Does Bill Parcells belong in the Hall of Fame?

[Seven Nation Army]

The question we are weighing here is not whether Parcells is a better coach than Belichick. It is whether Parcells belongs in the Hall of Fame. If we do a head-to-head comparison it is obvious that Belichick is on the same level as Lombardi, Noll, and Walsh, while Parcells is somewhat lower.

There is clearly a great amount of skepticism surrounding the disparity between Parcells' record with and without Belichick. It is staggering that in seven years without Little Bill the Tuna could not produce even a single playoff win or division title.

Despite my own misgivings on the topic, I don't think you can use Parcells record w/o Belichick as a weapon against him. There is no way to neatly divide credit for the success they achieved together and give it to Belichick. I honestly believe that without Belichick there would be no Parcells legacy at all, but I'm not going to hold it against him. It's just a black mark on his career, and one that will grow if the Patriots win another championship in the coming years.

I vote yes.

 

[363839]

The question we are weighing here is not whether Parcells is a better coach than Belichick. It is whether Parcells belongs in the Hall of Fame. If we do a head-to-head comparison it is obvious that Belichick is on the same level as Lombardi, Noll, and Walsh, while Parcells is somewhat lower.

There is clearly a great amount of skepticism surrounding the disparity between Parcells' record with and without Belichick. It is staggering that in seven years without Little Bill the Tuna could not produce even a single playoff win or division title.

Despite my own misgivings on the topic, I don't think you can use Parcells record w/o Belichick as a weapon against him. There is no way to neatly divide credit for the success they achieved together and give it to Belichick. I honestly believe that without Belichick there would be no Parcells legacy at all, but I'm not going to hold it against him. It's just a black mark on his career, and one that will grow if the Patriots win another championship in the coming years.


I vote yes.

Not to nitpick(where did I hear that before?) but technically BB is not on par with VI, CN, or BW until he has won 4, then he catches Noll. Actually I think he has caught up with Walsh but he'll need a couple more to catch Vince.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Anytime a coach produces a "tree" that is even mildly successfull, people should take notice. The Parcells tree is only behind the Walsh tree in sucess.

Whatever Weis, Crennel, Mangini and some of the lesser knowns do from here on out will they still be listed as Parcells protoge's. The Belichick tree will always be linked to the Parcells tree.

They both deserve to be in HOF. Tuna's stamp still remains with this championship caliber team. That is undeniable.

 

[RayClay]

Anytime a coach produces a "tree" that is even mildly successfull, people should take notice. The Parcells tree is only behind the Walsh tree in sucess.

Whatever Weis, Crennel, Mangini and some of the lesser knowns do from here on out will they still be listed as Parcells protoge's. The Belichick tree will always be linked to the Parcells tree.

They both deserve to be in HOF. Tuna's stamp still remains with this championship caliber team. That is undeniable.

* Al Groh, University of Virginia
* Charlie Weis, University of Notre Dame

In addition, Parcells disciple Ray Handley served as head coach for the New York Giants from 1991 through 1992, and Al Groh and Chris Palmer served as head coaches of the New York Jets and Cleveland Browns, respectively, at one time. Former NFL tight end Ben Coates played and served as a tight end coach after retiring under Bill Parcells.

Parcells, Belichick, Coughlin, Payton, and Mangini all were able to guide their respective teams into the 2006 playoffs, accounting for nearly half of the post-season field.

Maybe a stretch with Coates, but that's some coaching talent there.

 

[Seven Nation Army]

This tree is more accurate because the Parcells-Belichick relationship was a partnership, not a mentorship.

Included are NFL and NCAA 1A head coaches. Feel free to tweak it if you want.

 

[patsfan209]

And BB wasn't ever Parcells' DC at NE and NYJ. He was the Assistant Head Coach and DC. Just clarifications.

Um... in NE, BB was brought in by BP as AHC and Defensive Backs coach. Groh has been the Pats DC under BP from start to finish. In the NYJ, there was no doubt BB was AHC, but I'm not certain he ever had the official title of DC, even though it was apparent he was doing the playcalling on the Jets defense... I never saw the DC title for BB anywhere on the Jets website at that time.

 

[Patjew]

For me, it's a definite "yes". Wherever he's coached, he's always achieved a level of excellence. Plus, like him or not, he's always been entertaining.

