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Elephant in the Room -- Tom Brady's Mental block in big games


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Brady hasn't changed, the 2 teams that have this teams # is Baltimore and the giants. They always have. Brady and the team just couldn't get it done. Missed opportunities early set the game. Imagine if we would of been our usual selves and scoring in the red zone almost every time? Wouldn't have been so lopsided. I truly see a 2001-2004 Super Bowl on the verge of returning for us. Young D now getting settled, O is getting ready to be perfect. This team is ready to be dominant. Brady has been reliable to win and help us. But not everyone can be as flawless as he has been. He will have a bad game once in awhile. Get ready pats nation, the best has yet to come.........


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The Patriots offense really struggled in the red zone. Many times they had the ball inside the Ravens' 25 and came up with just one touchdown.
 
You lost me when you started to compare the NFL's "winningest" QB of all time in the playoffs vs the guy who holds the title of NFL's most games lost ever in the playoffs.

Brady---won 17 playoff games, more than any other QB in NFL history. He has also taken his team to at least the AFCCG or better in 7 of his 12 full seasons, for an almost 2/3rds rate of making it every single season.

On top of that he is 5-2 in those AFC championship games, and has 5 SB appearances in 12 yrs.

vs.

Manning---no one has lost more times in the NFL playoffs at 12 losses. On top of that Mr.Manning has gone "one and done" in EIGHT of 12 appearances all time.

He also has never won a playoff game in temperatures below 60 degrees.


Other than that, I guess you have a point.

Yet Brady's three Super Bowls, which are 8, 10, and 11 years in the past respectively, have no bearing on how he played this year, or last year, or the year before, etc.

All you've done in further illustrated my point. The only way you, as a fan base, can continue to pump up Brady as a clutch playoff QB is to point to results that at this point are near ancient.

No one in this thread is talking about Brady's performance in 2001, 2002, or 2004. So why bother referencing it?

Nothing I said in my post isn't true. It's a fact. Peyton Manning put up a better performance against the Ravens this year than Brady, and had his team with the win with 30 seconds left in regulation, yet this board had no problem calling it a choke, putting the loss on his shoulders, and relishing in it.
Brady had worse individual stats, less overall offensive points, and went an entire half without being able to lead a scoring drive, also resulting in a loss, where his team didn't have a sniff of the W for the majority of the second half, and yet he's let off the hook.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the arguments against Manning being clutch aren't true. They are. He isn't clutch in the playoffs. That's a fact.

But neither is Brady since 2005. Since Brady won his last Super Bowl, he's consistently been no better than Manning, and the offense has consistently struggled to score points in big games, and he's consistently put up mediocre to weak numbers in the games that the Pats have seen themselves eliminated in.

Tom Brady 2001 - 2004: Ultimate clutch. Best ever. GOAT, I believe is the term you guys like.
Tom Brady 2005 - Present: Surprisingly mediocre when his team needed him the most in the playoffs.
Tom Brady 2005 - Present:
 
Playoff record
Peyton Manning 9-11
Tom Brady 17-7

SB wins
Peyton Manning 1
Tom Brady 3

Seasons with:
1 playoff win Manning 4
A SB berth Brady 5

If you can seriously think the difference between these 2 QBs is a 'double standard' you should give up watching, and particularly posting on message boards, esp this one, about football.


You are in the middle of a thread with Pats fans calling Brady a choker.
Please point to any example of any of the things you are saying here.


What does enjoying a rival losing have to do with your point?
And who threw the game clinching Int?


Because it is totally ignorant to describe this as Brady choking unless you bury your head in a stat sheet and ignore what happens on the field.



Highest winning % in NFL history and the most playoff wins ever,
vs. the most playoff losses, and most one and dones ever.
You be the judge.

Im a fan of football, and fans. Ne has the best fans, and anyone putting down Brady is pretty crazy from a fan looking at QB's objectively. Totally agree with you AndyJohnson.

