Hmmmmmmmm

[Kontradiction]

There's a lot in your thread I'm in agreement with. Unfortunately, there will be homers who go ostrich, so we'll hear the same crap about this team for another year, unless Belichick does a much better job of both front office work and coaching.

That's another part I forgot to bring up. That, IMO, BB should be as hands-off with his coordinators and the game calling as possible. Not sure who it was that called the draw play out of the shotgun 37 times today and who thought it would be a good idea on 3rd and 17. If it was O'Brien, he should quit right now. If it was BB, he should cease having ANY input on the offensive play calling and just stick to what he does best, the defense.

 

[Deus Irae]

You make a great point. Also I think it's worth noting that this D needed time to mature and gel, gain confidence. They were abandoned by their offense in the most critical formative moments. Jets-game 1, Indy, Miami-game 2, Houston and Denver. I am sure I missed one or two. This offense was terrible to watch this year. Long gone are the days of a pass catching FB and the play action pass.

The defense folded against good offenses, was decent against decent offenses, and looked solid against poor offenses. That's what happens when you have a suspect defense with good coaching to protect it.

 

[Hardboiled]

At least you use numbering (not sucessfully) as compared to our Virginia Melville. But feel a not to attempt numbering if you are writing a stream of consciousness.

I can't wait to be told how I'm wrong and how there is absolutely nothing wrong with the team...

Is that how it works? Disagree with you and you tell us what we are saying.
Sunshine, they got their ass kicked today. People know there is something wrong with the team. Or do you have a monopoly on that?

I'll start with:

2. An orgy of errors, starting in the offseason, have taken us up to this point.

This is a entry by itself? Refers to a different number. Or are you going to sub list those erros? An orgy? Big orgy? Small orgy?

I'll respond to some points. Numbers or bullets????? I'll go with bullets so not to confuse.

• Defense. Not an elite defense, but to judge the defense when the offense continued to turn the ball over again and again isn't really a good argument. There were other games this year to make that point. Not this one.
  
• Seymour. I'll be in the no difference camp. He can play pattie-cake somewhere else. Pass rush was an issue with him.
  
• Galloway. Really? You bring up Galloway? If Joey Galloway would have make a difference to a team - that team is a bad team.
  
• Linebackers used in a passing game? You mean TEs? I too have missed a TE receiving threat.
  
• Houston game. People have to play. Knees get blown out. He wasn't even hit. It happens.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's another part I forgot to bring up. That, IMO, BB should be as hands-off with his coordinators and the game calling as possible. Not sure who it was that called the draw play out of the shotgun 37 times today and who thought it would be a good idea on 3rd and 17. If it was O'Brien, he should quit right now. If it was BB, he should cease having ANY input on the offensive play calling and just stick to what he does best, the defense.

It didn't really matter what they called today. Brady was off, the Ravens were able to focus strictly on Moss on passing downs, and the line wasn't going to be able to set up the run against that defense when it was able to ignore the passing game the way it was today. They were facing Ngata and company today, not Jacksonville, Buffalo or Carolina.

 

[Hardboiled]

I'll add that I would love to judge the defense in a game where the team's star QB didn't continually give the ball back to the other team. His decisions today were rookie-like.

 

[teknos1s]

You can choose to believe that the patriots lost roday because of the defense and lost during the year because the defense produced less than expected. I would strongly disagree with bot assessments. The Defense failed to save the offense from their collapses. The defense was not the 2003 and 2004 defense.

the other team starting on our own 17, 42, 9, 22, and at the 50 today backs up your statement sir

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The offense sucked a big one today as well. I thought that would have been obvious given my post, but I guess I should make it more obvious. However, the defense should not be excused. One would think it's easy to shut down a one dimensional offense. Apparently, for the 2009 Patriots, it is not. Should I post the statistics the defense managed against the three good offenses we have faced this season to make a point?

Look, the offense was dreadful this year and in this game. They have a lot to improve on. However, the defense this year was just flat out bad. Baltimore was given 14 points today from our offense. They still earned 21 against our defense. That's way too many considering the defense only had defend against one aspect of the offense: the run game.

I wouldn't call the defense bad. Yeah they may not be the 5th best defense like the PPG says, but it's not a bad defense. I don't know where you get 21 from, I only counted 14 and one of those drives started around midfield. The defense played a similar game to the first game with the Ravens, just wasn't all on the ground like it was today. They gave up 14 points in that game (an early TD to put us down right away in that one as well), a 2nd half TD, and the other 7 was off a Brady fumble. It could've been that type of performance again today but when your offense not only goes 3 n out constantly, let alone turning the ball over in your own territory multiple times, it changes things completely for the defense. Too much pressure. This wasn't a good game to judge by that's all I'm saying. I think they performed admirably in the first game and it could have been that way today if the offense did it's part.

