Elephant in the Room -- Tom Brady's Mental block in big games

[GrassyKneel]

First, there is no double standard. Well, that's not actually true, as some degree of double standard tends to creep in when comparing favorites to non-favorites. However, you choose to ignore or dismiss the arguments made that separate the two and insulate most of the discussion from the argument of "double standard". That's not the same thing.

Second, I assume you're joking by trying to bring in the "haterade" thread, given its title.

Third, Manning is a choking dog. It is what it is. He's gone pick-6 against the Saints, and his pick against the Broncos might just as well have been another pick 6. I could point to other games, but those are recent and funny.

The problem here is that you're taking a point that has a very small grain of something approaching truth and trying to pretend that it's a planet-sized and powerful argument. It's not.

2005: A 10-6 team is beaten by a 13-3 team. Brady throws a bonehead pass which results in a blown call by the officials and the awarding of a TD to the Broncos.
2006: Brady gets team to huge lead. The sick and injured defense could not hold off the Colts and the poor officiating (Face guarding?)

2007: Brady's ankle kept him immobile and allowed the Giants to tee off on him. Nonetheless, he got the team the lead at the end of the game

2008: No Brady, no playoffs

2009: Brady, still working his way back from injury, faces the Ravens without the newly lost Welker, leaving only Moss as an offensive weapon worth a damn. Sam Aiken was the WR3, for crying out loud.

2010: Brady screws the pooch on a simple screen. dumbass play, legit choke claim

2011: Brady had been injured for a good part of the season. In the SB, he sets a record for most completions in a row. He's then hit and clearly reinjured. Nonetheless, he still leads the team to the lead late in the 4th

2012: You haven't called it a choke, the second INT was obviously in a desperation type of situation, and the team was down 15. One can certainly wonder about his clock management prior to the half.

That's 2 unexcused chokes and one game where he wasn't choking but certainly wasn't getting it done at a high enough level. Now, could you show me the comparables for Peyton? Perhaps you could start with the season where he was shut out...

You really don't see it and it's amazing. Reread your post and imagine it was a Colts fan trying to justify all the reasons Manning lost in the playoffs.

2 times blaming referees, 4 times blaming injury, and once writing off a pick for being in a "desperation" type situation. How would you react to these justifications coming from a Manning supporter?

 

[ausbacker]

This offseason has been full of winning threads.

 

[Ring 6]

And yet in his first Super Bowl run he threw 1 TD and 1 pick in 3 games, had a 77.3 rating overall, and hoisted the Lombardi essentially due to the defensive prowess of the team. Yet no one ever hesitates to credit him with that win when touting him as the GOAT.

See how it works both ways?

Quarterbacks are like goalies. They quite often get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when the team loses. Except here, when the team loses, there are a huge number of posters who for one reason or another are incapable of acknowledging Brady's share of the blame at all.

You must either be about 14, or you didn't start watching football until after 2001 if you are trying to diminish Tom Bradys contributions to winning that title.

Of course nice job trying to make a stat argument out of 3 games, one where he playing in a blizzard and another when he was injured in the first half.

 

[Deus Irae]

You really don't see it and it's amazing. Reread your post and imagine it was a Colts fan trying to justify all the reasons Manning lost in the playoffs.

2 times blaming referees, 4 times blaming injury, and once writing off a pick for being in a "desperation" type situation. How would you react to these justifications coming from a Manning supporter?

I "see" it fine. I see, for example, that you haven't bothered actually responding to the substance of my post.

Kindly show, for example, the Colts playoff losses where Manning was completely hobbled or injured in-game.

Then, perhaps, you could show the games where his #1 or #2 receivers were lost in the game prior to the loss.

Then you could show me how the Brady toss at the end of the Ravens game is something to be held against him given the circumstances at the time.

This would be about something called "context". Let's just start with that, instead of you merely trolling.

 

[GrassyKneel]

You must either be about 14, or you didn't start watching football until after 2001 if you are trying to diminish Tom Bradys contributions to winning that title.

Of course nice job trying to make a stat argument out of 3 games, one where he playing in a blizzard and another when he was injured in the first half.

So you're trying to tell me that the 2001 New England Patriots weren't a defense first team that chugged through the playoffs on QB game management and exceptional defensive play, including holding the "greatest show on turf" to 17 points?

It's not about a stats argument. We all saw that Super Bowl. We all know how it happened. Yes, Brady played admirably for being in the situation he was in, but that Super Bowl was won primarily by defense and there really isn't any arguing that.

 

[Deus Irae]

So you're trying to tell me that the 2001 New England Patriots weren't a defense first team that chugged through the playoffs on QB game management and exceptional defensive play, including holding the "greatest show on turf" to 17 points?