Look, we love Brees, and hes a good guy, but he will never do what Brady has done. Brady has been amazing and continues to be. You just cant expect to win so much even with Brady.

Bradys not erognance , but thats erognance to expect that. We have teams that want the SB to you know.
Like GB with good fans, or NO. Theres a lot of good fans that are desuring of a SB , like KC. Just no one in the SB.
 
Ok, I admit that I'm coming to this thread late, but Brady didn't fumble, and the tipped ball was clearly not a 'choke'. His completion percentage was fine, his yard totals were adequate and he wasn't the one dropping passes.

Given that, could someone please show me where he supposedly choked, as opposed to just not having a great game and making a mistake here and there? I don't recall a Peyton Manning "serve it right up at crunch time" INT happening, for example.
 
Ok, I admit that I'm coming to this thread late, but Brady didn't fumble, and the tipped ball was clearly not a 'choke'. His completion percentage was fine, his yard totals were adequate and he wasn't the one dropping passes.

Given that, could someone please show me where he supposedly choked, as opposed to just not having a great game and making a mistake here and there? I don't recall a Peyton Manning "serve it right up at crunch time" INT happening, for example.

Consider yourself lucky joining this nonsense late. The OP and a few others would be well served to start with "Football for Dummies" and work up from there.
 
Playoff record
Peyton Manning 9-11
Tom Brady 17-7

SB wins
Peyton Manning 1
Tom Brady 3

Seasons with:
1 playoff win Manning 4
A SB berth Brady 5

Brady's first 10 starts, 10-0. Brady's 14 starts since, 7-7.

I'll say it again, I'm not commenting on career vs career. And I'm certainly not saying Manning is a clutch QB.

What I am saying is that since Brady won his first three Super Bowls, going 10-0 in the process, he's actually been relatively mediocre since. Just look at the numbers. .500 in the playoffs overall, with a string of low scoring, poor QB rating games in which the Pats were eliminated.


If you can seriously think the difference between these 2 QBs is a 'double standard' you should give up watching, and particularly posting on message boards, esp this one, about football.

If you want to talk careers and include games that happened a decade ago, then you're absolutely right. If you want to talk on a game by game basis, as they're played today, this year, last year, etc., then it absolutely is a double standard, and it's really pretty hard to argue otherwise.

You are in the middle of a thread with Pats fans calling Brady a choker.
Please point to any example of any of the things you are saying here.

I'm in a thread where one guy brought up the topic and the majority of posters are telling him he's wrong or crazy. Hell, there's even some guy who's a Saints fan over here, what's the term you guys love, 'ballwishing', Brady. To the fans on here who ARE able to objectively look at Brady's play and place his share of the blame where it's due, good for them. From reading the threads since the Baltimore loss though, they're definitely in the minority though.

What does enjoying a rival losing have to do with your point?
And who threw the game clinching Int?

Hey no arguments from me on that INT. That was a dumb decision, and I knew it was coming. I think we all probably did. But are you really going to tell me Brady's two INTs didn't have a significant outcome on the Baltimore game? You might even say they were one of the key factors in the offense putting up a mere 13 points and failing to score any in the second half. But they don't count right?


Highest winning % in NFL history and the most playoff wins ever,
vs. the most playoff losses, and most one and dones ever.
You be the judge.

7-7 since 2005. Consistently mediocre in games his team was eliminated in, while beating up on Tebow, Jacksonville, etc.

Face the facts folks, Tom Brady's play is not beyond criticism because he went 10-0 in his first 10 starts a decade ago. Since then, he's 7-7, .500 in the playoffs.
 
Hey no arguments from me on that INT. That was a dumb decision, and I knew it was coming. I think we all probably did. But are you really going to tell me Brady's two INTs didn't have a significant outcome on the Baltimore game? You might even say they were one of the key factors in the offense putting up a mere 13 points and failing to score any in the second half. But they don't count right?


