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Fourth-and-1 from the Pats’ 24-yard line


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What emoney is saying (I think/hope) with his poker analogy, is that sometimes weird stupid ass plays win, even if the percentages aren't with you.
I like my blackjack analogy from the other thread much better :D

So where are all the compliments for Barry Switzer being aggressive and going for the win and showing confidence in his offense as well as his defense (at the same time) when he did his go-for-it moment? Oh, wait... they failed to convert so the decision was a bad one.
 
That is basically what Belichick did yesterday. There is no payoff-tree, or stat, or math that can justify trying to gain a 1st down on your own 25, in exchange for possibly giving up a sure FG or possibly TD.

You are wrong from a math standpoint and I've explained to you why on numerous occasions, and Satch has contributed above, but you are just too (unjustifiably) arrogant to see your error.

Your error is that you are assuming subsequent events in the one case (i.e., not making the first down leads directly to Falcons points) but you are ignoring subsequent events in the other (i.e., you ignore the increased likelihood of the PATRIOTS scoring, controlling the clock, wearing down the defense, etc., that FLOW from getting the first down). When you take all these variables into account, it is indeed mathematically possible that going for it was the right call.
 
I like my blackjack analogy from the other thread much better :D
.

Your black jack analogy was good too.

Of course the stupid plays sometimes win, but they aren't justified based on math, stats, or payoff-trees. They are justified based on hunches or other intangible reasons.


By the way, I don't buy that Belichick did it to 'jump start' his defense or offense. He did it because BOTH were playing so well. He probably thought the D was doing so well he could risk it, and that the O was playing so well he could risk it. In no way did he roll the dice because his offense or defense were not already playing very well.
 
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You are wrong from a math standpoint and I've explained to you why on numerous occasions, and Satch has contributed above, but you are just too (unjustifiably) arrogant to see your error.

You're STILL trying to pretend you aren't a CLOWN who made a complete fool of himself last night?????

This clown admitted he's never heard of terms like payoff, payoff tree, benefit/payoff, and yet is trying to make mathematical claims when there are none (except when he's pulling numbers straight out of his arse which are laughable).


He also tried to claim last night that the payoff for Belichick for going for it, was +3 Patriots points, even though the actual benefit is a 1st down still deep in our own territory.

The reason this thread is so long, is directly related to how crappy our nation's school systems are. This reminds me of that movie Idiocracy, anybody see it?
 
You're STILL trying to pretend you aren't a CLOWN who made a complete fool of himself last night?????

This clown admitted he's never heard of terms like payoff, payoff tree, benefit/payoff, and yet is trying to make mathematical claims when there are none (except when he's pulling numbers straight out of his arse which are laughable).


He also tried to claim last night that the payoff for Belichick for going for it, was +3 Patriots points, even though the actual benefit is a 1st down still deep in our own territory.

The reason this thread is so long, is directly related to how crappy our nation's school systems are. This reminds me of that movie Idiocracy, anybody see it?
My favorite part is how people are completely making up statistics, and then blaming you for not applying math or logic in your decision making process. :D
 
You're STILL trying to pretend you aren't a CLOWN who made a complete fool of himself last night?????

This clown admitted he's never heard of terms like payoff, payoff tree, benefit/payoff, and yet is trying to make mathematical claims when there are none (except when he's pulling numbers straight out of his arse which are laughable).


He also tried to claim last night that the payoff for Belichick for going for it, was +3 Patriots points, even though the actual benefit is a 1st down still deep in our own territory.

The reason this thread is so long, is directly related to how crappy our nation's school systems are. This reminds me of that movie Idiocracy, anybody see it?

Look, I'm happy you took a couple of finance classes at Mass Bay, but screaming about me being an idiot does not really address my point, or Satch's from above. Your style of argument - making conclusory statements and backing them up with insults - is not something I would expect from someone with such a fine educational pedigree.
 
My favorite part is how people are completely making up statistics, and then blaming you for not applying math or logic in your decision making process. :D

'Packer, I understand you're the tagalong type, but what he's saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the probabilities to favor going for it in that situation. That means, whichever variables you use, or "make up" as you say, it's always the wrong decision. I'm merely pointing out that there are a number of variables at play which he is not considering.
 
I'm trying 'Packer, but it's hard when you're acting like the "YEAH" guy from Trading Places.
 
'Packer, I understand you're the tagalong type, but what he's saying is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the probabilities to favor going for it in that situation. That means, whichever variables you use, or "make up" as you say, it's always the wrong decision. I'm merely pointing out that there are a number of variables at play which he is not considering.

As I've said already, you never have a large enough sample size to make an ev based decision.
 
I havent read the whole thread, but the appropriate analogy is making an excessively large bet on something you have a great chance of winning.
All in is not a good analogy because failing on that play does not mean you lose the game.
 
As I've said already, you never have a large enough sample size to make an ev based decision.

My argument with these guys is theoretical. I understand that BB is not going through complex probability calculations in his head using variables that only God could assign value to.
 
I havent read the whole thread, but the appropriate analogy is making an excessively large bet on something you have a great chance of winning.
All in is not a good analogy because failing on that play does not mean you lose the game.