 

[RayClay]

This tree is more accurate because the Parcells-Belichick relationship was a partnership, not a mentorship.

Included are NFL and NCAA 1A head coaches. Feel free to tweak it if you want.

Since we're picking nits, I'd have to say it was somewhat a mentorship in that they were never coaches of equal rank on the same staff that i can find.

Parcells was always a DC or head coach while BB was an assistant or Parcells DC.

BB was always in the ranks of super assistant, but he was an assistant/ to DC or coach.

 

[Isaac]

YOU were talking about the Giants, I was talking about his NFL career in regards to him being a HOF coach which is the theme of this thread, go back and look if you like.

You said BB was never hired by Parcells. You were wrong.

Pardon me, I got posts confused, but nonetheless the point stands that Parcells' did not hire BB with the Giants and the parity between the two had already been established for the Patriots and Jets hires.

 

[Isaac]

Um... in NE, BB was brought in by BP as AHC and Defensive Backs coach. Groh has been the Pats DC under BP from start to finish. In the NYJ, there was no doubt BB was AHC, but I'm not certain he ever had the official title of DC, even though it was apparent he was doing the playcalling on the Jets defense... I never saw the DC title for BB anywhere on the Jets website at that time.

Ah yes, that's right, thanks for the correction!

 

[italian pat patriot]

no doubts at all: yes is my vote

 

[Michael]

Who the F is voting NO? I mean, come on, people. Be more bitter.

I agree. If a coach like the big tuna doesn't belong there who does?

 

[PatsFanSince74]

By disciple, I don't mean some writers perception of what type of personality he most resembled, I'm talking about nuts and bolts working on the defenses with the coach that was your mentor and also was a defensive coordinator.

I saw a Wiki article that's sourced to the max and i could write a 15 page paper on the 3-4 defense at Texas Tech and Hank Bullough etc. etc. etc.

You have your mind made up and frankly, i don't really care that much about arguing a point that is obvious to me.

Different strokes.

I've been away for a couplof days, but after thinking about your responses to my posts, I've modified my position. Yes, on the facts alone, Parcells does belong in the HOF. You are right. I was wrong. I think my animus against Parcells can be traced to how he left New England, creating a significant distraction before and during SB XXXI. I let that animus cloud my judgment.

Any coach with two trophies who also took more than one team to the SB clearly deserves to be in the HOF on the facts alone.

Where I think we still might disagree is that I don't think of BB as a Parcells disciple or protege.

Clearly, Belichick owed his "shot" to Parcells. No doubt about that. But that alone doesn't make him Parcells' protege or disciple. This was, instead, a relationship to which each brought a powerful set of distinct skills that the other did not have and from which each benefited in collaboration. This was a partnership in which the talents of both, combined, yielded mutual success.

It was Ray Perkins who hired BB as a Special Teams Coach in 1979. He gave him added responsibilities as Linebacker Coach in 1981.

When Parcells took over in 1983, he focused Belichick on the Linebackers and then made him Defensive Coordinator in 1985, the year before the Giants won their first of two SB's under Parcells.

When Parcells hired Belichick back to the Patriots in 1996, the year the Patriots went to the SB, he gave him the title "Assistant Head Coach," a title he kept when they both moved to the Jets in 1997.

If we're trying to understand what went into the formation of a coach that I think will ultimately be mentioned in the same breath as Brown, Lombardi and Walsh, I think we need to look primarily to Brown, Walsh and, yes, even Marchibroda, not to mention his Dad.

I think Belichick himself best summed up his relationship with Parcells in a February 2002 interview:

''One of the things I really appreciated from Bill was the opportunity he gave me to coach the way I wanted to coach...He never asked me to coach the way he coached and I probably wouldn't have been very good at it anyway. He gave me a lot of latitude. He gave me the flexibility to do what I thought was best in the areas that I had responsibility for. In a lot of respects, the things I did were pretty independent of him.''

 

[belichickaholic]

I've been away for a couplof days, but after thinking about your responses to my posts, I've modified my position. Yes, on the facts alone, Parcells does belong in the HOF. You are right. I was wrong. I think my animus against Parcells can be traced to how he left New England, creating a significant distraction before and during SB XXXI. I let that animus cloud my judgment.

Any coach with two trophies who also took more than one team to the SB clearly deserves to be in the HOF on the facts alone.