But throwing a pick isn't necessarily choking, particularly when you're looking at a ball tipped at the line, a receiver falling down, a receiver tipping the ball to the defender, etc...., and failed conversions in the red zone were certainly far more devastating to the team than the second pick. So, again, where was the choke?

Are you arguing that this particular tipped pass was the choke?
 
Brady---won 17 playoff games, more than any other QB in NFL history. He has also taken his team to at least the AFCCG or better in 7 of his 12 full seasons, for an almost 2/3rds rate of making it every single season.

On top of that he is 5-2 in those AFC championship games, and has 5 SB appearances in 12 yrs.[/QUOTE]

2008 doesn't count. It's 7 of 11. :)
 
Brady's first 10 starts, 10-0. Brady's 14 starts since, 7-7.

.

Ok , let them tear you apart. I just want to know one question. You like Brady as a person ?
support his views and morals? That he is trying his best. Even if he loses you prepared to be ok with that?
Because of the man that is playing for you and trying his best is not good enough for you, then your not good enouph for yourself.
 
But throwing a pick isn't necessarily choking, particularly when you're looking at a ball tipped at the line, a receiver falling down, a receiver tipping the ball to the defender, etc...., and failed conversions in the red zone were certainly far more devastating to the team than the second pick. So, again, where was the choke?

Are you arguing that this particular tipped pass was the choke?

Certainly not. Actually, I'm not arguing that Brady choked at all. I'm merely commenting on the double standard by which he's measured here.

For instance, Manning's first pick in the Baltimore @ Den game was a perfect pass to Decker, which due to what some would call uncalled PI and some would not, bounced off Decker's hands/chest straight up into the air resulting in a pick 6.

Go to the 'hatorade' thread and see how many posters here were willing to call a spade a spade and write that one off as sheer bad luck. Nope. It was on Manning. "ANOTHER PICK IN THE PLAYOFFS! WOOHOO! THERE HE GOES AGAIN!"

Yet Brady's tipped pass, which one could argue was tipped at the line and therefore never even got close to its intended target, is not judged the same way.

My opinion: Football is a team sport, and no one guy can do it by themselves. Manning put his team in a position to win the game where only a miracle could take it away and that miracle floated over Rahim Moore's head. No doubt the pick in OT was a terrible decision, and he gets his share of the blame for it, but on this forum, that share of the blame is basically 100%.

Brady had a game against Baltimore that was mediocre at best, a terrible rating, more picks than TDs, 13 points total and none in the second half. Is it his fault they lost? No, because the guys around him weren't able to step up their own games to help out and take up the slack, which is what a TEAM has to do to win. But that doesn't absolve him of his share of the blame, which many here are trying to do.

It IS a double standard, and I'm not really sure how anyone can a) not see it, or b) see it and still argue against it.
 
Ok , let them tear you apart. I just want to know one guestion. You like Brady as a person ?
support his views and morals? That he is trying his best. Even if he loses you prepared to be ok with that?
Because of the man that is playing for you and trying his best.

Stroke at the keyboard? Seriously, this doesn't make any sense. I have no opinion of Tom Brady as a person. I don't know Tom Brady as a person, and neither do you. His views and morals? WTF?

Tom Brady is a football player. I judge him by his football play. I don't know him. I'm not his friend. I don't know his inner thoughts and feelings, nor do I know his views and morals. No one here does.

Seriously man, that's gotta be one of the most nonsensical and weird posts I've ever seen on here.
 
...7-7 since 2005. Consistently mediocre in games his team was eliminated in, while beating up on Tebow, Jacksonville, etc.

Face the facts folks, Tom Brady's play is not beyond criticism because he went 10-0 in his first 10 starts a decade ago. Since then, he's 7-7, .500 in the playoffs.

This argument of yours is absolutely useless without context.
 
Brady's first 10 starts, 10-0. Brady's 14 starts since, 7-7.