Maverick's point, as far as I understand, is that because the penalty of losing is so great, it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE for the bet to be a good one. Maverick, am I misstating your premise?
 
As I've said already, you never have a large enough sample size to make an ev based decision.

Expected Value (EV) calculations are used everyday in strategical business decisions. In absolute theory, EV only comes to fruition when an infinite trials are run but unless you care about decimal places that only super computers can keep track of, you can usually live with a quantifiable number of trials. In some cases, such as airline price algorithms, they figure there are so many flights with so many seats that it is basically close enough to take EV fact - and they price accordingly by the second.

In a life or death situation, you may not want to go with EV. For example, if you had a 99% chance of me giving you 1MM tax free but a 1% chance of me killing you, you may not want to take that chance. You are NOT risk adverse. This is an example of not wanting to use EV to make a decision.

EV assumes you are risk adverse and should be used at all other time. Including football.
 
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Expected Value (EV) calculations are used everyday in strategical business decisions. In absolute theory, EV only comes to fruition when an infinite trials are run but unless you care about decimal places that only super computers can keep track of, you can usually live with a quantifiable number of trials. In some cases, such as airline price algorithms, they figure there are so many flights with so many seats that it is basically close enough to take EV fact - and they price accordingly by the second.

In a life or death situation, you may not want to go with EV. For example, if you had a 99% chance of me giving you 1MM tax free but a 1% chance of me killing you, you may not want to take that chance. You are NOT risk adverse. This is an example of not wanting to use EV to make a decision.

EV assumes you are risk adverse and should be used at all other time. Including football.
You are correct in what you are saying, but to even contemplate using ev you would have to have a decent sample size. The sample size being used here is something like five possessions which cannot give you any sort of decent calculation.
 
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You see this is all absolute rubbish, the reason being that you never have enough of a sample size to make an ev decision.
You cannot use previous seasons due to personnel changes on both teams, conditions of play on the day of a game. So you never have an adequate sample to make a decision like this mathematically.

Until you prove otherwise, all of the "risk/reward" plays in football are decided by STATS and MATH. What else would you base them on? I agree that there are a TON of factors, but you still can account for a good amount of them, and a good amount really aren't of much concern.

I disagree with you regarding the application of equity from a poker standpoint compared to football. It is completely applicable. If you consider making tournament equity calculations of specific plays and their effect on the outcome of the tournament, it is actually very similar to football. The "factors you can't control" also exist in poker too. I mean, there is one very obvious factor you can't control in poker... the cards! :rolleyes:

Let's just take a look at all of the factors that are necessary to take account of in the a 4th and inches situation:
The field position: we had it at our own 25
The game time: middle of the 3rd quarter
The game score: 16-10, 6 point lead
The opponent: Atlanta

That is the VERY basic. Compared to a poker decision, this would be like outlining a tournament situation where we are deciding whether to make a blind steal with a speculative holding. There are 6 players remaining, we are in the Cutoff position with 9T suited, we have 10 big blinds and the blinds are roughly 12 big blinds, and all fold to us.

The next step would be to estimate all of the outcomes.

In our football situation, the immediate outcomes are as such:
we punt and get (virtually) no chance at scoring points (on that drive)
we go for it and get the first
we go for it and turn the ball over

In poker, the outcomes are:
We fold and make a 0 EV play
We blind steal Allin and both blinds fold
We blind steal Allin and 1 blind calls
We blind steal Allin and both blinds call

Now you have to take a look at what the rewards/loss are for each outcome:

In football:
We Punt - no opportunity to score more points, likely gives ATL worse field position than going for it and losing.
When we convert - we have the opportunity to score more points, building a bigger lead, while we also kill more clock so that Atlanta has less time to make a comeback
when we fail - we lose the ball and give Atlanta great field position to score an almost automatic 3 and possibly 7

In poker:
We fold, and while we don't win or lose anything, we are going to have to make a move soon before blinding out and we just passed on one such opportunity.
We raise allin and both blinds fold, adding 1.5 big blinds to our stack
We raise allin and 1 blind calls. We either lose our entire stack, thus tournament, or we double up to 20 big blinds
We raise allin and both blinds call. We either lose our stack, or triple up to 30 big blinds.

Now, none of that yet includes any likelyhoods of such events happening. Thus, we need to include that, and figure out how to estimate such chances.

In football:
We need to first figure out how often we can expect to convert such a 4th down. You do that by looking at all the factors and making an educated guess. First, how has this team fared in the past on forth and short situations? In our case, this offense has been pretty similar since the 2007 season, so it would make sense to look at 4th and 1 stats since then. After you get that number, (say, 65%), you have to then adjust it to your opponent and situation.
We are having a ton of success running and passing the ball and Atlanta's interior defense isn't very good and hasn't been able to stop us yet. That would increase the odds of use making the first down, say from 65% to 75%. It's not an exact since, but it's the best method to go by.

So, we would calculate we have a 75% chance of converting and a 25% chance of failing to convert.