Where I think we still might disagree is that I don't think of BB as a Parcells disciple or protege.

Clearly, Belichick owed his "shot" to Parcells. No doubt about that. But that alone doesn't make him Parcells' protege or disciple. This was, instead, a relationship to which each brought a powerful set of distinct skills that the other did not have and from which each benefited in collaboration. This was a partnership in which the talents of both, combined, yielded mutual success.

It was Ray Perkins who hired BB as a Special Teams Coach in 1979. He gave him added responsibilities as Linebacker Coach in 1981.

When Parcells took over in 1983, he focused Belichick on the Linebackers and then made him Defensive Coordinator in 1985, the year before the Giants won their first of two SB's under Parcells.

When Parcells hired Belichick back to the Patriots in 1996, the year the Patriots went to the SB, he gave him the title "Assistant Head Coach," a title he kept when they both moved to the Jets in 1997.

If we're trying to understand what went into the formation of a coach that I think will ultimately be mentioned in the same breath as Brown, Lombardi and Walsh, I think we need to look primarily to Brown, Walsh and, yes, even Marchibroda, not to mention his Dad.

I think Belichick himself best summed up his relationship with Parcells in a February 2002 interview:

''One of the things I really appreciated from Bill was the opportunity he gave me to coach the way I wanted to coach...He never asked me to coach the way he coached and I probably wouldn't have been very good at it anyway. He gave me a lot of latitude. He gave me the flexibility to do what I thought was best in the areas that I had responsibility for. In a lot of respects, the things I did were pretty independent of him.''

Not to mention the fact that during a press conference for one of his recent SB's, Belichick was asked to name the people that influenced him the most. He rattled off 11 names without ever mentioning Parcells.

I voted no. I think he's a spinster and nothing more. He flew the coop on the Giants the same year he lost Belichick. He flew the coop on the Patriots because of Bob Kraft. But if he couldn't buy the groceries, why does he get credit for drafting Mcguinest, Law Milloy, ect? He flew the coop on the Jets. This time he said he was sick, oh yeah... he used that one to flee the Giants too. Could it be that he knew he couldn't fix the salary cap mess he made out of that team? Certainly not without Belichick. And lastly, he's left the Cowboys because of Jerry Jones and TO. He's a fraud. Always jumping ship and than either blaming other people or claiming sick. To the hall of fame? No No no! Not for nothing but everyone thought Jim Fassel was a genius, till John Fox went to Carolina.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

Absolutely, and Patriots fans owe a lot to this guy. He turned around the attitude if anything for this franchise.

 

[RayClay]

I've been away for a couplof days, but after thinking about your responses to my posts, I've modified my position. Yes, on the facts alone, Parcells does belong in the HOF. You are right. I was wrong. I think my animus against Parcells can be traced to how he left New England, creating a significant distraction before and during SB XXXI. I let that animus cloud my judgment.

Any coach with two trophies who also took more than one team to the SB clearly deserves to be in the HOF on the facts alone.

Where I think we still might disagree is that I don't think of BB as a Parcells disciple or protege.

Clearly, Belichick owed his "shot" to Parcells. No doubt about that. But that alone doesn't make him Parcells' protege or disciple. This was, instead, a relationship to which each brought a powerful set of distinct skills that the other did not have and from which each benefited in collaboration. This was a partnership in which the talents of both, combined, yielded mutual success.

It was Ray Perkins who hired BB as a Special Teams Coach in 1979. He gave him added responsibilities as Linebacker Coach in 1981.

When Parcells took over in 1983, he focused Belichick on the Linebackers and then made him Defensive Coordinator in 1985, the year before the Giants won their first of two SB's under Parcells.

When Parcells hired Belichick back to the Patriots in 1996, the year the Patriots went to the SB, he gave him the title "Assistant Head Coach," a title he kept when they both moved to the Jets in 1997.

If we're trying to understand what went into the formation of a coach that I think will ultimately be mentioned in the same breath as Brown, Lombardi and Walsh, I think we need to look primarily to Brown, Walsh and, yes, even Marchibroda, not to mention his Dad.

I think Belichick himself best summed up his relationship with Parcells in a February 2002 interview:

''One of the things I really appreciated from Bill was the opportunity he gave me to coach the way I wanted to coach...He never asked me to coach the way he coached and I probably wouldn't have been very good at it anyway. He gave me a lot of latitude. He gave me the flexibility to do what I thought was best in the areas that I had responsibility for. In a lot of respects, the things I did were pretty independent of him.''