I'll say it again, I'm not commenting on career vs career. And I'm certainly not saying Manning is a clutch QB.

What I am saying is that since Brady won his first three Super Bowls, going 10-0 in the process, he's actually been relatively mediocre since. Just look at the numbers. .500 in the playoffs overall, with a string of low scoring, poor QB rating games in which the Pats were eliminated.




If you want to talk careers and include games that happened a decade ago, then you're absolutely right. If you want to talk on a game by game basis, as they're played today, this year, last year, etc., then it absolutely is a double standard, and it's really pretty hard to argue otherwise.



I'm in a thread where one guy brought up the topic and the majority of posters are telling him he's wrong or crazy. Hell, there's even some guy who's a Saints fan over here, what's the term you guys love, 'ballwishing', Brady. To the fans on here who ARE able to objectively look at Brady's play and place his share of the blame where it's due, good for them. From reading the threads since the Baltimore loss though, they're definitely in the minority though.



Hey no arguments from me on that INT. That was a dumb decision, and I knew it was coming. I think we all probably did. But are you really going to tell me Brady's two INTs didn't have a significant outcome on the Baltimore game? You might even say they were one of the key factors in the offense putting up a mere 13 points and failing to score any in the second half. But they don't count right?




7-7 since 2005. Consistently mediocre in games his team was eliminated in, while beating up on Tebow, Jacksonville, etc.

Face the facts folks, Tom Brady's play is not beyond criticism because he went 10-0 in his first 10 starts a decade ago. Since then, he's 7-7, .500 in the playoffs.

"He" went 10-0 and "he" is 7-7? It's misleadingly myopic to evaluate things this way. Certainly, Brady's play should never be beyond criticism, yet his performances in the 7-7 stretch can hardly be deemed "choking." If you compare and contrast the Patriots' overall style of TEAM play (and various emphases) pre- and post-2007, you'll note some interesting discrepancies. Considered in a vacuum, none of Brady's post-2007 efforts (except possibly for 2010 vs. Baltimore) could be considered attributable for defeat.
 
"He" went 10-0 and "he" is 7-7? It's misleadingly myopic to evaluate things this way. Certainly, Brady's play should never be beyond criticism, yet his performances in the 7-7 stretch can hardly be deemed "choking." If you compare and contrast the Patriots' overall style of TEAM play (and various emphases) pre- and post-2007, you'll note some interesting discrepancies. Considered in a vacuum, none of Brady's efforts (except possibly for 2010 vs. Baltimore) could be considered attributable for defeat.

And yet in his first Super Bowl run he threw 1 TD and 1 pick in 3 games, had a 77.3 rating overall, and hoisted the Lombardi essentially due to the defensive prowess of the team. Yet no one ever hesitates to credit him with that win when touting him as the GOAT.

See how it works both ways?

Quarterbacks are like goalies. They quite often get too much credit when the team wins and too much blame when the team loses. Except here, when the team loses, there are a huge number of posters who for one reason or another are incapable of acknowledging Brady's share of the blame at all.
 
Tunescribe,

I'm sorry for whatever miseries you're going through in your life that make you have to lash out, repeatedly, at one stranger after another. I hope things improve for you.

One thought: It's early in the calendar year. Your insurance would probably cover some psychiatrist visits, even if you used up your quota last year.

Everybody else (including those who agree with Tunescribe on football matters),

There's no call for extremism here on either side. Brady made good plays in the Ravens game and he made bad plays. Why did he make bad plays? Some combination of him and his coaching and the Ravens' play and the Ravens' coaching and the weather and the play of his teammates (which in turn was influenced by all the same factors).

Obviously, it's a hope of any defense to put the QB into unexpected or otherwise difficult situations, and then hope he fails to perform. Well, the Ravens succeeded at that. The top-down view is that they held the Pats to 13 points. The bottom-up view is Brady did visibly badly on a number of plays.