We might also want to look at what Atlanta averages on punt returns and the likely hood of them returning a punt for a TD. We could possibly get that statistic by looking at the how often a team, on average, in the NFL returns a punt for a TD and then adjust it to account for the ability of Atlanta specifically.

In poker:
We raise allin and both blinds fold: You estimate this based on how your opponent plays. If you, by observation, calculate that they are tight and will only call with the top 20% of their range (hands they could have), you calculate that they will fold 80% of the time. Together, that means that that both will fold 64% of the time.
We blind steal allin and 1 blind calls: 1 blind will call 16% of the time
We blind steal allin and both blinds call: Both blinds will call 4% of the time

Now we have to add in the reward/loss of each scenario and figure out how to calculate that.

In Football:
We convert: Given the 75% success rate, we need to figure out how often they will score points. The best way I can figure this is to look at the offense from 2007-present. I don't have the numbers on me, but lets say they averaged just over 3.5 points per drive in 2007 and 2.5 points per drive in 2008. By averages, you would think that 3 points per drive would make at least a good educated estimate, but given the game conditions (8 drives, 6 successful for 26 points, or 3.25 points per drive, while only 1 for 4 RZ efficiency) adjusting it to 3.25 points per drive would be reasonable.

We fail to convert: Atlanta was 1 for 2 (efficiency) in the RZ for 10 points, thus 5 points seems reasonable. The next (or previous) step would, again, be too look at their offense for the last couple years (or compare it to the league average, etc) and get a good estimate for RZ production and adjust it.

The final step would be to factor the reward/loss with the likelyhood of the events happening

In Football:
75% of the time we convert the 4th down and average 3.25 points on the drive or .75*3.25 = 2.44
25% of the time we fail and the Falcons average 5 points in the RZ or .25*5 = 1.25.
Subtract that from the success scenario and you get +1.19. That would be the expect value of making such decision. After this, then you have to compare that to the effects making/not making this play has on the game.

For instance, if we punt, what is the likely hood that they return the punt to essentially where it was punt from? What is the likely hood that they return the punt for a TD? What is the likely hood that they score on a drive with worse field position vs good field position (RZ)?

If we get the first down, what does scoring and/or killing more clock time mean for the game?

In poker:
64% of the time both blinds fold, we win 1.5 big blinds, or .64*1.5 = 0.96 big blinds
16% of the time the small blind will call. We will win 33% of the time they call and lose 67% of the time. So, (.16*((.33*10BB) - (.67*10BB)) = -.54
16% of the time the big blind will call it will cost us -.54 big blinds
4% of the time both blinds call it will cost us (.04*(.26*20BB)-(.74*10BB)) = -.09
Your equity is .96 -.54 -.09, or .33, thus, this play will net +.33 Big blinds.

The next step in poker is looking at the tournament equity. That is, your chips aren't money, and chips decline in value the more you have. You calculate your tournament equity using another equation using your chip equity and your stack sizes. Like in football, just calculation your equity or tournament equity doesn't account for everything. You might decide to pass up slight +EV situations if you think you don't need to take a big gamble if your opponents are really weak. Table dynamics also play a factor and so forth.

However, equity calculations are the most important factor in making your decision and can account for many factors. Football isn't any different.
 
What emoney is saying (I think/hope) with his poker analogy, is that sometimes weird stupid ass plays win, even if the percentages aren't with you.

An example of what he's talking about, is going all in with a pair of fives early on in a tournament match.

Of course it's not the best mathematical play, but you could win based on a hunch or a feeling.

That is basically what Belichick did yesterday. There is no payoff-tree, or stat, or math that can justify trying to gain a 1st down on your own 25, in exchange for possibly giving up a sure FG or possibly TD.

But, it still works sometimes, and it did for Belichick yesterday.

So you are saying we are trying to pull "stuff" out of our ass for a payoff, while ignoring the loss? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you ignore the future payoff, you should also ignore the future loss. If you want to ignore that converting the 4th down will lead to points on average, then you also MUST have to ignore that turning the ball over in the red zone will on average surrender points. Your "point" ignores the payoff (ie, keeping the drive going) while take account of the possible loss (ie, the opposing team scoring with field position). Your point SHOULD be, "We either get a 1st down deep in our territory or we give the other team great field position. PERIOD". If anyone's argument is flawed, it is yours.

You realize the second you say "in exchange for possibly giving up points" you are actually ESTIMATING THE FUTURE CHAIN OF EVENTS! You are doing EXACTLY what you say we are failing to attempt to do. :eek: Take a good step back off of your high perch and look at what you are saying.
 
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Smart play....... we did not deserve a 3 and out so quickly. We gambled and came out on top. This drive kept our defense on the sidelines. No qualms from me.

Bellichick BALLS is the term
 
You are basing your 3.25 on how many possessions?
You are basing your 5 points on two possessions. This is totally inadequate.
Also you fail to realise that there are five possible score outcomes from a turnover which are 3, 6, 7 and 8. While 5 is an average its not workable in this situation as you are calculating one drive and the only possible results from a turnover are 3, 6, 7 or 8.

If this calculation was usable week after week and this situation came up in every game then it is workable to guarantee a good win ratio, but in football its about winning every game. Not just going over .500 for the season.
 
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