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Not smoking anything. Field position and putting the defense back on the field after they got off. Also, when a team jumps out of big lead, it changes things. I don't think you can pin the loss on the defense when the offense put them behind so early.

I haven't pinned the loss on a single unit at all. This is where I laugh at all the people that didn't read past the first paragraph. The offense was just as much to blame as the defense for the loss. However, people are trying to point out that the defense is not to blame. Like I've said time and time again, the offense was responsible for giving the Ravens 14 points. By my estimation, the defense is responsible for giving them 19. Not exactly a solid outing when you're going up against an offense as one-dimensional as the Ravens were today. If you want me to make a point about the defense, I could easily bring up the Colts, Saints, and Texans games. Should I do that, or would I be beating a dead horse by that time?

As far as your TE argument goes, I think you could throw RBs as receivers in there as well. But does that point to a lack of talent with Watson/Baker/Rbs or a choice by the designers of the offense? I think it's a coaching/TB choice.

I'd point to the latter on top of the fact that the offensive line has needed Baker and Watson's help all season long. An improvement on the O-Line should improve both Brady's health, the run game, and the passing game.
 
Not much I don't disagree with. My thoughts are rather simple. The team itself has regressed and the organisation is full of yes men (i.e perhaps its time for an infusion of non-Belichick disciples) or people who aren't ready to be thrust in the limelight in the coaching ranks.
 
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Wrong. What I said was, "I can't wait to be told how I'm wrong and how there is absolutely nothing wrong with the team." This means that I cannot wait for people to tell me that I am wrong. And, I cannot wait for people to tell me how there is nothing wrong with the team.


Yeah, that's what I said you said. There is you and everyone else must think there is nothing wrong with the team. Nice way to separate people. I can agree with some and disagree with others, but I guess I must fit into one category. I'm either with you or I must think there is nothing wrong with the team. That's convenient for any argument you make.


In case you haven't noticed, I made the thread. I am the thread creator. As such, I can do whatever the hell I want with those numbers.

Is that how it works? Start a thread and you are off limits. Then keep starting threads and you're be covered with doing whatever the hell you want. Nice.
 
This post is kind of weird coming from you because I've said the LB's and defense has been bad for a while, yet you found a way to disagree with me.
 
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Yeah, that's what I said you said. There is you and everyone else must think there is nothing wrong with the team. Nice way to separate people. I can agree with some and disagree with others, but I guess I must fit into one category. I'm either with you or I must think there is nothing wrong with the team. That's convenient for any argument you make.




Is that how it works? Start a thread and you are off limits. Then keep starting threads and you're be covered with doing whatever the hell you want. Nice.

So basically you have no argument and would rather attack the person instead of his points. Very well then. Have a nice day.
 
Like I've said time and time again, the offense was responsible for giving the Ravens 14 points. By my estimation, the defense is responsible for giving them 19.

I and others know you pin the 19 points on the defense, but I and others don't think it's that clear. We'll leave it at that. I feel the offense put the defense in a bad way all game. I agree that NO and Indy point to a defense unable to defend against elite offensives. I just thought was something else today.
 
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This post is kind of weird coming from you because I've said the LB's and defense has been bad for a while, yet you found a way to disagree with me.

You said that Mayo was bad, and I disagreed with you. Mayo is actually pretty good. He was the DROY last year and was hurt all year this season, on top of being one of the only true threats in the second level. I've been saying for weeks that the LB corps outside of Mayo is incredibly week. I've been saying that the entire defense, outside of Wilfork, Warren, Mayo, the safeties, and Bodden is bad. Check one of my many debates for the past couple of months.

Oh, and didn't you also say that Meriweather was bad?
 
So basically you have no argument and would rather attack the person instead of his points. Very well then. Have a nice day.

It's your words man. I attacked your words.
 
You said that Mayo was bad, and I disagreed with you. Mayo is actually pretty good. He was the DROY last year and was hurt all year this season, on top of being one of the only true threats in the second level. I've been saying for weeks that the LB corps outside of Mayo is incredibly week. I've been saying that the entire defense, outside of Wilfork, Warren, Mayo, the safeties, and Bodden is bad. Check one of my many debates for the past couple of months.

Oh, and didn't you also say that Meriweather was bad?
No, I didn't say Merriweather was bad. And I never said Mayo was bad either. I said his play hasn't lived up to the 10th overall selection in the 2008 draft. Whether you care for it or not, Merrill Hodge did a nice break down on Jerod Mayo last night and showed how Mayo is late reacting to run plays and can't shed blocks after being engaged. I used to think if a player had a ton of tackles, he must be good. Getting lots of tackles are overrated in today's NFL because it's a passing league. The point that many of us are trying to make about Mayo is that most of his tackles are after 4-5 yards down field. He's a decent player, but he's not the impact player many people believe he is on this board.
 