The Colts and Saints roughed us up, there's no denying that. But look at GB today alot of people consider them a great defense and they got lit up for 45. There's no defense that hasn't got lit up once or twice this year.

 

[The Coon]

DE is a HUGE need. Dare I say that it's just as big of a need as RG is?

No doubt about it DE is a huge need. DE, OG, OT, LB should be specific areas to target through the draft and FA. For WR, i would definitely try the FA route for some good WRs..cough..vincent jackson..cough

Im gunshy of taking another chad jackson bethel johnson in the draft..Proven WR entering the prime of their careers sounds more attractive to me

As for fullback, are we just neglecting this position feeling that its not important? We need a good fullback for pass protection just as much helping the run. I absolutely love that kid from USC, Havili. Every time ive seen him with the ball in his hands, the kid makes plays.

 

[mgteich]

You say that BB should be hands off his coordinators. Please post a reference to an official patriots site where it indicates that the patriots have an offensive coordinator under contract.

That's another part I forgot to bring up. That, IMO, BB should be as hands-off with his coordinators and the game calling as possible. Not sure who it was that called the draw play out of the shotgun 37 times today and who thought it would be a good idea on 3rd and 17. If it was O'Brien, he should quit right now. If it was BB, he should cease having ANY input on the offensive play calling and just stick to what he does best, the defense.

 

[Kontradiction]

At least you use numbering (not sucessfully) as compared to our Virginia Melville. But feel a not to attempt numbering if you are writing a stream of consciousness.



Is that how it works? Disagree with you and you tell us what we are saying.
Sunshine, they got their ass kicked today. People know there is something wrong with the team. Or do you have a monopoly on that?

This isn't even remotely a complete or coherent thought.

This is a entry by itself? Refers to a different number. Or are you going to sub list those erros? An orgy? Big orgy? Small orgy?

It's a simple and true statement. I listed below this post what those mistakes were. It seems that you are b!tching just to hear yourself b!tch. If that's what makes your nipples hard, then so be it.

Defense. Not an elite defense, but to judge the defense when the offense continued to turn the ball over again and again isn't really a good argument. There were other games this year to make that point. Not this one.

By my estimation, the offense gave the Ravens 14 points. That leaves 19 points in which the defense gave them. If you think that's a good defensive output against a one-dimensional offense, then I'd really like to have some of what you're smoking. It's apparently the fire.

Seymour. I'll be in the no difference camp. He can play pattie-cake somewhere else. Pass rush was an issue with him.

This is where I laughed so hard that I farted. Seriously? The last time the guy played in our defense, he recorded a team-high in sacks.

Galloway. Really? You bring up Galloway? If Joey Galloway would have make a difference to a team - that team is a bad team.

Yes, Galloway. Not sure what happened between him and Brady, but that was the reason he was let go. The coaching staff, for all of it's wisdom, did not want to simplify the offense for him. The result was a career special teamer becoming a starting WR. Not good.

Linebackers used in a passing game? You mean TEs? I too have missed a TE receiving threat.

Yes. I was very obviously talking about tight ends. But, uh, G00D POINTZ!!11!/

Houston game. People have to play. Knees get blown out. He wasn't even hit. It happens.

I understand that "people have to play", but the Big 3 didn't. Our postseason spot was already clinched. Cincy losing to the Jets that night made the decision seem even worse. Our offensive output today made the decision seem even worse.

 

[Kontradiction]

You say that BB should be hands off his coordinators. Please post a reference to an official patriots site where it indicates that the patriots have an offensive coordinator under contract.

Nice straw man. The guy that calls the plays is, essentially, the coordinator of the offense. O'Brien may not have the official title, which is what your argument (if I can even call it that) suggests, but he is essentially the OC.

 

[alvinnf]

The defense folded against good offenses, was decent against decent offenses, and looked solid against poor offenses. That's what happens when you have a suspect defense with good coaching to protect it.

I don't agree that they folded against good teams. They went into Indy and forced seven punts with four three and outs. Now down the stretch they where had and the momentum got to them. But at the same time that was one of those instances where the offense could have bailed them out and helped with their maturity. I am not going to shill for the D they have their problems of course. I think they are stuck between fronts with the wrong personnel. J.Mayo is a 43 linebacker. Period he really struggles to get around or get through blocks. I am not picking on him he's just one example. Another would be J. Green as a 34 two gappin end. I think the the coaching let this D down more than it helped it.

 

[MassPats38]

I'm thinking immediately after this loss is probably not the time to look for an objective assessment on either side. This team was beaten in every phase of the game. Beaten and beaten up. I wonder if Packers fans are joining this parade at this point, despite having a pretty decent D?

Suggs sacked and stripped Brady in a 3-man rush. That wasn't the D. The D with Wilfork and Warren has been good against the run this year, yet it gave up an 83-yard TD to start the game. Brady threw 3 INTs.

