Has PATs defense been dismantled?

[RayClay]

Samuel is a good cornerback, not the second coming. I personally think Wheatley will find his footing, and I'll take Whilhite, Bodden and Butler for the future, thank you very much. People forget Samuel was a 4th. Just because he eventually thrived in our system doesn't make him a superstar. He's got a good nose for the ball and he has faults too.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

I don't know that it's apparent NE is moving to more 4-3.

Last season NE ran a 3-4 in about 15% of their defensive snaps (per a Feb article on Green Bay's 3-4 conversion). NE also ran a 4-3 last year, but more than any other formation, they ran in a Nickel. I believe NE's defense is primarily designed to work in the Nickel, but it's also balanced to be effective whichever formation is used.

In pre-season Seymour was used as a DE in the 4-3, he wasn't needed inside because of Vince, Brace, Pryor, and Wright. He did play inside in the Nickel package, Wright or Pryor can replace him in that role (Green doesn't because Green was his partner inside).

Ty Warren will not be anywhere near Ted Washington's 2003 role, Wilfork has that job and he'll be backed by Brace and probably Pryor.

Burgess was primarily used as a 4-2-Nickel DE. He will crosstrain for OLB in either the 3-4 or 4-3. The #1 Nickel unit against Cincinnati was Burgess and TBC at DE. Thomas and Mayo at LB. Warren/Wilfork rotated with Green/Seymour, Wright or Pryor will now replace Seymour.

My initial post in this thread was based on what I saw in preseason. The 3-4 is not going away, the 4-3 is not taking over. This is a Nickel defense team. New paradigm time for folks.

Awesome............ Thanks for shaping our nuple minds

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Guyton replaces Bruschi, 2008 = upgrade
Burgress/Green replaces Vrabel = upgrade
Green/Brace replaces Seymour = downgrade
Meriweather replaces Harrison, 2008 = upgrade

Right on P1.

The OP will recognize.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Good points.

Then again, in 2002 we went 9-7 with a lousy defense. Then in the off season we replaced Brandon Mitchell with Steve Martin, a definite downgrade. Then a couple days before the season starts, Lawyer Milloy gets cut and instead of the tandem of Milloy and Harrison we get Harrison and some rookie who never played safety in his career, a downgrade of incredible proportions. And look how the D performed in 2003.

I see what you say, but I think the Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel etc were losing effectiveness and it was time to replace them with the next round of players.

Personallly, i like the 2009 D better than the 2008 D, but whatever, it's all on paper until Mondy nite.

Brandon Mitchell was the forgotten guy on our solid 2001 DL, Steve Martin replaced Brandon in 2002. In 2003 we got some scrub named TED WASHINGTON. And some stud named klecko.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Samuel is a good cornerback, not the second coming. I personally think Wheatley will find his footing, and I'll take Whilhite, Bodden and Butler for the future, thank you very much. People forget Samuel was a 4th. Just because he eventually thrived in our system doesn't make him a superstar. He's got a good nose for the ball and he has faults too.

Samuels had one great season. And it was definitely like you say a product of the system season.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I find it's better tasting than the urine so many want to serve. :snob:

LOL.

Our defense has got to be better than the shills around here want us to believe.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

FWIW, the Patriots were NOT risking losing Richard Seymour without compensation. At worst, they'd get a #3 in return, had he been signed away next year. So essentially, they traded:

Richard Seymour and a 2010, late Round 3 pick for a high 2011 First Round pick.

They traded away a potential 'contract issue' distraction for a pretty much guarenteed top five pick.

 

[Deus Irae]

They traded away a potential 'contract issue' distraction for a pretty much guarenteed top five pick.

They need to trade away Wilfork immediately, then, and trade Brady the moment the season is over.

 

[shmessy]

They need to trade away Wilfork immediately, then, and trade Brady the moment the season is over.

1) They are each better players at this stage of their careers and

2) both play positions of weaker depth than the one played by Mr. Seymour on the Patriots.