Now, in the Pats' defense on the 13 points, the refs were calling things in a way that would lead to a lower-scoring game, and there was wind, and the first INT was very (un)lucky. Maybe the Ravens' team (Boldin in particular) was just better-built for the circumstances. But in fact Flacco was complete passes to a covered Boldin while Brady was missing to an open Hernandez. So yeah, this was a pretty shaky performance by Brady.

And overall, Brady's laid a few eggs in the second halves of big games.
 
Certainly not. Actually, I'm not arguing that Brady choked at all. I'm merely commenting on the double standard by which he's measured here.

For instance, Manning's first pick in the Baltimore @ Den game was a perfect pass to Decker, which due to what some would call uncalled PI and some would not, bounced off Decker's hands/chest straight up into the air resulting in a pick 6.

Go to the 'hatorade' thread and see how many posters here were willing to call a spade a spade and write that one off as sheer bad luck. Nope. It was on Manning. "ANOTHER PICK IN THE PLAYOFFS! WOOHOO! THERE HE GOES AGAIN!"

Yet Brady's tipped pass, which one could argue was tipped at the line and therefore never even got close to its intended target, is not judged the same way.

My opinion: Football is a team sport, and no one guy can do it by themselves. Manning put his team in a position to win the game where only a miracle could take it away and that miracle floated over Rahim Moore's head. No doubt the pick in OT was a terrible decision, and he gets his share of the blame for it, but on this forum, that share of the blame is basically 100%.

Brady had a game against Baltimore that was mediocre at best, a terrible rating, more picks than TDs, 13 points total and none in the second half. Is it his fault they lost? No, because the guys around him weren't able to step up their own games to help out and take up the slack, which is what a TEAM has to do to win.

It IS a double standard, and I'm not really sure how anyone can a) not see it, or b) see it and still argue against it.

First, there is no double standard. Well, that's not actually true, as some degree of double standard tends to creep in when comparing favorites to non-favorites. However, you choose to ignore or dismiss the arguments made that separate the two and insulate most of the discussion from the argument of "double standard". That's not the same thing.

Second, I assume you're joking by trying to bring in the "haterade" thread, given its title.

Third, Manning is a choking dog. It is what it is. He's gone pick-6 against the Saints, and his pick against the Broncos might just as well have been another pick 6. I could point to other games, but those are recent and funny.

Fourth, and I won't even get too far into it, Manning goes one-and-done like it's going out of style. For all the *****ing that you and others are doing about Brady, he usually wins a freaking game before losing.

The problem here is that you're taking a point that has a very small grain of something approaching truth and trying to pretend that it's a planet-sized and powerful argument. It's not.

2005: A 10-6 team is beaten by a 13-3 team. Brady throws a bonehead pass which results in a blown call by the officials and the awarding of a TD to the Broncos.
2006: Brady gets team to huge lead. The sick and injured defense could not hold off the Colts and the poor officiating (Face guarding?)

2007: Brady's ankle kept him immobile and allowed the Giants to tee off on him. Nonetheless, he got the team the lead at the end of the game

2008: No Brady, no playoffs

2009: Brady, still working his way back from injury, faces the Ravens without the newly lost Welker, leaving only Moss as an offensive weapon worth a damn. Sam Aiken was the WR3, for crying out loud.

2010: Brady screws the pooch on a simple screen. dumbass play, legit choke claim

2011: Brady had been injured for a good part of the season. In the SB, he sets a record for most completions in a row. He's then hit and clearly reinjured. Nonetheless, he still leads the team to the lead late in the 4th

2012: You haven't called it a choke, the second INT was obviously in a desperation type of situation, and the team was down 15. One can certainly wonder about his clock management prior to the half.

That's 2 unexcused chokes and one game where he wasn't choking but certainly wasn't getting it done at a high enough level. Now, could you show me the comparables for Peyton? Perhaps you could start with the season where he was shut out...
 