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Just an all around tough loss to deal with.
The offense, with Brady and the dreadful play calling, hung the rest of the team out to dry this afternoon. That said, this defense IS soft, both physically and mentally. There is a lack of leadership on the D (please lord lets get McLain in here) our linebackers collectively are a weak unit and when you run the 3-4, they need to be THE strength of the team.
Our Defense is soft. There is no getting around it. Hell, even BB knows this, which explains the 4th and 2 at Indy.
There is a lot of work to be done here and it will be a very interesting offseason.
I guarantee that BB sees where the problems are. How can he not?
 
No, I didn't say Merriweather was bad. And I never said Mayo was bad either. I said his play hasn't lived up to the 10th overall selection in the 2008 draft. Whether you care for it or not, Merrill Hodge did a nice break down on Jerod Mayo last night and showed how Mayo is late reacting to run plays and can't shed blocks after being engaged. I used to think if a player had a ton of tackles, he must be good. Getting lots of tackles are overrated. The point that many of us are making about Mayo is that most of his tackles are after 4-5 yards down field. He's a decent player, but he's not the impact player many people believe he is on this board.

Many of the times, those tackles are tackles that guys playing around him should have had. Is he a difference maker? No. But, outside of Patrick Willis, I can't think of many ILB's that are. Their job is to do the dirty work. That's especially Mayo's role in this defense. On top of that, like I said, he's been injured all season. An offseason to rest and come in healthy in 2010 will do him a world of good.
 
No, I didn't say Merriweather was bad. And I never said Mayo was bad either. I said his play hasn't lived up to the 10th overall selection in the 2008 draft. Whether you care for it or not, Merrill Hodge did a nice break down on Jerod Mayo last night and showed how Mayo is late reacting to run plays and can't shed blocks after being engaged. I used to think if a player had a ton of tackles, he must be good. The point that many of us are trying to make about Mayo is that most of his tackles are after 4-5 yards down field. He's a decent player, but he's not the impact player many people believe he is on this board.

To be fair, I think Mayo hasn't been 100% since spraining his MCL early in the season.
 
Posted on another thread but fits better here

I do not share the optimism articulated by many here

Offensive coaching staff is an utter disaster and clearly would not adjust to predictable defensive counters to their"schemes" Keep Dante-Fire the rest

Defensively I would agree Pees was hampered by a lack of onfield talent and experience. I do fault him for some repeated passive 10 yard off the wide receiver CB play when holding a lead. No pressure on the opposing QB was a killer in almost all the games. I would prefer a change here too

And now the players.....

Oline
Light- Not playing at a high enough level to justify a starting LT slot
Mankins- A suprising dissapointment considering his contract status
Koppens- Pathetic ( Draft a quality center NOW)
Neals- A true warrior who's chronic injuries may end his carreer
Kaczur- Pathetic (maybe the worst contract extention decision BB ever made)

TE's
Watson- Inconsistant and a pending UFA (Bye Bye Ben)
Baker- Decent blocker but can't get open for key receptions

Slot
Welker- We all pray for him
Edelman- Good potential and shows a lot of guts

WR
Moss- Aging and a head case but still a dangerous deep threat. No bargain at his salary but who would replace him?
Aiken- Worthless (send him back to special teams and keep him there)
Tate- 2 serious knee injuries. Big question mark

RB
Maroney- Had his chance a blew it by commiting key fumbles and missing blocking asignments. I believe BB has finally lost faith. Bye Bye Larry
Faulk- An aging warrior worth keeping for 1 more year
Morris- Brittle and aging (may be gone next year)
Taylor- Gone

QB
Brady was gutsy but showed an alarming tendency to force the ball and picks resulted. In my mind this was a function of a number of factors.
Injuries
Bad OLine play
Horrible and predictable offensive scheme
No 3rd reciever coupled with weak TE play
No consistent running game

Nevertheless his poor decisions cost us big when simple throw aways would have limited the damage

Hoyer- Decent 2nd line QB

D'Line

Wilfolk-A great player that may price himself out of Foxboro
Warren- A good lineman but suffered in Seymore's absence due to added doubleteams
Wright- OK not great Ok
Prior- Good potential
Brace- A 2nd round steaming turd
Burgess- And expensive Jeckyl and Hyde type. Not much to build on there
Green- Expensive version of the Invisible Man (Bye Bye)

LB

Thomas- Bye Bye
Mayo- I hope the dropoff was injury related. If not we got serious problems
TBC- A pleasent surprise
Guyton- Weak on the run and pass. Dump him

CB
Springs- Aging and injury prone. Moments of magic surrounded by mediocrity
Bodden- A keeper if BB wants to pay his price
Butler- Raw but has talent. Needs to work on technique
Wheatly- No progress this year. Give him one more shot
Wilhite- I would not let him land at Logan

Safety
Sanders- Overpaid with poor tackling skills. At best a backup
Merriwether- Overhyped route jumper with poor tackling skills
Chung- Showed me nothing.
McGowen-Strong start-faded in the stretch. I don't know what to think

Punter
Hanson- What more need be said

Kicker
Ghost- Good to great kicker. BB will pay a pretty penny to keep him

If this was a transition year then next will be a housecleaning one
Coaches and players should and I beleive will pay the price for this ugly season

IMHO
 
The biggest difference between the players in 2001-2004 and the players in 2009 is a lack of attention to detail and fundamentals. Poor tackling is the biggest problem on the defense. How many times did Rice or McGahee escape the first one or two tackles to turn a no-gainer into 5-7 yards? It probably happened nearly a dozen times. You can fault the players, but that falls squarely on coaching. This Patriots' D is one of the worst tackling defenses I've seen in the Belichick era. Terrible.