Pretty cut and dry.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

They need to trade away Wilfork immediately, then, and trade Brady the moment the season is over.

Why don't we go ahead and let BB handle those decisions?

 

[Uncle Meat]

double post.

 

[Uncle Meat]

6 out of 11 players on the Patriot defense are new starters. To me, that says question mark. It also says that the Pats' defense HAS been dismantled...if you don't call having over half of your defense as new starters "dismantling," I don't know when you would use that word. Whether or not some of the players that left "had to go" because of age or being on the downside is irrelevant, and doesn't change the fact of the overhaul. Also irrelevant is if some of these new starters played last year and did OK...you'll never see an easier schedule than last year in a long time. The Patriots lost people that were the face of the defense for years.

We've never really seen this defense play together as a unit. There is the question of chemistry, communication, etc...not to mention the overall idenity of the unit. Losing Seymour alone makes them a different defense this year. They still have good players on D, and you'd better hope they stay healthy.

 

[cstjohn17]

Another factor to consider is communications.
-- Sanders and Meriweather were really clicking toward the end of last season, they are picking up from that point and will be playing at a higher level before we even realize it. rebuttal - The problem is that they are both average NFL starters so they can have the best communication in the world but that will only mask their deficiencies

Brace is a clear upgrade behind LDE and NT over Green/Wright. rebuttal - Really? later this the post you mention Green as an upgrade over Seymour, so without playing a snap Brace is better than Seymour, Green and Wright. Wright has proven to be pretty effective, I would take him over a rookie.

Green/Wright may be considered a downgrade from Seymour, but spelling each other keeps the position fresher and both are much better suited for the RDE role than the other two positions. The drop-off is actually pretty slight.

Playing Wilfork as a 3-tech, or using Vince and Pryor/Wright (when healthy) to disrupt the interior is a clear upgrade in the 4-3. Brace is no downgrade as a NT in this formation. rebuttal - Really?

Green as a DE in the 4-3 is not a downgrade from Seymour. rebuttal - Seymour is a 5 time probowler, 6'6, 310 pounds, Green is a spot backup that has been practically invisible since the 2003 AFC Championship.

Sorry, I have to play a gigantic BS card, I hope you don't mind, my comments are in bold. I hope and expect the defense to gel and improve as the season progresses, maybe they are better than last year but the defense was terrible last year, the question is will this unit be effective enough to compete against the best teams in the NFL once the playoffs begin. No one knows the answer yet, but in the end it comes down to who plays the best not who is the best. If things go well the defense will only have to play 1 or 2 outstanding games to make the Superbowl, once there anything can happen.

 

[shmessy]

6 out of 11 players on the Patriot defense are new starters. To me, that says question mark. It also says that the Pats' defense HAS been dismantled...if you don't call having over half of your defense as new starters "dismantling," I don't know when you would use that word.

Linguistically, you would be closer if you used "reconfigured".

If they decreased the numbers of players on the D at any one time from 11 to 6, then you can say "dismantled".

Or you can use the word "dismantled" to describe what the Patriots D did to the incredible Colts O the last time the Patriots had a championship season- - the 2004 AFC Playoffs with Jarvis Green subbing for Richard Seymour.

That was a "dismantling".

 

[JSn]

Here's what Bill has to say about our D:

We haven’t played yet. I think it’s really dangerous to look at teams, including our team, on paper. That’s easy to do. This guy’s got this guy and this team’s got this guy and another team’s got somebody else. Last year, we were talking about Miami being 0-16 and they win the division. So I don’t think that means anything. It’s how the players play. It’s how the teams perform and we’ll start seeing that this weekend. The rest of it is really a bunch of hot air.

 

[Uncle Meat]

Linguistically, you would be closer if you used "reconfigured".

If they decreased the numbers of players on the D at any one time from 11 to 6, then you can say "dismantled".

Or you can use the word "dismantled" to describe what the Patriots D did to the incredible Colts O the last time the Patriots had a championship season- - the 2004 AFC Playoffs with Jarvis Green subbing for Richard Seymour.

