

Your last post is your most correct, in that:

As has been stated previously, injuries and the need to keep everyone fresh dictates that 2 competent RBs are required.

A costly vet FA RB is not needed.

A first-day draft pick RB is not needed.

However, as of 2-28, the only RBs on the roster are Maroney and Faulk (assuming Dillon is released, resulting in - again, I assume - some decent cap savings). Evans and Mills are the FBs. We definitely need a power back. There are some pretty good ones available now, probably more added tomorrow. This should keep costs down. Good for us. I would also like to see a 3rd-down RB added to spell/groom behind Faulk. That would bring the # of RBs on the roster to 6. Add 3-4 2nd-day picks, UDFAs and vet minimum guys, and RB looks stable, no?

 

[DaBruinz]

i guess i just dont get all this talk about drafting a RB or signing a FA RB. what was the point of taking maroney in the first round if you just want to pair him up with someone else. the guy played well for his FIRST YEAR. why do soo many people think we need 2 backs? we were ok with a. smith, we were great with dillon (till he turned 30) why does everyone think we need a two back system? we need a bell cow that gets 20-25 touches a game. switching backs can dictate what a team is going to do, for instance, i doubt many teams worried about dillon catching out of the backfield or stacking the line with kevin faulk. maroney is the man for us. lets chill out and give the guy the guy a chance. i understand getting a backup for him but lets not even consider paying an ahman green, deshaun foster or for gods sake .....MARSHALL FAULK! (may have been the dumbest post ive read since the BB bashing.) sorry guys just venting.

Did you watch the play-offs last year? How about the Colts game this year?

People are saying we need to add depth to the RB position because of injuries. And because, when you have 2 quality backs, you can make it less likely that they wear down and get injured. You also make it much less likely that you have a drop off should one or more get injured.

Over the last 2 years, Dillon, Pass and Faulk all had moajor injuries. That lack of depth hurt the Pats offense MAJORLY.

Now, I agree that Ahman Green, DeShaun Foster or Marshall Faulk are probably NOT the answer. However, Marcel Shipp could be.

The Pats need someone to groom to replace Faulk. They could also use a bruiser for short-yardage situations as an option to Maroney. People have mentioned Brian Leonard because of his versatility. You could line him up in the backfield and other teams wouldn't know whether you were going to him or Maroney on the run or setting up a pass or even a draw play.

 

[DaBruinz]

This myth regarding the move toward a 'two back' system is exactly that - a myth.

It is unsustainable for a number of obvious reasons - the first being running backs do not like sharing carries, and and as a result yardage and TD's...and therefore.....money (from future contracts).

Look at the examples across the league that are often quoted - Parker/Bettis, Rhodes/Addai, McAllister/Bush, Maroney/Dillon, Benson/Jones and you will notice that two of those situations are about to dissolve, one lasted a single year, and the other two can't have too much longer to run.

In every single case the rookie is the guy who is the 'jonny come lately' - he is the guy being integrated into the system and it is the established vet who is being forced out the door.

There is one expception that springs to mind - Tomlinson/Turner - and even then one of the guys is likely out the door after a couple of under utilized, yet effective ,years.

In most other systems (excluding Shaun Alexander, LJ or LT) Turner would be the de-facto franchise back.

Bettis career was naturally curtailed by retirement therefore there was no controversy.

Not many teams are likely to draft day one or make an FA move for a 'second back' while their current guy hasn't yet peaked.

Maroney needs to see plenty of the ball this year - he can be spelled on 3rd down by Faulk if required and by Evans if really needed.

Maroney isn't Kevin Faulk - he is our No.1 guy - there is simply no need to take carries, TD's or 3rd and short duties away from him and to a guy with less talent.

NM

Its not a myth. Look at the Barber/Jones combination in Dallas. Or the Barber/Jones combination in NY. Or the Tomlinson/Turner combination in San Diego to a lesser extent.

You have 2 backs so that if the primary is injured, the 2nd back can step in without an issue. But the 2nd back needs to be used elsewhere. And that 2nd back isn't necessarily a 3rd down back like Faulk.

Its a fallacy to think teams aren't moving to using 2 backs more. They are. To help keep the injuries to the backs down. And to cover for injuries when they do occur.

If you think that the Patriots are just fine and dandy with Maroney, Faulk and Evans in the back-field, then you didn't watch the 2005 season nor did you watch the Colts game this past year.

 

[koolaid23]

Your last post is your most correct, in that:

As has been stated previously, injuries and the need to keep everyone fresh dictates that 2 competent RBs are required.

A costly vet FA RB is not needed.

A first-day draft pick RB is not needed.

