Did PIT unleash the beast of Copy Cat D?

[Ring 6]

They've had 3 bad games in a row, and I didn't think they looked all that impressive against Oakland.

How many rough games does it take before people are allowed to notice a trend and comment on it?

By the way, which part of 400 yards of offense 183 rushing yards and 31 points did you find unimpressive vs the Raiders?
What does it take to impress you?

 

[alvinnf]

The blueprint for beating NE is making NE feel as though a run game is completely unnecesary. You can do that in a number of schemes in the NFL. It's institutional arogance or just plain stupidity on the part of NE.

 

[Rob0729]

Way to be smug.




And by the way you are wrong. Pitt has always had one of the top defenses in the league & Brady & Co. have eaten them alive. It was only after they changed their defensive philosophy, as the poster has pointed out and you derisively dismiss, that they were able to disupt the Patriots' offense.



Not sure what your doing here. After saying, the blueprint is to have a top defense, you now seem to have changed direction and now agree with the poster. If your point is that you need a great defense and the front pressure/press coverage gameplan to have a chance against Brady, you should have said that. And then the debate could have began.



Blindsided the Pats? Really? They've been disrupted by this gameplan how many times now? Is it not possible that they were aware they might see it, but might not have all the answers yet for this kind of coverage coming from a good defensive unit?

Several things:

1.) Yes, I was rude to the original poster and I apologize to him/her. The whole "Blueprint to stop the Pats' offense" discussion is a pet peeve of mine. But shouldn't have taken it out on the original poster.

2.)The Pats haven't been beaten by that scheme all that often. Just a handful of times. The Jets beat them in the playoffs last year by playing a different scheme (note I mispoke earlier on that). The Jets switched from their usual man coverage to a zone and played mostly zone. They beat them eariler in the year with a lot of blitzes and doubling of Moss, but not concerned with anyone else even Welker since Brady was forcing it to Moss. Cleveland last year threw bunch of things at the Pats. The only two games that really stand out in my mind was this past week and the Giants' Super Bowl. Other people mention the Ravens' game in 2007, but that game also had hurricane type winds which might have had effect on it.

3.) Of course you can blindside a team if you change your entire game plan against another team especially the Pats as long as you can execute. The Pats offense is very much a match up specific offense. The game plan for the Pats is always to exploit the other teams weaknesses. If the entire passing game game plan is to exploit certain zones in zone coverage and the other team runs near exclusively man to man which they rarely run, then it is much harder to adjust. If the Pats ran the same offense week after week, then it would make it easier for them.

4.) While on this point, just because teams run the same defense and/or use the same game plan as another tem that was successful, it doesn't mean both teams have the same strengths and weaknesses. That means even if it is a legitimate blueprint to stop the Pats offense, it doesn't mean that Brady can't find weakness in certain teams (or most teams) that run it. For example, for this particular "blueprint" to be successful, being able to generate a strong pass rush with only three or four pass rushers is a mandatory or Brady will kill you.

5.) On that point, two of Brady's biggest strengths are his preparedness and ability to read defenses before the snap. So if the Steelers come out with formations that no one has seen them run before, that takes away those strengths of Brady because it is harder for him to figure out the presnap reads and for that matter the rest of the offense.

6.) One of the most overlooked story of last week was the awful play by Vollmer. It looks like they rushed him back too quickly. They should have kept Solder at RT full time. Too many times you saw him push off rushers trying to knock them off their patterns rather than engage them to stop them. It is probably because he cannot handle the push with his back.

7.) The Pats have ways to exploit this "blueprint", but they didn't use any of them. First, they gave up on the run. Second, they didn't send Welker in motion all that much. Third, Brady seemed to focused on Faulk and not focused on the one guy in the receiving corp who excels against man coverage - Hernandez. If they corrected several of those things this past Sunday and they would have been more successful.

8.) Even though the Pats didn't perform particularly well on offense, Brady did complete 68.6% of his passes (his third best completion rate of the season) for 198 yards and 2 TDs (no INTs). If Gostkowski didn't miss a field goal, they would have scored on half their possessions. The biggest problem is that the Pats didn't have the ball that long because the Steelers held onto the ball for 31:47 in just 5 of their 9 drives. So they controlled the time of possession so well that they held onto the ball for more than half the game with 55.6% of their possessions. The Steelers found the best way to shutdown the Pats' offense and that is keep them off the field for most of the game.

 

[Rob0729]

They've had 3 bad games in a row, and I didn't think they looked all that impressive against Oakland.

How many rough games does it take before people are allowed to notice a trend and comment on it?

Yeah, the Pats' offense only got 409 yards and 31 points against Oakland. Pretty bad performance. Was it a bad performance because the Pats got 183 of those yards and two TDs on the ground? The Pats' offense played just fine especial when you consider two offensive starters were out in Hernandez and Vollmer.