It's not about a stats argument. We all saw that Super Bowl. We all know how it happened. Yes, Brady played admirably for being in the situation he was in, but that Super Bowl was won primarily by defense and there really isn't any arguing that.

2001 was won by Brady's final drive, as was 2003. How many final drives to win a Super Bowl does Peyton have?

 

[GrassyKneel]

I "see" it fine. I see, for example, that you haven't bothered actually responding to the substance of my post.

Kindly show, for example, the Colts playoff losses where Manning was completely hobbled or injured in-game.

Then, perhaps, you could show the games where his #1 or #2 receivers were lost in the game prior to the loss.

Then you could show me how the Brady toss at the end of the Ravens game is something to be held against him given the circumstances at the time.

This would be about something called "context". Let's just start with that, instead of you merely trolling.

And now it's "trolling" because you don't like it.

Face it bucko, when Manning has mediocre games in the playoffs, anything Colts fans said to try and justify it were excuses and it was all on his shoulders. When Brady has mediocre games in the playoffs, anything said to justify it are true and righteous reasons! Anyone who dares to question otherwise, including your fellow fans, are crazy or wrong.

If you leave the bubble of this forum and look in from the outside, you'll realize that only here does it work that way. Out there, Brady is judged just like everyone else, and people can call a spade a spade when he doesn't come out to play. But I'm sure you'll find some way to rationalize that away too. Maybe even one to add to the "conspiracy theory" thread!!!

 

[GrassyKneel]

2001 was won by Brady's final drive. How many final drives to win a Super Bowl does Peyton have?

So wait, 2001 was won by Brady's final drive. NOT by Adam's final kick. NOT by the two picks on Warner. NOT by the defense playing lights out and holding one of the greatest offenses in history to 17 points. It was BRADY. BRADY'S FINAL DRIVE!

Get real. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Edit: and to answer your question, Manning has one Super Bowl, in which the points that ended up winning the game came off of an offensive drive. So he has one Super Bowl which, by your logic, was won on his game winning drive.

 

[Tunescribe]

Tunescribe,

I'm sorry for whatever miseries you're going through in your life that make you have to lash out, repeatedly, at one stranger after another. I hope things improve for you.

One thought: It's early in the calendar year. Your insurance would probably cover some psychiatrist visits, even if you used up your quota last year.

Everybody else (including those who agree with Tunescribe on football matters),

There's no call for extremism here on either side. Brady made good plays in the Ravens game and he made bad plays. Why did he make bad plays? Some combination of him and his coaching and the Ravens' play and the Ravens' coaching and the weather and the play of his teammates (which in turn was influenced by all the same factors).

Obviously, it's a hope of any defense to put the QB into unexpected or otherwise difficult situations, and then hope he fails to perform. Well, the Ravens succeeded at that. The top-down view is that they held the Pats to 13 points. The bottom-up view is Brady did visibly badly on a number of plays.

Now, in the Pats' defense on the 13 points, the refs were calling things in a way that would lead to a lower-scoring game, and there was wind, and the first INT was very (un)lucky. Maybe the Ravens' team (Boldin in particular) was just better-built for the circumstances. But in fact Flacco was complete passes to a covered Boldin while Brady was missing to an open Hernandez. So yeah, this was a pretty shaky performance by Brady.

And overall, Brady's laid a few eggs in the second halves of big games.

Forced sarcasm does not become you, Fencer. But it doesn't surprise me you're as hapless at trying to be cleverly humorous as you are at understanding football. Nor does it surprise me that you showed up in this sorry thread, like a fly drawn to shyte.

Tom Brady is many things including imperfect. But he sure as hell is no "choker," as you have claimed. Any further attempts by you to "explain" or otherwise soft-pedal things are just as fatally flawed as when you inadvisedly broached that pathetic brain fart to begin with.

 

[Deus Irae]

And now it's "trolling" because you don't like it.

No, it's trolling because it's the deliberate incitement of the site's posters without any real willingness to discuss the issue.

Face it bucko, when Manning has mediocre games in the playoffs, anything Colts fans said to try and justify it were excuses and it was all on his shoulders. When Brady has mediocre games in the playoffs, anything said to justify it are true and righteous reasons! Anyone who dares to question otherwise, including your fellow fans, are crazy or wrong.

Injuries matter. I'm sorry, but they do. For example, and taking a non-Patriots player, T.O.'s performance in the 2004 SB was amazing precisely because he was coming back from injury. Favre's performance in 2009, before he threw the last pick, was amazing precisely because he'd taken such a beating and gotten injured. Bird's miracle game when he was practically crippled because of back pain was amazing because he was practically crippled because of back pain.

