I can not see how Gutierrez is not by far the #2 QB now

[fgssand]

Well BB for some reason likes the guy,Maybe he has something that is a help in the locker room or whatever,I could be 85 years old before I figure that out,Usually I can get a jist of why a guy is still on the team but this QB has me totally baffled

For those who back Cassel, lets have a post within a post shall we?

QUESTION...

In the years Cassel has been on the team, name 10 things (even if they are the tiniest things) he has done on the field in the little time he has been there both regular in garbage time and the preseason to justify him being the #2 right now?

...Come on, you can name 10 things can't you?...Ok. how about 9 -8 ,maybe 7 - even 6? come on now,you can do better than that![/b]

Luckily, he has not been called upon to any thing during his years as the back up. I maintain he is nowhere near as bad as he has looked, I have seen every post season game this year (2 in person) I have seen positives and negatives. Cassell cannot be blamed for all out rushes and blitzes when we have patchwork "O" lines or lines being evaluated. He cannot be blamed when other teams are going all out and we do not even install a game plan. We play vanilla, on purpose to look at different things, yet you all blame cassell for everything. I suppose it is his fault we lost the Superbowl as well?

Often, on "normal" teams with average QB's - the QB controversy comes up when the back up looks better then the starter because back ups are going out against the 2's and the 3's, hence they look good. I think what we have here is the back up to the back up looking good as he plays with our 2's against other teams 2's & 3's.

 

[Deus Irae]

The difference there is Brady had played in ALOT of games prior to his one mistake that night and you can always allow the great ones to mess up once in a while.

With the FEW times Casell has been on the field he has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G but to ensure that the opposing team's chances to win will remain well into the game or if the opposition is ahead, they will stay there.

If New England was down by 14 points with 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter and Cassel is in the game at starting QB I would say you have a
less than a snowball's chance in hell to hope for anything but to expect the inevitable loss,maybe even inflate the opponents score during that time.

Cassel has played significant minutes in only 1 'real' game in his NFL career. He played pretty well in that game. But you go right ahead and pretend you know what you're talking about.

 

[PATRIOT64]

Ummm.... how many regular season or playoff games has Brady missed since Cassel has been on the team?

READ- It says GARBAGE TIME - PRESEASON

During the MIAMI game LAST YEAR it WAS GARBAGE TIME - and even in GARBAGE TIME Casell found a way to fu(k up - How many backup QBs can find a way to fu(k up a lead that looked insurmountable like Cassel did?

If BB thought Cassel could do the job and finish, then Brady would have sat the rest out,Obviously BB thought better and put cassel's ass back on the bench where it belonged and let the REAL QB seal the deal or who knows if Miami would have won thier second game that day - Cassel was like Santa Claus for the few minutes he was in.

Stuff like that makes me scratch my head as to what he has to remain here besides no major competition behind him

 

[PATRIOT64]

Cassel has played significant minutes in only 1 'real' game in his NFL career. He played pretty well in that game. But you go right ahead and pretend you know what you're talking about.

Tell me Deus of how many starting NFL QBs have you seen pulled from a game then sent back in because the replacement #2 could not even get the job completed that he was sent in there to do - Cassel could not even finish the game without letting Miami score and have some hope still that should not have even been possible before Brady left.

Name me some instances where you have seen this before and get your little links ready for me to read it - I patiently await your little links to prove its happened LOTS before - I can't remember ANY and if there are I want to know when and where it happened.

Last time I looked,#2s purposes were if the starting QB gets hurt to go in and do your best to help the team win or to be in during garbage time slots so the starting QB has the rest of the time off of the meaningless remainder of the blowout -

Not to go in and give the starting QB a break which his exactly what he did in his ONLY regular season appearance last year which he could not finish on his own,he needed big Tommy to come back in to finish business..and thats pathetic for a guy making a lot of money to fail to finish things out like he was supposed to - He is worthless and hopefully will play as another teams #4 QB soon at minimum salary

 

[Deus Irae]

Tell me Deus of how many starting NFL QBs have you seen pulled from a game then sent back in because the replacement #2 could not even get the job completed that he was sent in there to do - Cassel could not even finish the game without letting Miami score and have some hope still that should not have even been possible before Brady left.

Name me some instances where you have seen this before and get your little links ready for me to read it - I patiently await your little links to prove its happened LOTS before - I can't remember ANY and if there are I want to know when and where it happened.

Did you have a secret conversation with BB that nobody else has had? If not, then perhaps you shouldn't be ascribing rationale to the action.

 

[Deus Irae]

READ- It says GARBAGE TIME - PRESEASON

During the MIAMI game LAST YEAR it WAS GARBAGE TIME - and even in GARBAGE TIME Casell found a way to fu(k up - How many backup QBs can find a way to fu(k up a lead that looked insurmountable like Cassel did?

