Does Bill Parcells belong in the Hall of Fame?

[Isaac]

Bill Parcells record WITHOUT BB as Assistant Head Coach or Defensive Coordinator:

Regular Season
Won: 67
Lost: 69
Tied: 1
Pctg.: .493

Post-season
Won: 1
Lost: 3
Pctg: .250

Division Championships: 0
Conference Championships: 0
SuperBowl Championships: 0

Wait, Parcells won a playoff game? I thought he never did. His first escapade sans BB was with the Patriots, in those three year Parcells made it to one playoff game and got whipped by, uh, BB.

[Great game, if you ask me. That Browns defense was awesome and they had the two-tail back power running game going. Those that consider BB's coaching/GM preformance at the Browns as a failure tend not to know their history.]

They were both at the Jets throughout. Did the Cowboys win a playoff game? Damn, I mssed that.

 

[PATRIOT64]

I think Belichick's relationship to BP as a coach in the Parcells regime is a big reason why BB is a future Hall Of Fame Coach

I think he learned quite a few things from Bill and mastered them once he had reigns over a team like the Patriots when Parcells was not in the picture anymore.

Definately Parcells is a big reason for the success of Belichick,Parcells is a football genius coach or at least he was in earlier times and definately is a first ballot HOF coach.

I would rank Parcells in the top 10 best NFL coaches of all times without hesitation,definately better than Madden or Shula IMO.

 

[Isaac]

And neither BB or Parcells blocked that field goal either.

Ain't that the truth! God I love this game.

 

[Isaac]

He never took over a mediocre team. They were all awful. Just because he didn't win it all doesn't mean Pats, Jets and Dallas weren't great rebuilding jobs.

I absolutey agree with you. But, do you go to the Hall of Fame for taking bottom-dwellers and building them into mediocre teams?

 

[Isaac]

My point being is that head coaches aren't wallflowers which is what some people think Parcells was when BB was with him. That job title has power to it, much more than you think.

I never said he as a wallflower. I said he was an above average head coach, I'll give him that. That's not an insult.

 

[Isaac]

...I would rank Parcells in the top 10 best NFL coaches of all times without hesitation,definately better than Madden or Shula IMO.

Shula? You don't really meant that.

 

[Isaac]

Yes, but only if they dedicate a viewing room to his post-game clips and sound bites. Nobody man-handled the media better.

You know, this is true, I'll give him that. He was a great persona if only an above average coach, and that is not an insignificant accomplishment. But shouldn't that be in more like, a media hall of fame or something?

 

[RayClay]

I absolutey agree with you. But, do you go to the Hall of Fame for taking bottom-dwellers and building them into mediocre teams?

Not unless you also won two SBs. Look, I think anyone should vote or not vote for whoever they want.

But saying BB wasn't greatly influenced by Parcells and Parcells was a bum without him just reflects on the poster, in my mind.

PS, of course I'm not talking about you, you have a reasonable opinion, though I disagree.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I don't have them, but maybe you should list the records of the teams Parcells started with on the Patriots and Jets for instance.

I'm sure you probably could, but you won't because it will wreck your specious argument that Belichick came fully formed after a virgin birth and Parcells is an idiot.

There is no doubt that Parcells is a great motivator. But the question is where did he ever take those teams without BB? And, Coach Belichick would be the first to acknowledge the various people who influenced his own professional development. I just don't think that Parcells would be at the top of that list. On it, no doubt. Not at the top of it.

As for the rest of your comments, we're not spinning for the media in a televised debate here, we're having a discussion about football, so cut the nonsense about my suggesting that Parcells is an idiot and whatever about a virgin birth.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Wait, Parcells won a playoff game? I thought he never did. His first escapade sans BB was with the Patriots, in those three year Parcells made it to one playoff game and got whipped by, uh, BB.

[Great game, if you ask me. That Browns defense was awesome and they had the two-tail back power running game going. Those that consider BB's coaching/GM preformance at the Browns as a failure tend not to know their history.]

They were both at the Jets throughout. Did the Cowboys win a playoff game? Damn, I mssed that.

Right on the money.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Well if you can prove the word inaccurate, I'll apologize. 15 years under the same coach on three different teams. I'm no Bible scholar, but did any of the original disciples have that type of relationship?

He was reading books about Walsh and such and totally ignoring the boss he followed to three different teams but was totally uninfluenced by,

I think "childish" is a kind way of putting it.

I'll pass on the suggestion that Parcells is JC and Belichick is one of his disciples.

No one said that BB was "uninfluenced" by Parcells, just that his own formation as a coach began way before his time with Parcells. And, describing Belichick's relationship to Walsh as "reading books about" him is just plain wrong.

Finally, statistics can be abused in forming a view in any sport, but in this case the data on Parcells record with and without Belichick are simply overwhelming. He never won without him.