Would this team be more successful with Tate or McKenzie if they didn't get hurt? Will Brace evolve into a decent lineman? Would Seymour have saved the day today? Would Vrabel have provided the veteran leadership necessary to help this defense to gel and live up to its full capabilities? Will Burgess become more effective in this defense if given more time? I have no clue, and I suspect nobody else here does either.

I would love to see the Pats go to the power running game like the Dillon year, and not play homerun/whiff with the long passes as frequently as it does. That type of plan rests the defense and makes it play better as a result. I would love to see a defense like the Ravens, but, as I suspect we'll see, that defense will not take it to the title with the offense it has. And those fans have been waiting almost a decade to see a shot at a title, so let's not hear how the Ravens' organization has figured out how to succeed in the NFL.

But let's not lay this one solely on the D. The run D was poor to say the least. That may be attributable to short offense breaks involving turnovers and 3 and outs. Or maybe special teams stopping the returns inside the 50. The team as a whole was lousy today, and you just cannot play that badly and survive. At least we can safely say Welker's injury did not determine the season as I do not see the result from today changing with him healthy and on the field.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't agree that they folded against good teams. They went into Indy and forced seven punts with four three and outs. Now down the stretch they where had and the momentum got to them. But at the same time that was one of those instances where the offense could have bailed them out and helped with their maturity. I am not going to shill for the D they have their problems of course. I think they are stuck between fronts with the wrong personnel. J.Mayo is a 43 linebacker. Period he really struggles to get around or get through blocks. I am not picking on him he's just one example. Another would be J. Green as a 34 two gappin end. I think the the coaching let this D down more than it helped it.

The loss to the Colts was a team effort, and the call by Belichick was pivotal, but the defense folding enough to let up those points was certainly part of that effort.

 

[SVN]

Other than the start of the game with the long run the defense wasnt "BAAAAAD" this game. Honestly, all the ravens TD's came from 30 yards out. They were given HORRIBLE field position. be real.

the problem today was offense not being able to get anything done. putting the defense in a spot where they just couldn't win

yeah i thought that too but the best example for D. 2 mins to go the half and ravens backed up and everyone knew they were going to run and we still didnt stop them .so the short fields were an issue but the D didnt do its job when put in favorable situations. even the TBC int was because the ravens decided to throw for some inexplicable reason.

 

[Hardboiled]

This isn't even remotely a complete or coherent thought.

By your own words, if people disagree with you, then they think there is nothing wrong with the team. Do you not understand your own writing?

It's a simple and true statement. I listed below this post what those mistakes were. It seems that you are b!tching just to hear yourself b!tch. If that's what makes your nipples hard, then so be it.

HA. Then you don't make that a number! Sunshine, I'm crapping your use of numbers. My point is that your numbering sucks! How's that for clear? Nipples? Really? Or do you want to go back your your orgy?

 

[Hardboiled]

By my estimation, the offense gave the Ravens 14 points. That leaves 19 points in which the defense gave them. If you think that's a good defensive output against a one-dimensional offense, then I'd really like to have some of what you're smoking. It's apparently the fire.

Not smoking anything. Field position and putting the defense back on the field after they got off. Also, when a team jumps out of big lead, it changes things. I don't think you can pin the loss on the defense when the offense put them behind so early.

As far as your TE argument goes, I think you could throw RBs as receivers in there as well. But does that point to a lack of talent with Watson/Baker/Rbs or a choice by the designers of the offense? I think it's a coaching/TB choice.

 

[Kontradiction]

By your own words, if people disagree with you, then they think there is nothing wrong with the team. Do you not understand your own writing?

Wrong. What I said was, "I can't wait to be told how I'm wrong and how there is absolutely nothing wrong with the team." This means that I cannot wait for people to tell me that I am wrong. And, I cannot wait for people to tell me how there is nothing wrong with the team. You can tell me I'm wrong on any point all you want. However, there is a contingent of people here who seem to find absolutely nothing wrong with the team week in and week out. I expect the people who disagree with some of my points while finding some of my points valid (you) to join in on this thread with the people who think that every single one of my points, outside of point 12 are wrong.

HA. Then you don't make that a number! Sunshine, I'm crapping your use of numbers. My point is that your numbering sucks! How's that for clear? Nipples? Really? Or do you want to go back your your orgy?

In case you haven't noticed, I made the thread. I am the thread creator. As such, I can do whatever the hell I want with those numbers. And my numbering sucks, but then so does your debate style. So I guess we have something in common after all...

 

[SVN]

Nice straw man. The guy that calls the plays is, essentially, the coordinator of the offense. O'Brien may not have the official title, which is what your argument (if I can even call it that) suggests, but he is essentially the OC.

bb called a lot of plays today i think

 

[Hardboiled]

The defense folded against good offenses, was decent against decent offenses, and looked solid against poor offenses. That's what happens when you have a suspect defense with good coaching to protect it.

I'd use a different word than "folded." But yes, that seems to be a recurring theme.