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Has PATs defense been dismantled?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JR4, Sep 11, 2009.

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  1. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is the thinking on other fan sites. We see new improved D while
    other non Patriot fans see a Defense in transition with a lots to prove.

    Reasons goes something like:

    Green replaces Seymour -- downgrade
    Woods replaces Vrabel -- dowgrade
    Guyton replaces Bruschi -- downgrade
    Meriweather replaces Harrison -- downgrade
    xxxxx replaces Samuel -- downgrade

    some of those downgrades are short term until new player becomes seasoned Vet.
    Of course they are thinking of these old Vets as in their Prime.

    Plus - lots of new pieces that need to learn to play true team defense.
    Therefore there will be a learning curve this year and they still may not
    end up being as good as the old vets no longer here.

    While there is some truth to the above I still think the starters have the
    experience needed. I also think BB has changed what he wants to do on D
    and these players best fit his new concepts. I think it will be a faster defense.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  2. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Bingo, faster, younger, cheaper and worse...

    but if they can play at a league average level (22 PPG) the Pats will still make the playoffs. Hopefully they are the learning and improving type of defense.
  3. Jared

    Jared Rookie

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    Simpler answer is none of the bolded players are who they were in their prime. Only Vrabel could have stuck around, but was moved due to his cap number. Seymour was a downgrade, sure, but considering he was going to be gone at the end of the season, we're basically getting a free pick at the expense of one season of play.
  4. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Green ---> not at all as much of a downgrade as people think, particularly the way BB is gonna use the front 4 (he's faster and lighter than Sey).

    Woods ---> Not the way vrab's played last year, and he did not get younger this offseason.

    Guyton ---> That's only said by unobservant people. Silly at this point Bru (and we all love him) was toast.

    Meriweather ---> Rodney couldn't stay on the field last year. Brandon was already assuming Rodney's roll already.

    xxxxxx ---> Could be. Bodden looks solid so far, but the real issue is the other side with Springs/Wilhite. Time will tell.
  5. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First, we don't know if Woods is replacing Vrabel. In a 4-3, Woods doesn't start.

    Second, Guyton was arguably better than Bruschi last year. Bruschi was a liability in coverage and nothing special close to the line. I think Guyton is an upgrade.

    Third, Meriweather replaced Harrison last year. People seem to forget that Harrison hasn't played football since October of last year. He missed the final ten games.

    Fourth, whoever starts this year is not replacing Samuel. They are replacing Deltha O'Neal and Ellis Hobbs. Actually Whilhite already replaced O'Neal last year. Samuel hasn't played for this team for a year now.
  6. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    Good points.

    Then again, in 2002 we went 9-7 with a lousy defense. Then in the off season we replaced Brandon Mitchell with Steve Martin, a definite downgrade. Then a couple days before the season starts, Lawyer Milloy gets cut and instead of the tandem of Milloy and Harrison we get Harrison and some rookie who never played safety in his career, a downgrade of incredible proportions. And look how the D performed in 2003.

    I see what you say, but I think the Bruschi, Harrison, Vrabel etc were losing effectiveness and it was time to replace them with the next round of players.

    Personallly, i like the 2009 D better than the 2008 D, but whatever, it's all on paper until Mondy nite.
  7. loosebearing

    loosebearing Rookie

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    Dismantled has meaning of torn apart

    I prefer to think of it as a rebuilding year.

    And only BB can have a rebuilding year and still be ranked as one of the top 8 teams in the league
  8. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are some holes in those arguments. For starters those fans are probably thinking of previous years versions of the players that left, so it is like comparing apples to oranges. Are they comparing '09 Guyton to '09 Bruschi, or '03 Bruschi for example? Same goes with Harrison and Vrabel. Comparisons to how those vets played five or six years ago are irrelevant since they would not be playing at that same level this year.

    If they're comparing them to how they feel the vets would probably do this year, then they are simply proving that they don't know enough about the Pats to come up with that conclusion. The '09 version of Harrison is not as good as the '09 version of Meriweather, and the same holds true in the Bruschi and even Vrabel comparisons.

    The only position that they may have a point with is at DE with Seymour and Green. But considering the chance of Seymour walking away as a free agent next year, versus getting Oakland's #1 draft pick, then it is worth the downgrade. Samuel is another situation that you need to look a the big picture. Signing Seymour and Samuel to contract extensions would have caused major problems elsewhere on the roster in regards to having to cut other players and being unable to sign free agents.
  9. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Guyton replaces Bruschi, 2008 = upgrade
    Burgress/Green replaces Vrabel = upgrade
    Green/Brace replaces Seymour = downgrade
    Meriweather replaces Harrison, 2008 = upgrade
  10. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The 2008 defense has clearly been dismantled.
    The 2009 defense has just been freshly mantled.
    Given the 2008 version's subpar performance on certain key measures that led to lots of angst here, a little re-mantling was probably in order, no?