If BB thought Cassel could do the job and finish, then Brady would have sat the rest out,Obviously BB thought better and put cassel's ass back on the bench where it belonged and let the REAL QB seal the deal or who knows if Miami would have won thier second game that day - Cassel was like Santa Claus for the few minutes he was in.

Stuff like that makes me scratch my head as to what he has to remain here besides no major competition behind him

I understand your argument. It's just pathetic. There is no basis for evaluation by fans other than the one game he played real minutes. That's it.

 

[patchick]

I don't know how the QB battle will shake out, I don't know what the parameters have been for the various quarterbacks while on the field, and I'm concerned that this team is in trouble no matter who lines up under center if it's not Brady. However, I'm reasonably sure that it's not going to come down to Belichick saying "What the hell have I been thinking for 3 years with this kid?".

I have to assume that Cassel has, indeed, shown a lot in meetings and practices. He's presumably shown himself to be intelligent, hard-working and athletic, and knows the playbook backwards and forwards...in meetings and practices. He wouldn't have been the team's #2 QB if he hadn't. But every time they give him a chance to demonstrate all he's learned against a live opponent, he just seems to crumple up like a piece of tin foil.

That makes for a tough decision: do you keep the guy who looks better in every single non-game situation all year round, or the guy who seems less talented and less ready but shows more poise on the field in a much smaller sample of viewings? Like most fans here I'm pulling hard for Gutierrez, but obviously we've only seen one side of the whole picture.

 

[Deus Irae]

But every time they give him a chance to demonstrate all he's learned against a live opponent, he just seems to crumple up like a piece of tin foil.

That's absolutely incorrect. It is, sadly, the way that too many people 'analyze', though.

 

[PATRIOT64]

Deus - You may very well be the ONLY fan in Patriots Nation who sees Cassel in any other light but a worthless piece of garbage other than holding a clipboard (with both hands so he doesn't drop it)

Are you maybe a relative of Matt? - Must be

 

[PATRIOT64]

I have to assume that Cassel has, indeed, shown a lot in meetings and practices. He's presumably shown himself to be intelligent, hard-working and athletic, and knows the playbook backwards and forwards...in meetings and practices. He wouldn't have been the team's #2 QB if he hadn't. But every time they give him a chance to demonstrate all he's learned against a live opponent, he just seems to crumple up like a piece of tin foil.

That makes for a tough decision: do you keep the guy who looks better in every single non-game situation all year round, or the guy who seems less talented and less ready but shows more poise on the field in a much smaller sample of viewings? Like most fans here I'm pulling hard for Gutierrez, but obviously we've only seen one side of the whole picture.

Didn't Cassel have 6 interceptions in the last 2 days of camp prior to week 1 of preseason as noted on this forum?

I think that is an indication of what we have in this player - nothing

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus - You may very well be the ONLY fan in Patriots Nation who sees Cassel in any other light but a worthless piece of garbage other than holding a clipboard (with both hands so he doesn't drop it)

Are you maybe a relative of Matt? - Must be

I'm just someone who understands that what ignorant people see is often completely different from what the more knowledgeable people and coaches see.

 

[patchick]

That's absolutely incorrect.

We can disagree, fine. But all I have to go on is statistics and my eyes, and neither of them encourages me.

I have a memory of him as a rookie, getting into a preseason game and practically exuding joy at just being able to play live football, finally! He was a bit of a mess, tried to make too many plays with his feet, etc., but he had a surprising confidence about him. I also remember going to camp that year and watching the (5?) QBs, trying hard not to look at the numbers on the jerseys until after the drill. #16 really stood out as a talent.

This year in camp, it was a whole different story. #16 looked awful to me. And when he's taken the field in preseason games, the offense has looked totally out of rhythm. Something seems seriously wrong when Cassel gets on the field.

That's what I see. You may see something different, and I'd be happy to hear about it. But a simple statement that everything I've seen is "incorrect" doesn't persuade me of anything.

 

[Raffy15]

cassel is a skidmark on the underpants of society.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I'm just someone who understands that what ignorant people see is often completely different from what the more knowledgeable people and coaches see.

On many aspects you are correct in how you're looking at it. Before seeing him play horrible this year however this is the way I see it.

Does he have the arm strength to be a legit QB in this league?
Cassell does not even appear to have the zip on the ball that Noddle Man has.

 

[Real World]

I think the Matt Cassell experiment is over. There is no way O'Connell gets cut, being a 3rd round pick, and carrying 4 QB's is not likely. I wish MC the best, and hope he gets picked up by a team that can give him some live snaps. Gutierrez is here to stay IMO.

 

[Raffy15]

On many aspects you are correct in how you're looking at it. Before seeing him play horrible this year however this is the way I see it.

Does he have the arm strength to be a legit QB in this league?
Cassell does not even appear to have the zip on the ball that Noddle Man has.

cassel would be my first pick if i was running a flag football team.