However, as of 2-28, the only RBs on the roster are Maroney and Faulk (assuming Dillon is released, resulting in - again, I assume - some decent cap savings). Evans and Mills are the FBs. We definitely need a power back. There are some pretty good ones available now, probably more added tomorrow. This should keep costs down. Good for us. I would also like to see a 3rd-down RB added to spell/groom behind Faulk. That would bring the # of RBs on the roster to 6. Add 3-4 2nd-day picks, UDFAs and vet minimum guys, and RB looks stable, no?

it would. and i agree with you. but i dont think we can carry 6 RB/FBs, or anyone can for that matter. too many needs for roster space elsewhere. think we wind up with RBs 1. Maroney 2. cheap FA (labrandon toefield, marcel shipp, for example) 3. Faulk
and 2 FB. 1. evans 2. mills. i think 4 RBs is overkill especially for the roster space needed for other more important positions for backup players and special teamers.

 

[koolaid23]

Its not a myth. Look at the Barber/Jones combination in Dallas. Or the Barber/Jones combination in NY. Or the Tomlinson/Turner combination in San Diego to a lesser extent.

You have 2 backs so that if the primary is injured, the 2nd back can step in without an issue. But the 2nd back needs to be used elsewhere. And that 2nd back isn't necessarily a 3rd down back like Faulk.

Its a fallacy to think teams aren't moving to using 2 backs more. They are. To help keep the injuries to the backs down. And to cover for injuries when they do occur.

If you think that the Patriots are just fine and dandy with Maroney, Faulk and Evans in the back-field, then you didn't watch the 2005 season nor did you watch the Colts game this past year.

not saying its a myth, just saying that it is def not the majority or even needed to be a successful rushing team. i mean lets be honest here, as far as i know dillon and maroney were both healthy in the colt game and they didnt exactly light it up. my point was only that people are flipping out talking about big name RBs or early draft picks on a RB when we have a guy that we drafted to be THE GUY, not one of the guys, or half of the guys. lets give maroney an offseason to bulk up, train, get all the first team reps in practice, get the timing right with brady and the o-line and be the first round pick we all want him to be.

 

[DaBruinz]

not quite sure what you mean by this. you left out a few teams like jacksonville, houston, jets, denver and giants that also did share the carries. that is still 31% of the league. how can you say that the league is now a 2 back system. first of all you just named 5 teams out of 32 in the nfl, i added 5 more for you. hardly the league. secondly rhodes is gone, jones will be gone, and dillon will be gone. i think its nice that youve managed to leave out the fact that the majority of the nfl is a one back system. here we go....LJ, LT, chester taylor, willie parker, rudi johnson, frank gore, stephen jackson, lamont jordan, mcgahee, droughns, travis henry, james, alexander, portis, cadilac williams, ronnie brown, kevin jones, ahman green...do i have to go on?? i think the question is, please tell me your kidding? i dont think you get it at all. dont tell me that it already is. you dont know what your talking about.

Travis Henry had Lendale White and Chris Brown.
Portis and Ladell Betts.
Ronnie Brown and Sammie Morris
McGahee & Anthony Thomas
Thomas Jones and Cedric Benson
Marion Barber / Julius Jones
Foster / Williams
Lamont Jordan / Justin Fargas
Westbrook / Buckhalter
Dunn / Vick

Now, lets look at the other players you mentioned and I'll add Jamal Lewis.
Cadillac Williams - 225 carries - 798 yards
Kevin Jones - 181 carries - 689 yards
Ahman Green - 266 carries - 1059 yards
Edgerrin James - 337 carries - 1159 yards
Jamal Lewis - 314 carries - 1132 yards
Rueben Droughns - 220 carries - 758 yards.

Gore, Alexander, Tomlinson, and Larry Johnson seem to be the exceptions, not the rule nowadays. But, lets also remember that Tomlinson has a great back-up in Turner.

Also, he said the league seems to be on its way to being a 2 back league. And, when you look at it, it DOES seem to be increasing in that way. There are a LOT more teams using 2 backs now than there was even 5 years ago.

 

[DaBruinz]

i completely agree with you. my point is that we just dont need a costly FA veteran back to SHARE the load. or a first day draft pick. just a guy that could step in if need be. i mean you quoted 2005, but you didnt quote 2004 when dillon set a franchise record for rushing yards in a season all by himself. not arguing just mentioning.

You're making a HUGE assumption that those guys are going to be COSTLY.

Also, a 3rd round draft pick isn't necessarily COSTLY.

Oh, yes, in 2004 Dillon set a franchise record for rushing. It happens occasionally. But what about 2005 and 2006 when the Pats had tons of injuries to the RBs?