Tom Brady is a football player. I judge him by his football play. I don't know him. I'm not his friend. I don't know his inner thoughts and feelings, nor do I know his views and morals. No one here does.

Someday Brady and Belichick will be gone. The team will suck for a few years as it rebuilds from losing two of its most important pieces. Save your complaining for then. Just enjoy what we have now and be thankful you're not a fan of the Raiders or Jets, etc. There is no double standard here...just a single standard. We'll defend it to the death.

Here, have a beer with me and be happy you're a Pats fan.
 
Brady's first 10 starts, 10-0. Brady's 14 starts since, 7-7.
Yup, thats 17-7.

I'll say it again, I'm not commenting on career vs career. And I'm certainly not saying Manning is a clutch QB.
Then don't claim a double standard when you accept one has clearly outperformend the other.

What I am saying is that since Brady won his first three Super Bowls, going 10-0 in the process, he's actually been relatively mediocre since. Just look at the numbers. .500 in the playoffs overall, with a string of low scoring, poor QB rating games in which the Pats were eliminated.
Actually he is 8-7 since winning his 3rd SB. Manning has yet to play in his 3rd and is 9-11 which is worse than 8-7.
In other words Bradys record is still better even if you ignore his 9-0 record in winning 3 SBs.


If you want to talk careers and include games that happened a decade ago, then you're absolutely right. If you want to talk on a game by game basis, as they're played today, this year, last year, etc., then it absolutely is a double standard, and it's really pretty hard to argue otherwise.
That depends on what you mean by double standard. They are judged the same, which eliminates the real meaning of double standard. Brady is thoroughly better which you seem to think means a double standard when pointing out.
Adrain Peterson is better than Fred Jackson is not an example of a double standard.

I'm in a thread where one guy brought up the topic and the majority of posters are telling him he's wrong or crazy.
Only the sane and knowledgable ones.

Hell, there's even some guy who's a Saints fan over here, what's the term you guys love, 'ballwishing', Brady.
Brady has put him self in a position where getting that 4th SB win will make him the GOAT QB. I don't know how you can 'ballwash' that.

To the fans on here who ARE able to objectively look at Brady's play and place his share of the blame where it's due, good for them. From reading the threads since the Baltimore loss though, they're definitely in the minority though.
Brady has been roundly criticized on this board. His contribution in that game is what it is. No player in NFL history plays well enough to win every game by himself, but Brady played well enough to win this one if the rest of the team did too. He was 3 drops and holding call from over 70% 3rd down conversions, ran up 428 yards, and had his team move the ball basically at will and come up short on plays they executed all season.
This thread is about 'choking' some type of lack of interest and 'body language'. This thread deserves an abortion.


Hey no arguments from me on that INT. That was a dumb decision, and I knew it was coming. I think we all probably did. But are you really going to tell me Brady's two INTs didn't have a significant outcome on the Baltimore game?
The second one was meaningless. The first was a batted ball. Are you telling me he choked by having a ball batted by a DL straight to a defender?


You might even say they were one of the key factors in the offense putting up a mere 13 points and failing to score any in the second half. But they don't count right?
Who said they don't count? The 2nd was garbage time, the first is really hard to blame on the QB.

7-7 since 2005. Consistently mediocre in games his team was eliminated in, while beating up on Tebow, Jacksonville, etc.
8-7. 7 for 7 trips to the playoffs. The best record in the NFL and 7 division wins in those 7 years (discounting the one he didnt play injured) 4 trips to the AFCCG and 2 trips to the SB.
Are you telling me that is failure?

Face the facts folks, Tom Brady's play is not beyond criticism because he went 10-0 in his first 10 starts a decade ago. Since then, he's 7-7, .500 in the playoffs.
No one is beyond criticism, but not all deserve the same level.
You are crying that Patriot fans dare to not criticize Brady citing his abominable 8-7 playoff record since 2005, as if that is worse than Mannings 9-11 in his career.
 
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