Now, about those Manning injuries... found any significant ones yet?

If you leave the bubble of this forum and look in from the outside, you'll realize that only here does it work that way. Out there, Brady is judged just like everyone else, and people can call a spade a spade when he doesn't come out to play. But I'm sure you'll find some way to rationalize that away too. Maybe even one to add to the "conspiracy theory" thread!!!

I leave this forum all the time. It works "that way" everywhere. Your posts would be ridiculous in any forum. They'd find sympathetic audiences because of anti-Patriots sympathies.

 

[GrassyKneel]

I leave this forum all the time. It works "that way" everywhere. Your posts would be ridiculous in any forum. They'd find sympathetic audiences because of anti-Patriots sympathies.

You're like the gift that keeps on giving. I called that you'd find someway to rationalize away why fans outside of this board see things for what you are, and right on queue!!!

 

[Deus Irae]

So wait, 2001 was won by Brady's final drive. NOT by Adam's final kick. NOT by the two picks on Warner. NOT by the defense playing lights out and holding one of the greatest offenses in history to 17 points. It was BRADY. BRADY'S FINAL DRIVE!

Get real. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

So you were talking out your ass, which is what I expected.

Edit: and to answer your question, Manning has one Super Bowl, in which the points that ended up winning the game came off of an offensive drive. So he has one Super Bowl which, by your logic, was won on his game winning drive.

Thanks for proving my point about you doing nothing but trolling. I had faith that you would. The correct answer to my question, of course, is zero.

BTW, Manning is 2-5 since his SB win, so even if we were pimping Brady for 8-7, it STILL wouldn't be a double standard, given the remarkable differences in their success levels even post SB wins.

 

[Deus Irae]

You're like the gift that keeps on giving. I called that you'd find someway to rationalize away why fans outside of this board see things for what you are, and right on queue!!!

Now you're confusing rationalization with explanation. Even on those sites, the posters admit that it's about anti-Brady/anti-Patriots bias.


Trolls gonna troll, though, right?

 

[Joker]

Someday Brady and Belichick will be gone. The team will suck for a few years as it rebuilds from losing two of its most important pieces. Save your complaining for then. Just enjoy what we have now and be thankful you're not a fan of the Raiders or Jets, etc. There is no double standard here...just a single standard. We'll defend it to the death.

Here, have a beer with me and be happy you're a Pats fan.

I do not believe this to be a Pats fan but a butt hurt Peytie rumpswab Indy leftover fan waging a DeBergerac windmill hunt....

 

[Tunescribe]

You're like the gift that keeps on giving. I called that you'd find someway to rationalize away why fans outside of this board see things for what you are, and right on queue!!!

Fans outside of this board are a low priority around here, for reasons that should be obvious. And the word is "cue." :ugh:

 

[Deus Irae]

Fact: Tom Brady has been to 10 postseasons
Fact: Tom Brady has been to the Super Bowl 5 times
Fact: Tom Brady is 9-0 in seasons where he won the Super Bowl
Fact: Tom Brady is 8-7 in seasons where he hasn't won the Super Bowl

Fact: Peyton Manning has been to 12 postseasons
Fact: Peyton Manning is 9-11 in the postseason, even when including his Super Bowl winning season
Fact: Peyton Manning is 5-11 in seasons where he hasn't won the Super Bowl


Fact: Tom Brady has as many wins in postseasons where he hasn't won the Super Bowl as Peyton Manning has one-and-done seasons
Fact: Despite having played in 2 fewer postseasons, Tom Brady has been to the Super Bowl more often than Peyton Manning has won a game in the postseason
Fact: Brady, in the so-called "down seasons", post-2004, still has gotten to 4 AFCCGs and 2 Super Bowls

There's a reason for that so-called "double standard". The reason is that Brady is the all-time winningest QB in the playoffs, while Manning is the master of the one-and-done.

 

[Deus Irae]

Back to the O.P., if I could. I'm still hoping that someone could explain where the "choke" was for Brady in the Ravens game.

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

You must either be about 14, or you didn't start watching football until after 2001 if you are trying to diminish Tom Bradys contributions to winning that title.

Of course nice job trying to make a stat argument out of 3 games, one where he playing in a blizzard and another when he was injured in the first half.

So you're trying to tell me that the 2001 New England Patriots weren't a defense first team that chugged through the playoffs on QB game management and exceptional defensive play, including holding the "greatest show on turf" to 17 points?

It's not about a stats argument. We all saw that Super Bowl. We all know how it happened. Yes, Brady played admirably for being in the situation he was in, but that Super Bowl was won primarily by defense and there really isn't any arguing that.