Here's a quote from the late David Halberstam during an interview with WEEI in November 2005 that addresses the relationship between Parcells and Belichick.

I've left in the entire quote and haven't edited it to "make my point." My point is that Parcells the motivator didn't win a thing without Belichick, and Belichick went on to win plenty on his own.

"...the original person who brought them [Parcells and Belichick] together was Ray Perkins, the very tough guy who was to be Bear Bryant's successor at Alabama. He brought them in, and they couldn't be more different. Parcells is the living embodiment, to the degree there is one, of the Vince Lombardi prototype of coach – emotional, making players go in hitting the emotion, getting guys to play harder, and making them feel they're wimps if they can't do it. And then Bill Belichick, who is really, although on defense, a kind of lineal descendant of Bill Walsh – cerebral, doesn't play with the emotions of his players, thinks that everything can be broken down and analyzed. But they came together and it really worked. Parcells knew how to run a team, how to get the emotions, and Belichick was the creator of those great defenses with great players. They stayed together too long. It got harder and harder, I think, the more Belichick got to parity. The more people began to give him credit, I think, the more it grated on Parcells. And they probably should have gotten divorced about two years before they did."

 

[RayClay]

There is no doubt that Parcells is a great motivator. But the question is where did he ever take those teams without BB? And, Coach Belichick would be the first to acknowledge the various people who influenced his own professional development. I just don't think that Parcells would be at the top of that list. On it, no doubt. Not at the top of it.

As for the rest of your comments, we're not spinning for the media in a televised debate here, we're having a discussion about football, so cut the nonsense about my suggesting that Parcells is an idiot and whatever about a virgin birth.

Fair enough, but there is that faction out there that wants to write him off as a no talent just lucky to know Belichick. It's that faction I was addressing.

If you felt personally insulted, then I apologize.

But the question is where did he ever take those teams without BB?

Who knows?

Would BB have been able to turn that team around like Parcells had he been coach?

 

[RayClay]

I'll pass on the suggestion that Parcells is JC and Belichick is one of his disciples.

No one said that BB was "uninfluenced" by Parcells, just that his own formation as a coach began way before his time with Parcells. And, describing Belichick's relationship to Walsh as "reading books about" him is just plain wrong.

Finally, statistics can be abused in forming a view in any sport, but in this case the data on Parcells record with and without Belichick are simply overwhelming. He never won without him.

Here's a quote from the late David Halberstam during an interview with WEEI in November 2005 that addresses the relationship between Parcells and Belichick.

I've left in the entire quote and haven't edited it to "make my point." My point is that Parcells the motivator didn't win a thing without Belichick, and Belichick went on to win plenty on his own.

"...the original person who brought them [Parcells and Belichick] together was Ray Perkins, the very tough guy who was to be Bear Bryant's successor at Alabama. He brought them in, and they couldn't be more different. Parcells is the living embodiment, to the degree there is one, of the Vince Lombardi prototype of coach – emotional, making players go in hitting the emotion, getting guys to play harder, and making them feel they're wimps if they can't do it. And then Bill Belichick, who is really, although on defense, a kind of lineal descendant of Bill Walsh – cerebral, doesn't play with the emotions of his players, thinks that everything can be broken down and analyzed. But they came together and it really worked. Parcells knew how to run a team, how to get the emotions, and Belichick was the creator of those great defenses with great players. They stayed together too long. It got harder and harder, I think, the more Belichick got to parity. The more people began to give him credit, I think, the more it grated on Parcells. And they probably should have gotten divorced about two years before they did."

By disciple, I don't mean some writers perception of what type of personality he most resembled, I'm talking about nuts and bolts working on the defenses with the coach that was your mentor and also was a defensive coordinator.

I saw a Wiki article that's sourced to the max and i could write a 15 page paper on the 3-4 defense at Texas Tech and Hank Bullough etc. etc. etc.

You have your mind made up and frankly, i don't really care that much about arguing a point that is obvious to me.

Different strokes.

 

[rabthepat]

I do not think stats are a critical factor in determining the HOF. Most people who get in or nominated all have reasonable stats. To me, Parcells easily meets any minimum standard for coaching stats.

If Marv Levy, Hank Stram and Bud Grant are in the HOF then Parcells is easily justifiable. Being elected to the HOF is similar now to being elected President of the USA. It's about the voters and the mood of the country. Was Bush the most qualified, smartest or experienced candidate? No! But the voters were in a mood to say "What the heck let's give him a shot." I just don't see any of the current HOF voters going against the persona of Bill Parcells.

 

[patsfan209]

So that is the ultimate essence of your argument then? That the head coach always gets credit for the defense, regardless. That seems a little extreme, no?

A little extreme?