    The original post may be exaggerating the issue by referencing the 2006-2007 era defense, not last year's. Of the swaps listed, the only clear downgrade from 2008 in the original post is Seymour. Bruschi & Vrabel were no longer impact players last season; Samuel was already gone. Also, I'd argue that the non-Samuel & Harrison DB spots look like an improvement over 2007 at this point.

    I honestly have no instinct right now about how it's going to play out. With so many moving pieces, I don't expect to know for several weeks at least. I'm more intrigued than nervous, though.
  11. loosebearing

    loosebearing Rookie

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    Wow

    Great word patchick


    MANTLE
    2 an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another : the second son has now assumed his father's mantle.
  12. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Meriweather is an upgrade over Harrison (2007-2008), and Woods is an upgrade over Vrabel (2008).

    Of what you listed, the only definite downgrade is Seymour to whoever replaces him.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  13. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    The only carryover from the 2007 starters:

    Wilfork, Warren, Thomas, Sanders.

    The 'base' defense of 2007 was the 3-4. The 'base' defense may well be the 4-3 this season. Yes, the defense has been dismantled. That really shouldn't be in question.


    What's in question is the level of success in rebuilding. I think it's best to say that the jury is out on that, as opposed to claiming success or failure before week 1.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  14. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    "Dismantled" is a strong word...

    I mean, come'on... aside from Vrabel, Colvin, Hobbs, Seau, Bruschi, Harrison, Izzo, Sanders, Smith and Seymour, the defense doesn't look all that different from 2008.

    ;)
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  15. Sicilian

    Sicilian Rookie

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    I'm not ready to say Woods is an upgrade over 2008 Vrable AT ALL. Vrabel was not vintage Vrabel, but he's still better than an unproven Woods until I see otherwise.

    I think we'll be fine, as I think overall we've got more boosts than downgrades, but Woods replacing Vrabel is not one of them, at least not this year.
  16. loosebearing

    loosebearing Rookie

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    You don't think they'll be successful as a team. Or would you prefer to wait until the season is over before you have an opinion. Are you Glenn Ordway???

    It's a team game. Composed of 22 Players on offense and defense. You don't have to be perfect, just better than your opponent on that day.

    I say they will be "good enough" to get to the AFC Championship game - then it depends on the mantling of the newer players as to what happens after that.

    And with Deus BB I like the mantling and maturing process of 2009.
  17. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Wow! Sorry but I wish I had a huge JPEG of a Koolaid pitcher to post, as that would be really be the only appropriate way to respond to this post.
  18. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Harrison was barely a league-average safety in 2007 and 2008, and Vrabel played 2008 with a bum shoulder. They both used to be awesome, but they got old. Neither player was anywhere even close to his prime, but don't let that stop you from doing player evaluations based on name recognition. That's how the Raiders and Bengals do it, so it can't be all wrong ;)
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  19. dtbrks

    dtbrks Rookie

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    I don't know if the D is better "right now" or not, but I think they will be better by the end of the season.

    I do think it was the right more to "overhaul" to D because, over the last three seasons, the D had changes of closing out big games and couldn't.

    It was time
  20. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How do you know all of those are "downgrades"? are you basing it on their play last year? Or are you talking about when the latter were all in their prime?

    Seymour to Green - If the Pats were still playing the 3-4, Predonimantly, I'd agree with you. However, in the 4-3, Green is better coming out of the DE spot on the Pass Rush.

    Vrabel to Woods - Again, if they were playing the 3-4, I'd agree with you. However, Woods of today is probably better than Vrabel in the 4-3. Also, there is no guarantee that Vrabel wouldn't be lining up at DE and not OLB. OLB is where Woods is lining up.

    Bruschi to Guyton - I love Tedy's play. But, realistically, Guyton has passed him.. Guyton is learning to play ILB (3-4) and OLB (4-3). He's not a completed project yet. Bruschi wasn't a completed project in 2001 either.

    Harrison to Meriweather - As of today, no, its not a downgrade from Harrison to Meriweather. Meriweather has improved greatly since his rookie year. He's not the hitter that Harrison was, but he's better in coverage than Harrison ever was.

    Bodden to Samuel - I think that this is a wash, honestly. I think that Bodden will excel in this defense, much like he did under Crennel.
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