Thanks for showing you weren't paying attention to 2001. Your response couldn't have been more unaware


Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[pherein]

Stroke at the keyboard? Seriously, this doesn't make any sense. I have no opinion of Tom Brady as a person. I don't know Tom Brady as a person, and neither do you. His views and morals? WTF?

Tom Brady is a football player. I judge him by his football play. I don't know him. I'm not his friend. I don't know his inner thoughts and feelings, nor do I know his views and morals. No one here does.

Seriously man, that's gotta be one of the most nonsensical and weird posts I've ever seen on here.

From what your saying you dont know much of anything, but from my post I certainly got my thoughts across, because you expressed yours, get it.

All that you care about is what Brady does for you today, because your a bandwagon fan. Egotistic, wanting, win, win, and win.

everyone here cares about his class, morals, and how he represents the team.

same as we care about Brees, and what he does.

Your just a sniveling dont give a ****, who knows nothing of what Brady has accomplished , and wants another ring so you can feel good about your pathetic life.

Sorry Brady has done enough for NE. If he does nothing ever again, he'd be perfect.
But he wont, and thats Brady. He'll bust his ass next year to win you games. Even ungrateful fans like you bandwagon.

ok that felt good to say, and a little dirty,lol

 

[TriplecHamp]

It's both sad and comical how blatant a double standard there is on this board when it comes to the play of Tom Brady.

When Peyton Manning loses in the playoffs, he choked. When Peyton Manning throws interceptions in the playoffs, it's because he's not clutch enough for the big games. When Peyton Manning puts up bad stats or QB ratings in the playoffs (even when the result is a W), it's all evidence of how he's incapable of post season play. When Colts fans used to chalk it up to drops, receivers running the wrong route, etc., it was always dismissed as excuses and whining.

When Tom Brady loses in the playoffs, it's everyone's fault but his. When Tom Brady throws interceptions in the playoffs, people say things like 'well the interceptions don't really count because xyz'. When Tom Brady puts up bad stats or QB ratings in the playoffs, stats don't tell the story. When anyone points to any of these things, people blame it on drops, receivers running the wrong route, etc. and it's everyone's fault but Brady's.

For instance:

Peyton Manning v. Ravens: 28-43, 290 yards, 3 TD, 2 INT, 88.3 rating. Put his team in a position where they had something like a 98% chance of winning with 30 seconds left, only to be shocked by the 'Flacco Fling' and a safety who appeared to have had a stroke on the interception attempt.

Yet there was a 'hatorade' thread in which everyone relished in another one and done choke for Manning.

Tom Brady v. Ravens: 29-54, 320 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 62.3 rating. Brady's picks included an endzone interception on a drive that would otherwise have resulted in at least 3 points. He was unable to lead a drive resulting in the score a single point in the second half of the game.

Yet this is not seen as a "choke", in fact many fans here, if not most, defend Brady's play as just fine, or even good, shifting blame away from him, saying he can't do it all himself, and blaming anyone else they can.

Don't get me wrong, this is a Pats forum, and so it's natural for there to be a certain distaste for Peyton Manning, but it's comical to see how blindly hypocritical so many fans here are. So eager and willing to label Manning a choker and dump the blame for essentially all of his playoff losses squarely on his shoulders, yet completely incapable of looking at the play of their own quarterback objectively enough to realize that since 2005, Brady hasn't been any better.

Lets just take a look at their most recent playoff games. Im not going to blame manning for the pick 6 he threw against the Ravens. He did however turn the ball over late in the game by not being careful in the pocket as it collapsed (something you don't see Brady do) and in Overtime he made one of the most egregious errors a QB can make something so Mark Sancehez-esque that it can only be labeled as a choke. Peyton Manning Rolls out of the pocket to his right and then throws back into coverage across his body for an interception. Peyton Manning 98/100 times never throws that ball but in the post season, in overtime after his defense blew the lead he tried to do to much and ended up costing his team the game.


There is no isntance in this most recent game that you can point to and say this is an example of TFB doing something out of the ordinary that cost his team the game. Bringing up numbers is certainly the most viable option to prove a point but when you add no context to them and take them at face value you're "doing it wrong". Brady's 1st interception was a ball batted at the LOS a mile into the air and landed into the waiting arms of Dannel Ellerbe. The 2nd was a force down multiple scores with time running down. I don't see whats so hard to understand. Lol @ 3 points in that situation. Yeah lets make a 28-13 game into a 28-16 game with about 1:30 left. The only situation I would say equates to choking is the gaff at the end of the first half where Brady didn't call TO after sliding.