That was a "dismantling".

Semantics. How about "overhaul?"

When over half of your defense is new starters, it ain't the same defense.

 

[jbb9s]

Pats defense will probably be ranked between 12 and 15th this year in terms of points allowed and probably worst b/c of their "bend dont break motto" in yards allowed.

Hopefully, they build some unity by Thanksgiving and Belichick can coach them up.

Between Woods/Guyton/Wilhite and Bodden - chances are pretty good that about 2 of them pretty much suck as a starter.

Please save me the rehotoric on Woods (assumign 4-3)and Wilhite not being Starters - they will be on the field for tons of plays even if they aren't pictured by CBS during the 1st drive.

God forbid there are any injuries - Alexander and TBC haven't improved much since their circus act in Indy 3 post seasons ago.

 

[AzPatsFan]

First, we don't know if Woods is replacing Vrabel. In a 4-3, Woods doesn't start.

Second, Guyton was arguably better than Bruschi last year. Bruschi was a liability in coverage and nothing special close to the line. I think Guyton is an upgrade.

Third, Meriweather replaced Harrison last year. People seem to forget that Harrison hasn't played football since October of last year. He missed the final ten games.

Fourth, whoever starts this year is not replacing Samuel. They are replacing Deltha O'Neal and Ellis Hobbs. Actually Whilhite already replaced O'Neal last year. Samuel hasn't played for this team for a year now.

Off thr [pre-rseason Woods had 1.5 sacks and 5 pressures,and should have had another sack when a QB ripped away fromhsi grasp. That would mean 6 plus sacls a year from his position,and he didn't play the whole preseason,exclusively. Other players like Burgess got snaps. That is only 150% of the sacks Vrabel produced last year. And it also exceeded all but one year of Vrabels' sack production during his career.

Dpwngrade? What downgrade?

The only downgrade is the loss of Seymour. That will certainly hurt as you can't replace a HOF player with even a good pro, and the Pats have several there, and not suffer in some degree.

Willhite/Springs replace Deltha O'neal, not Asante; and that is a hand's down upgrade. Bringing Asante into the discussion, doesn't apply; why not Ty Law too, or Ray Claiborne or Mike Haynes?

Last year was the big Defesnive downgrade as new comers played. All the way to a Top Tenth /Top Eighth record for Defense.

 

[mayoclinic]

Originally Posted by Box_O_Rocks
Another factor to consider is communications.
-- Sanders and Meriweather were really clicking toward the end of last season, they are picking up from that point and will be playing at a higher level before we even realize it. rebuttal - The problem is that they are both average NFL starters so they can have the best communication in the world but that will only mask their deficiencies

Brace is a clear upgrade behind LDE and NT over Green/Wright. rebuttal - Really? later this the post you mention Green as an upgrade over Seymour, so without playing a snap Brace is better than Seymour, Green and Wright. Wright has proven to be pretty effective, I would take him over a rookie.

Green/Wright may be considered a downgrade from Seymour, but spelling each other keeps the position fresher and both are much better suited for the RDE role than the other two positions. The drop-off is actually pretty slight.

Playing Wilfork as a 3-tech, or using Vince and Pryor/Wright (when healthy) to disrupt the interior is a clear upgrade in the 4-3. Brace is no downgrade as a NT in this formation. rebuttal - Really?

Green as a DE in the 4-3 is not a downgrade from Seymour. rebuttal - Seymour is a 5 time probowler, 6'6, 310 pounds, Green is a spot backup that has been practically invisible since the 2003 AFC Championship.

Sorry, I have to play a gigantic BS card, I hope you don't mind, my comments are in bold. I hope and expect the defense to gel and improve as the season progresses, maybe they are better than last year but the defense was terrible last year, the question is will this unit be effective enough to compete against the best teams in the NFL once the playoffs begin. No one knows the answer yet, but in the end it comes down to who plays the best not who is the best. If things go well the defense will only have to play 1 or 2 outstanding games to make the Superbowl, once there anything can happen.