 

[DaBruinz]

not saying its a myth, just saying that it is def not the majority or even needed to be a successful rushing team. i mean lets be honest here, as far as i know dillon and maroney were both healthy in the colt game and they didnt exactly light it up. my point was only that people are flipping out talking about big name RBs or early draft picks on a RB when we have a guy that we drafted to be THE GUY, not one of the guys, or half of the guys. lets give maroney an offseason to bulk up, train, get all the first team reps in practice, get the timing right with brady and the o-line and be the first round pick we all want him to be.

It may not be a majority, yet, but its definitely increasing. I think you will also find that the more successful teams are using 2 backs rather than 1. Even San Diego uses 2 backs. Turner is used to spell Tomlinson and keep his legs fresh.

No one is saying to NOT make Maroney the #1 RB. And I think that is where your misinterpretation of what people are saying is coming from. We want Maroney to be the #1 back. But history has shown us that we need a more than capable back-up to him. Not just a scat back for 3rd downs. Someone who can bring similar skills that Maroney can bring in the event that Maroney goes down. Otherwise, the Pats will be in a very bad situation.

 

[koolaid23]

It may not be a majority, yet, but its definitely increasing. I think you will also find that the more successful teams are using 2 backs rather than 1. Even San Diego uses 2 backs. Turner is used to spell Tomlinson and keep his legs fresh.

No one is saying to NOT make Maroney the #1 RB. And I think that is where your misinterpretation of what people are saying is coming from. We want Maroney to be the #1 back. But history has shown us that we need a more than capable back-up to him. Not just a scat back for 3rd downs. Someone who can bring similar skills that Maroney can bring in the event that Maroney goes down. Otherwise, the Pats will be in a very bad situation.

ok, ok. then we agree. i want a capable back up as well, everyteam needs one. i just dont think we need another situation like dillon/maroney next year. i see your point. if maroney gets 300+ carries next year and a backup (whoever it may be) gets 150+ im a happy guy.

on a side note, an not trying to be a d**k. but come on. what is this all about?
Travis Henry had Lendale White and Chris Brown.
Portis and Ladell Betts.
Ronnie Brown and Sammie Morris
McGahee & Anthony Thomas
Foster / Williams
Lamont Jordan / Justin Fargas
Westbrook / Buckhalter
Dunn / Vick

these arnt exactly 2 RB teams. sammie morris?? fargas?? buckhalter?? VICK?? i see your view but these are sort of stretches for your point. but i love the debate...in late february.

 

[DaBruinz]

ok, ok. then we agree. i want a capable back up as well, everyteam needs one. i just dont think we need another situation like dillon/maroney next year. i see your point. if maroney gets 300+ carries next year and a backup (whoever it may be) gets 150+ im a happy guy.

on a side note, an not trying to be a d**k. but come on. what is this all about?
Travis Henry had Lendale White and Chris Brown.
Portis and Ladell Betts.
Ronnie Brown and Sammie Morris
McGahee & Anthony Thomas
Foster / Williams
Lamont Jordan / Justin Fargas
Westbrook / Buckhalter
Dunn / Vick

these arnt exactly 2 RB teams. sammie morris?? fargas?? buckhalter?? VICK?? i see your view but these are sort of stretches for your point. but i love the debate...in late february.

I take it you haven't watched many games outside of the Pats, have you?

VICK is a REGULAR part of the Falcons running game. The guy had 123 carries. They weren't all QB sneaks.

The Raiders were using Fargas to spell Jordan regularly.

My cousins are Eagles fans. Buckhalter regularly spelled Westbrook or lined up at RB with Westbrook out wide.

Sammie Morris regularly spelled Brown.

Betts regularly spelled Portis.

And no, it does't stretch anything. They are more examples of teams using 2 backs. Someone to take 1/3 or more of the reps to help keep the #1 guy healthy.

 

[koolaid23]

I take it you haven't watched many games outside of the Pats, have you?

VICK is a REGULAR part of the Falcons running game. The guy had 123 carries. They weren't all QB sneaks.

The Raiders were using Fargas to spell Jordan regularly.

My cousins are Eagles fans. Buckhalter regularly spelled Westbrook or lined up at RB with Westbrook out wide.

Sammie Morris regularly spelled Brown.

Betts regularly spelled Portis.

And no, it does't stretch anything. They are more examples of teams using 2 backs. Someone to take 1/3 or more of the reps to help keep the #1 guy healthy.

well that happens everywhere...but thats not what were talking about. were talking about a split of carries like jones/benson, barber/jones, taylor/jones-drew. and i understand that vick is a scrambling QB, but hes still a qb. i mean teams usually run the ball between 40-50 times a game. obviously no RB can run the ball 800 times in a season.