Contrast with Baltimore's D today. That's how the Pats used to play.
 
Let's be straight about this. We don't have a Ray Lewis and an Ed Reed.

The biggest difference between the players in 2001-2004 and the players in 2009 is a lack of attention to detail and fundamentals. Poor tackling is the biggest problem on the defense. How many times did Rice or McGahee escape the first one or two tackles to turn a no-gainer into 5-7 yards? It probably happened nearly a dozen times. You can fault the players, but that falls squarely on coaching. This Patriots' D is one of the worst tackling defenses I've seen in the Belichick era. Terrible.

Contrast with Baltimore's D today. That's how the Pats used to play.
 
They need to add better players to surround him with.

I won't disagree with this. The Pats need to open up the checkbook when it comes to the LB corps this season. ESPECIALLY if there is an uncapped year.
 
Let's be straight about this. We don't have a Ray Lewis and an Ed Reed.

You're confusing talent with sound technique. The Pats D was always well coached on the fundamentals and the end result on the field was quickness to the ball, sound tackling, and few whiffs in the backfield and in open space. That's how the Pats used to play and how Baltimore played today. I can't say it any plainer than that.
 
I won't disagree with this. The Pats need to open up the checkbook when it comes to the LB corps this season. ESPECIALLY if there is an uncapped year.
The only LB that might be available without giving up draft picks is Karlos Dansby. Other than that, the Pats would have to give up some picks to acquire good free agents as all of the good players are going to be restricted because it's uncapped.
 
The defense is not "bad," and saying that doesn't make me a homer. If you want to see a "bad" defense, watch a Lions game. Watch a Giants game. The Patriots defense is slightly above average. It certainly can't carry the team when the offense is creating turnover after turnover. I would give it a C+.

While it's great to point out games where the defense obviously fell apart, like Indy, there are others where they were able to maintain close leads--like the Panthers game, or Bills game, for instance. Maybe you can argue that those were sub-par offenses, but the Panthers went on to crush the Vikings and some other good teams. We also annihilated the Jets a few weeks back.

They're able to zero-in on one-dimensional offenses, and for the most part, contain them. You can take that for granted if you want, but a lot teams don't have that kind of defense. That's why I say they're above average. No doubt it needs a lot of work, but with a few more pieces, better tackling, and actual leadership from the players, and it could develop into an impressive unit at some point in the future.

But the Patriots have more problems than the defense. Like 2007, our offense really slowed down toward the end of the year. We lack a consistent threat on the ground, and the offensive line needs more talent. I'd like see some maulers added at right guard and tackle.

Edelman is going to be a very good receiver in a few years, and perhaps sooner depending on the kind of offseason he has. Despite what people say, he isn't Wes Welker; he's a better vertical threat than Wes is and that should bode well for the offense. Brandon Tate was a waste of a third round pick.

While I believe the defense has potential, I'm not sure that the Patriots will make the right moves to bring it along. We need more power on the defensive line, another inside linebacker, and a pass rusher. I think our secondary is good enough if we can re-sign Leigh Bodden; there are several young players back there who haven't reached their full potential yet.

I also still like the Seymour trade. I felt that was a good move--as long as we re-sign Vince Wilfork. If that doesn't happen, it won't make any sense to me. I understood the Seymour trade in the context of the Patriots not being willing to shell out the cash for him in 2010, presumably because they had so many other players to negotiate with, like Wilfork. In that scenario, it makes a lot of sense to get some value for Seymour, and a high first round pick is excellent value. Some of you who criticized that trade might be singing a different tune on draft day in 2011, assuming we actually use the pick.

However, if they don't pay Vince in the offseason, the team is in big trouble.

As far as the rest of the offseason is concerned, I'd grade 2009 as a C. There were some poor free agent signings (like Galloway and Springs--no 34 yr old corner should get a 3-year deal, even if they're still a decent player) and a few horrible trades (Greg Lewis, Derrick Burgess, Alex Smith).

At the same time, there were some good moves, like signing Leigh Bodden, bringing Tully Banta-Cain back, and trading down to get Darius Butler and Julian Edelman. So it isn't as bad as the panic-button mashers want to believe. But no doubt it needs to be much more consistent in 2010. I hope Belichick really does take a look back at 2009 and learn from it.
 
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