Again, was the game vs. the Jets bad too because the Pats Grounded and Pounded the Jets to death with 152 yard rushing and 446 yards and 31 points total?

If these are bad offensive games, more teams wish their offenses suck like that. Has the running game been gone for so long that if the Pats beat teams on offense with a running game that they think that it is a poor offensive performance. Both those games were very good offensive performances.

Against Dallas, the only problem with the offense was the turnovers. Even then, the Pats still had 371 yards and 20 points.

 

[Rob0729]

There is no blueprint unless you consider "Play excellent defense against a great offense" to be a decision each team can flippantly make each week.

I think there is a "blueprint" to a certain point. Every team has strengths and weaknesses and this team has a harder time vs. man coverage and teams that can pressure Brady consistently without a blitz. That said, that doesn't mean that any team can drop into man coverage and disrupt Brady with a four man rush. It takes a top defense to execute that plan.

We can call it a blueprint or it is the Pats' weakness, but in that aspect of the "blueprint" argument the people who believe this have a point. One thing is for sure, just because it worked this past Sunday doesn't mean it will work again at any point in this season including the playoffs.

 

[mb6592]

I think there is a "blueprint" to a certain point. Every team has strengths and weaknesses and this team has a harder time vs. man coverage and teams that can pressure Brady consistently without a blitz. That said, that doesn't mean that any team can drop into man coverage and disrupt Brady with a four man rush. It takes a top defense to execute that plan.

We can call it a blueprint or it is the Pats' weakness, but in that aspect of the "blueprint" argument the people who believe this have a point. One thing is for sure, just because it worked this past Sunday doesn't mean it will work again at any point in this season including the playoffs.

Exactly, slowing down the Pats' offense a little bit only becomes a problem when the defense fails to get off the field and/or fails to play at a respectable level.

 

[Snake Eyes]

so in the end it was Romeo who PHUCKED us.


2 ex-assistants in 1 year The RAT and Romeo. The Romeo thing pisses me off... He knew us the BEST... he used what worked against us and knew first hand what things gave us trouble. 2007 should have been glorious, but many mistakes occurred, but Romeo exploiting us was huge. I had no idea he was the causation of all of this. He had the RIGHT to do so, it is ironic how an ex-assistant was used for a new basis of planning against BB. It led to the 2007 let down and the exploitation of Tom Brady.

This is why the idea of not paying your coordinators and other coaches well is a BAD idea, if you have someone good in your organization you make every reasonable effort to keep them, not paying them well just ensures that at best you'll be a coaching talent farm for your competition.

 

[Ring 6]

I think there is a "blueprint" to a certain point. Every team has strengths and weaknesses and this team has a harder time vs. man coverage and teams that can pressure Brady consistently without a blitz. That said, that doesn't mean that any team can drop into man coverage and disrupt Brady with a four man rush. It takes a top defense to execute that plan.

We can call it a blueprint or it is the Pats' weakness, but in that aspect of the "blueprint" argument the people who believe this have a point. One thing is for sure, just because it worked this past Sunday doesn't mean it will work again at any point in this season including the playoffs.

I dont consider it a blueprint to say that a defense that can drop 7 and still get pressure on the passer will do better.
What the argument adds up to is the blueprint is that good defenses do better against our offense than bad defenses. Duh.
Our offense has been SLOWED from time to time, essentially RARELY, and in each case it was by a team using a different scheme.

 

[alvinnf]

I think there is a "blueprint" to a certain point. Every team has strengths and weaknesses and this team has a harder time vs. man coverage and teams that can pressure Brady consistently without a blitz. That said, that doesn't mean that any team can drop into man coverage and disrupt Brady with a four man rush. It takes a top defense to execute that plan.

We can call it a blueprint or it is the Pats' weakness, but in that aspect of the "blueprint" argument the people who believe this have a point. One thing is for sure, just because it worked this past Sunday doesn't mean it will work again at any point in this season including the playoffs.

The Patriots offense can be stopped by any scheme. Balt 07 was a bltzing hybrid of the 46. The Giants in the bowl employed a traditional 43 front and mixed in zone blitz concepts. Pitt this year played a zone blitz concept but in reality they were happy to be in man press on the outside. The point is you be this offense by using pressure, zone, man or whatever you choose is best for that day. The only constant is they all manhandle NE at the point of attack. Wether in the run game or outside To stop it you have establish a run game and not be afraid to stick with it if you are trailing. IMO having TB under center is a terrifying proposition with their current personnel. When he's in shotgun offset with a back when teams are in the dime I just cringe!

 

[FCB02062]

Know what will beat those NYJ/PIT defensive schemes? The ability to run the flucking football down their throats. Line up, man on man, and beat it down their throats like the Patriots in with Corey Dillon against Indianapolis....Oh I miss the 2004 Patriots offense with Dillon....