You sound like you don't have much respect for the coaching command ladder. To answer your question... Its the Head Coach's players (GM picking 'em isn't the point). He's the one who put the final roster together. The defensive coordinator is his assistant who runs the Head Coach's defensive players.

Yeah I understand and read that Parcells gave BB full control in playcalling and defensive gameplanning those Giants years, but its really 99% control... that 1% is Parcell's veto power.

Wouldn't you at least allow, that in the rarest of cases, a coordinator would pretty much run the defense?

By saying "its BB's Giants defense" that means to me he did the grocery shopping, cuts and adds players on D, did the gameplanning, playcalling, etc. What did that make Parcells? A powerless figurehead? I definitely say that BP always had final say in all matters within his coaching staff and roster. Even though it didn't seem that way, he did have that power to say "Don't play prevent defense here, I want to bull-rush the passer on the next play". And BB would've followed that direct order.

In the case of BB and Buddy Ryan, I can only say in my POV they had 99% control, its just that 1% that is left for their HCs to exercise their authority when necessary. Otherwise whats the point of having a HC at all...

 

[patsfan209]

But saying BB wasn't greatly influenced by Parcells and Parcells was a bum without him just reflects on the poster, in my mind.

Ray: this pretty much tells me the poster has an ax to grind with Parcells and the attempt to discredit him as much as possible. I don't like the way BP left us at SBXXXI, but I still give him credit with the work he has done with the Giants, Pats, and the other teams he coached.

 

[jimmyjames]

Parcells belongs in Canton.

A big part of being elected to the HOF is based on comparison to an individual's peers. Over the last 20 years there are only a handful of coaches that have managed to stay employed for longer than 2 years at a time, let alone leave on their own terms with winning records.

Since 1985 on who has even been in the same class let alone better than the Tuna?

Belichick - Lock for the HOF
Shanahan (2 Super Bowls with Denver) - probably
Marv Levy - already in
Bill Cowher - I don't see anyone coaching the same team longer than he coached the Steelers in this era - but still a reach
Dan Reeves - Couldn't win the big game - maybe
Schottenheimer - no way
Shula - already in, best work was done way before salary cap era
Bill Walsh - In
George Siefert - Will be tough since he pretty much inherited Walsh's team
Ditka - already in, but not for his coaching skills - could not get it done in NO
Vermeil - Too much time off

We have a couple up and comers like Jon Gruden and Andy Reid, but they will have to be employed and successful for at least another 10 years to even be considered.

Who am I missing?

 

[OhExaulted1]

Parcells did not hire Belichick!

While not only invalidating the rest of your argument, this brings up a good point. The perception is that BB was under Parcells with the Giants. They were both hired originally by Perkins (hope that's the right name), when he left they chose to elevate Parcells to head coach even though he had less NFL experience than did BB at the time. Why? Because he was older and had college head coaching experience--BB was very young at the time and it would have been premature.

They then worked together over the next ~10 years and were part of a very good team with excellent drafting by the front office, above average head coaching by Parcells, and the unleashing of BB's defense against the NFL. I grew up a Giants fan, I lived it and it was all about that defense and the way they played that 3-4 with that front seven--it was awesome. Of course Parcells deserves part of the credit for their achievements, but so do the other ~70 people in the organization.

Bill Parcells hired Bill Belichick as his DC in NE. Technically it was Kraft, but if you think Tuna had no input into the hiring I beleive that would be an incorrect assumption. I also beleive, as HC of the Giants, he had input into elevating him.

I don't know all the facts, but when Parcells was hired by the Jet's he brought BB along with him. I doubt there was any stipulation by the Jets that they must have BB, so I can only conclude it was just the opposite.

The Tuna DID hire BB (twice anyway).

Now you're argument is invalidated.

 

[Isaac]

Bill Parcells hired Bill Belichick as his DC in NE. Technically it was Kraft, but if you think Tuna had no input into the hiring I beleive that would be an incorrect assumption. I also beleive, as HC of the Giants, he had input into elevating him.

I don't know all the facts, but when Parcells was hired by the Jet's he brought BB along with him. I doubt there was any stipulation by the Jets that they must have BB, so I can only conclude it was just the opposite.

The Tuna DID hire BB (twice anyway).

Now you're argument is invalidated.

We were talking about the Giants hire, go back and look if you like. And BB wasn't ever Parcells' DC at NE and NYJ. He was the Assistant Head Coach and DC. Just clarifications.

 

[OhExaulted1]

We were talking about the Giants hire, go back and look if you like. And BB wasn't ever Parcells' DC at NE and NYJ. He was the Assistant Head Coach and DC. Just clarifications.

YOU were talking about the Giants, I was talking about his NFL career in regards to him being a HOF coach which is the theme of this thread, go back and look if you like.

You said BB was never hired by Parcells. You were wrong.