1. I agree that Sanders is an average NFL safety, but Meriweather? Come on. He was way above average last year, and shows all the signs of making the jump to elite status this year. Plus I fully expect that Chung will emerge by the end of the season as a starter.

2. Only a fool would not consider Brace an upgrade over Wright at 3-4 NT. Wright is a nice player, but he is not an elite prospect. Brace is a major upgrade over Wright as a backup/replacement for Wilfork at NT, as a 4-3 DT next to Wilfork, and as a 3-4 DE. I believe that Brace will actually be a pretty decent replacement for Seymour as a 3-4 DE, which Wright and Green would never be. So, yes, really.

3. Box said that in the 4-3 Green is not a major downgrade from Seymour, not the 3-4. In the 4-3, I agree. Green has nice quickness and penetration, and his smaller size would not be as much of a detriment in the 4-3. I actually would amend Box's comments though, to say that Burgess in the 4-3 is not a major downgrade from Seymour. I can see us running a 4-3 with Warren-Wilfork-Brace-Burgess a lot, using Burgess off the edge. Burgess is a future pro-bowler and has twice the sacks that Seymour has over the past 4 years. He will never be the run-stuffer that Seymour is, but with Warren-Wilfork-Brace we will be hard to run against.

As you say, "the question is will this unit be effective enough to compete against the best teams in the NFL once the playoffs begin." No one has a crystal ball, but I see no reason at this point not to expect that we can't be. A lot of people liked our chances in the post-season last year the way we were playing in December, with Matt Cassel at QB and the worst defense we've had in a while. BB knows how to make his teams peak for the playoffs, and I expect that by December the defense will have gelled. I personally expect at least the following major changes by the end of the year:

1. A much more physical secondary which can play bump-and-run to buy more time for the pass rush, with a vastly improved 3rd down and red zone defense. I expect both Butler and Chung to have a substantial impact on the defense by the end of the season.

2. A much faster LB corps producing at least double their sack total from 2008, with Burgess, Thomas, Mayo and Guyton all applying pressure in a major way.

3. An extremely versatile DL throwing multiple formations, with Brace and Pryor both getting substantial playing time, and making it extremely difficult for opposing teams to run.

Put Warren, Wilfork and Brace on line and it will be hard for opposing teams to run. Bring Thomas and Burgess off the edges, with Mayo and Guyton providing the speed behind them plus the ability to come up the middle, and it will be hard for opposing teams to plug all the holes. Get the secondary to be more physical and bump opposing WRs off their routes, and play more effective man defense, and there should be more time to get to the QB. Throw in the ability to blitz Meriweather, Chung and the occasional CB (especially Butler), and there should be a lot of ability to wreak havoc.

It will take time to all come together. But there's certainly no reason to panic right now.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Yes our D was dismantled (what was left to it) and thank god it happened. Our D the last few years has been on a steady DECLINE. It had to be addressed.

IF we had kept all of last years D (or as much as possible) we would probably start off stronger on D this season, more unified than we will with our newly reformed D.

HOWEVER as the season progresses, I think our reformed, faster, younger, fresher D will gel and perform as a unit, improving overall , week by week. I do not expect it to meet or exceed out 2003 and/or 2004 D, but I do think we will be peaking at the end of the season and into the playoffs, the time when Offense starts to slow down a bit due to the weather, wear and tear, etc... and this is when we'll need our D to be it's best.

The D this year will start off finding it's way, making mistakes and learning from them. By the time all is said and done this season, I think we will see a considerable improvement not only compared to the beginning of this season, but also compared to 2008 and 2007, at least.

This year our D will be firing on all cylinders by weeks 15, 16, 17 and on, whereas the last few years our D was limping by week 8 and replaced by week 12 by mid season JAGs who were in turn limping in by week 14.

For the last 3 years many fans and the media have been harping about the NEP aging, ancient defense. So now it's revamped, remolded and reborn. and now the same media and many of the same fans are freaking out because we've "dismantled" our (once great) D.