 

[Ring 6]

Know what will beat those NYJ/PIT defensive schemes? The ability to run the flucking football down their throats. Line up, man on man, and beat it down their throats like the Patriots in with Corey Dillon against Indianapolis....Oh I miss the 2004 Patriots offense with Dillon....

You mean like we did to the Jets 3 weeks ago?

 

[Ring 6]

The Patriots offense can be stopped by any scheme. Balt 07 was a bltzing hybrid of the 46. The Giants in the bowl employed a traditional 43 front and mixed in zone blitz concepts. Pitt this year played a zone blitz concept but in reality they were happy to be in man press on the outside. The point is you be this offense by using pressure, zone, man or whatever you choose is best for that day. The only constant is they all manhandle NE at the point of attack. Wether in the run game or outside To stop it you have establish a run game and not be afraid to stick with it if you are trailing. IMO having TB under center is a terrifying proposition with their current personnel. When he's in shotgun offset with a back when teams are in the dime I just cringe!

You can beat this offense with any scheme, but you can beat this offense less often with any scheme than any other offense in the NFL.

 

[FCB02062]

You mean like we did to the Jets 3 weeks ago?

I wasn't playing, and I'm pretty sure you weren't either, and I'm pretty sure no one on this forum was playing, so I don't about "we" doing anything to the NYJ...
But....
I'd feel much more confident with a feature back like Corey Dillon than with the cavalcade of running backs the Pats roll in and out now. I like Green-Ellis as much as the next guy, but he's no #28 from U of Washington...

 

[Ring 6]

I wasn't playing, and I'm pretty sure you weren't either, and I'm pretty sure no one on this forum was playing, so I don't about "we" doing anything to the NYJ...
But....
I'd feel much more confident with a feature back like Corey Dillon than with the cavalcade of running backs the Pats roll in and out now. I like Green-Ellis as much as the next guy, but he's no #28 from U of Washington...

Forgot you were a Jet fan/

 

[Nordberg]

At the end of the day....our WR's don't scare anyone. If I'm a DC game planning against the Pats offense. I play press coverage with an extra DB on on the field....and flood the middle part of the field to take away Wes and the TE's

 

[FCB02062]

Forgot you were a Jet fan/

FUNNY FUNNY!

 

[Gumby]

on the giants in SB setting a blueprint:
Great if you can blueprint that your opponents RG goes down in the first quarter and you can get dominant inside pressure for the rest of the game as a result. I like that blue print against any team.


On how you stop the Pit blueprint:

step1: send the nfl a set of video cuts of all the uncalled PI/holding going on against your receivers.

step2: if you dont think we have enough speed outside; swing Hernandez and maybe Gronk too out to wr positions and motion the wrs inside. See how they deal with that.

step3: as someone else said: run the ball at em sometime more than a few pathetic times.

step4: also previously mentioned - dont put a RT out there who is broke and unsure of himself when you got an potential/almost pro-bowl rookie who has already played 6 games.

 

[Jackson 2]

At the end of the day....our WR's don't scare anyone. If I'm a DC game planning against the Pats offense. I play press coverage with an extra DB on on the field....and flood the middle part of the field to take away Wes and the TE's

At the end of the day, our tight ends ought to scare the living sh** out of everyone. And they do. I guess I'm trying to figure out how WW (a WR) doesn't "scare anyone" and has beaten most teams consistently since he came to NE like a Salvation Army drum.

 

[Rob0729]

I dont consider it a blueprint to say that a defense that can drop 7 and still get pressure on the passer will do better.
What the argument adds up to is the blueprint is that good defenses do better against our offense than bad defenses. Duh.
Our offense has been SLOWED from time to time, essentially RARELY, and in each case it was by a team using a different scheme.

I guess I didn't explain that very well. Yes, the Pats have weaknesses on offense that can be exploited. Even elite offenses have weaknesses that at least have the potential of being exploited. It usually takes an elite defense (or what passes for an elite defense these days) to actually efficiently exploit them. In that sense, yes there is a blueprint.

If people think that most teams can just study the game film of last Sunday's game or the Giants' Super Bowl or the Jets playoff game last year and think they can duplicate any of those "blueprints", then they are sadly mistaken.

 

[Rob0729]

Know what will beat those NYJ/PIT defensive schemes? The ability to run the flucking football down their throats. Line up, man on man, and beat it down their throats like the Patriots in with Corey Dillon against Indianapolis....Oh I miss the 2004 Patriots offense with Dillon....

The Pats had 183 yards on the ground vs. Oakland and 152 yards on the ground vs. the Jets. The Pats have been running down people's throat this season. I don't know why they didn't try to run more vs. the Steelers though.