I guess i already referenced what I was going to say in that quote. suffice it to say they were two very different personalities that didn't necessarily like each other very much.

BB has admitted he tried to adopt Parcells personality when coaching the Browns and that didn't work very well.

My position was Parcells was his DC then his coach and used the same type of defenses way before BB did. I wasn't a fly on the wall back then, but it seems to me the evidence for influence is strong.

I don't really care how people vote and I don't like tit for tat arguments, so I'm sorry if it seemed personal at all, but I usually stick to my positions until proven wrong and I still think my argument is strong.

Parcells is a jerk, no doubt and there will be no shortage of Belichick came from heaven proponents as evidenced by the post after yours.

 

[RayClay]

Clearly, Belichick owed his "shot" to Parcells. No doubt about that. But that alone doesn't make him Parcells' protege or disciple. This was, instead, a relationship to which each brought a powerful set of distinct skills that the other did not have and from which each benefited in collaboration. This was a partnership in which the talents of both, combined, yielded mutual success.

I hate to pick a nit, but BB was a Defensive coordinator and coach who preferred a 3-4 defense while Parecells was a defensive Coordinator and coach who preferred a 3-4 defense and ran one years before.

They certainly coached differently due to being opposite personalities, but their skills were two branches on the same tree.

Parcells certainly delegated and BB was incredibly talented, but I don't see "distinct" defensive philosophies.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I guess i already referenced what I was going to say in that quote. suffice it to say they were two very different personalities that didn't necessarily like each other very much.

BB has admitted he tried to adopt Parcells personality when coaching the Browns and that didn't work very well.

My position was Parcells was his DC then his coach and used the same type of defenses way before BB did. I wasn't a fly on the wall back then, but it seems to me the evidence for influence is strong.

I don't really care how people vote and I don't like tit for tat arguments, so I'm sorry if it seemed personal at all, but I usually stick to my positions until proven wrong and I still think my argument is strong.

Parcells is a jerk, no doubt and there will be no shortage of Belichick came from heaven proponents as evidenced by the post after yours.

Points taken. This has been a good discussion and we've definitely beat this horse daid. See you around the board.

 

[RayClay]

Points taken. This has been a good discussion and we've definitely beat this horse daid. See you around the board.

That's true.

And how dare you take a couple of days off.

Pretty soon you'll have an actual life and I'll be stuck arguing about Brady's girlfriends.

 

[PromisedLand]

Parcells did not hire Belichick!

While not only invalidating the rest of your argument, this brings up a good point. The perception is that BB was under Parcells with the Giants. They were both hired originally by Perkins (hope that's the right name), when he left they chose to elevate Parcells to head coach even though he had less NFL experience than did BB at the time. Why? Because he was older and had college head coaching experience--BB was very young at the time and it would have been premature.

They then worked together over the next ~10 years and were part of a very good team with excellent drafting by the front office, above average head coaching by Parcells, and the unleashing of BB's defense against the NFL. I grew up a Giants fan, I lived it and it was all about that defense and the way they played that 3-4 with that front seven--it was awesome. Of course Parcells deserves part of the credit for their achievements, but so do the other ~70 people in the organization.

Bill Parcells hired Bill Belichick as his DC in NE. Technically it was Kraft, but if you think Tuna had no input into the hiring I beleive that would be an incorrect assumption. I also beleive, as HC of the Giants, he had input into elevating him.

I don't know all the facts, but when Parcells was hired by the Jet's he brought BB along with him. I doubt there was any stipulation by the Jets that they must have BB, so I can only conclude it was just the opposite.

The Tuna DID hire BB (twice anyway).

Now you're argument is invalidated.

How the heck is Isaac's argument invalidated? The only place Parcells won Super Bowls was with the Giants. People counter the argument that BB was his DC with, "Yuh, but Parcells hired Belichick." Now, Isaac shows that he did NOT.

I in fact think the facts which you present BOLSTER the case against BP. His record with the Patriots before hiring BB:

5-11
10-6, 0-1 playoffs (lost to BB's Browns)
6-10

With BB:

11-5, 3-1 playoffs (lost SB 31 to Packers)

So if anything you are proving that BB has more to do with BP's success than the other way around.