 

[Deus Irae]

We can disagree, fine. But all I have to go on is statistics and my eyes, and neither of them encourages me.

I have a memory of him as a rookie, getting into a preseason game and practically exuding joy at just being able to play live football, finally! He was a bit of a mess, tried to make too many plays with his feet, etc., but he had a surprising confidence about him. I also remember going to camp that year and watching the (5?) QBs, trying hard not to look at the numbers on the jerseys until after the drill. #16 really stood out as a talent.

This year in camp, it was a whole different story. #16 looked awful to me. And when he's taken the field in preseason games, the offense has looked totally out of rhythm. Something seems seriously wrong when Cassel gets on the field.

That's what I see. You may see something different, and I'd be happy to hear about it. But a simple statement that everything I've seen is "incorrect" doesn't persuade me of anything.

1.) You have been around long enough to know that you should never evaluate a quarterback based solely (or mostly) upon your eyes in preseason games.

2.) In the only extensive play he's ever gotten in a game that had any kind of meaning, he performed quite well.

3.) Perhaps you missed last night's game. Cassel, despite the cries of the mob, played pretty well in the face of terrible offensive line play.

 

[stcjones]

The way he stood in the pocket without dancing around and the way he stood in his own end zone confident and waiting patiently for as long as he could for an open DeVree down field at the 30 and the way he took the team down the field twice with the Eagles knowing he was going to throw every down was very impressive.It shows me there should no longer be a competition for the #2 QB on this team unless BB is so close to Cassel he does not want to upset him or maybe Cassel is some type of leader guy or so well loved in the locker room,otherwise to me its not even close anymore.

Not to mention Gutierrez had that Brady-like presence inside the 10 when the team was getting their final TD on finding Jones right down the center of the end zone with 3 defenders blanketing the WR and throwing the ball low enough to catch it but yet no chance for an interception.

Did you also notice of how the OL seemed to look more confident and somehow showed better awareness when Gutz was in there compared to how they just were getting killed about at the LOS when Cassel was the QB?

If there is no sudden call for a vet QB this week I think this race is over and Gutz is #2 by a mile- - If not, there is simply something wrong with this picture - Gutz deserves the #2 job or he is getting majorly screwed by the team.

I also had some inner confidence that he would lead the team to scores when he was on the field,unlike the gloom and doom I had when Cassel was 'trying' to make a play.

Been saying this for weeks if not months now....could not agree MORE.....good post

 

[stcjones]

I don't claim Cassel is safe from being cut. I've put forth my point as to why it seems to me that he's the team's #2 QB right now, and I don't attack players based upon exhibition games without knowing what should be happening, and without taking into account the different personnel involved as well.

Realistically, it's only the kickers, punters and return men that the viewer can truly evaluate on anything approaching an even playing field with the coaching staff during these exhibition games, because we simply don't know the variables involved with the other players.

Last night's game was a perfect example. Throngs of fans were clamoring for the head of Cassel and ballwashing Gut. Meanwhile, Cross, who's actually played the game and was trying to give an even appraisal of things, was defending Cassel's play and pointing out how Gut was getting away with some jump ball throws as well as throwing to players who were actually open and having time to make the throws because the line was giving him the time it didn't give Cassel.

Why WOULDN'T fans be excited with Gutz play and disgusted with Cassel's???... I do think that last night our O line's abysmal play did not help Cassel's cause....but you need to react faster when you are in there.....Gutz (with some Philly starters in there) dealt with similiar collapses of our terrible OL and made something happen......Lastly, before some of these mediots start attacking Gutz for making "Jump ball throws" they should listen to several of their colleagues on NFL network who were saying "These out routes to the endzone and the throws that allow the receiver to go up and make a play on the ball here....reminds me an awful lot of Tom Brady" Now, let's not go too crazy here.....but think about it.....Brady throws alot of those touch passes and high "jumps" in the endzone......

 

[Deus Irae]

As I made clear, I've watched him closely in both preseason and training camp for four years now. What other evidence do any of us have to go on? I knew enough from my much-maligned eyes to know he was making the team in year 1 and supplanting Davey in year 2. Then in year 3, I felt a little concerned that he seemed, if anything, to be backslide. This year from the start of camp, he's had me seriously worried.

So Deus, if you "know enough" not to evaluate Matt Cassel based on your eyes, what are you using?

That's the whole point. I'm not evaluating Cassel under the circumstances. How is it fair for a fan to evaluate the #2 quarterback when he's playing in these conditions?

Let me put it another way....

List for me the #2 quarterbacks in the NFL that you would expect to play well if they were:

1.) Playing against the opponent's #1 defense
2.) Playing without a game plan against teams using game plans
3.) Playing behind an offensive line missing its best run blocker, its starting left tackle, and frequently its starting center, as well as playing the starting right tackle out of position for one of those 3 games
4.) Playing all the above against the following defenses: Ravens, Eagles, Bucs