Defense? What defense!!!

[supafly]

Look, I don't understand this. If the offense goes three and out repeatedly, why would you blame the defense for the loss?

Because it is not Brady's job to play like a machine made re-incarnation of Marino and Montana put together.

If you are expecting the offense to consistantly put up 30+ pts every single game to win, and then one game they only put up 21, or 23--what do you predict will happen?

Yes, we will likely lose.

The defense is average at best. It is on them to take us to the next level.

 

[supafly]

People need to realize the approach of our defense.. Still bend but not break, more prone to provoke turnovers than worried of allowing yards. Allowing yards are meaningless if you constantly win the turnover battle. The idea here is not to allow the opponent to score more points than your offense do.... That they have done just fine.

Yes, but the other side of the coin is--can you always depend on turnovers?

I think we know the answer to that question. It's 2010 all over again, or at least it certainly looks that way thru 2 games.

Not only has the pass rush certainly not improved, but now the secondary actually looks worse. Our safeties look horrible, and even McCourty doesn't look like himself out there.

It's not a matter of wanting to argue, or be pessimistic or a downer. It's a matter of honestly and fairly wondering if it's any different than last yr, and wondering if we will be able to go to the next level. Eventually Brady is going to throw (gasp) a pick or two, or another team like Green Bay/New Orleans, even Pittsburgh etc will match us score for score.

 

[Joker]

it's never good enough around here...the Pats win by 14 points but it's real bad...the offense moves the ball but they didn't score every time they had the ball...this is real bad...players get nicked up...real bad...everything is bad all the time....instead of Parcells 101"good defense forces turnovers" ..it's, "those turnovers were REAL BAD!!!! because what if they don't get those turnovers???..then it's all bad...and we don't want turnovers if we may not get turnovers in a future game...so they really don't count and only BAD and BAD FEELING counts...and you watch, some day we'll be right and you'll see HOW BAD everything is..in fact, today was REAL BAD...a terrible win"...

I'm just sick of all the constant nit picking and bellyaching...guess what...the OTHER guys get paid to play too...and some of them are pretty dyamed GREAT football players...you SAW plenty of them out there today in Charger uniforms...but if a 14 point win has to be a real downer and real bad, then keep up the bawking and chicken clucking...

 

[supafly]

People need to realize the approach of our defense.. Still bend but not break, more prone to provoke turnovers than worried of allowing yards. Allowing yards are meaningless if you constantly win the turnover battle. The idea here is not to allow the opponent to score more points than your offense do.... That they have done just fine.

And also, I think the high majority of us were actually pretty optimistic and excited that the defense may be more pressure based..more attacking this yr than 'bend-don't-break.'

So it's likely a shock of sorts that it's not any different at all. With all of the off-season acquisitions and hype etc, it seemed as though we were all pretty excited that we'd be more attacking and play like an actual good defense.

It will catch up to them, and that is unfortunate. Hopefully, they will continue to improve and end up playing like the 2010 defense down the stretch...(minus the playoff game of course)

 

[supafly]

it's never good enough around here...the Pats win by 14 points but it's real bad...the offense moves the ball but they didn't score every time they had the ball...this is real bad...players get nicked up...real bad...everything is bad all the time....instead of Parcells 101"good defense forces turnovers" ..it's, "those turnovers were REAL BAD!!!! because what if they don't get those turnovers???..then it's all bad...and we don't want turnovers if we may not get turnovers in a future game...so they really don't count and only BAD and BAD FEELING counts...and you watch, some day we'll be right and you'll see HOW BAD everything is..in fact, today was REAL BAD...a terrible win"...

I'm just sick of all the constant nit picking and bellyaching...guess what...the OTHER guys get paid to play too...and some of them are pretty dyamed GREAT football players...you SAW plenty of them out there today in Charger uniforms...but if a 14 point win has to be a real downer and real bad, then keep up the bawking and chicken clucking...

Nah, I certainly don't mean to be that way Joker, believe me.

I am extremely happy and grateful for every single Sunday with this team.

But in a thread that's about defense, you can't blame someone for telling it like it is too.

I think most of us had higher expectations that the D would do it's job like the offense does, thus making a very, very good SB caliber team.

It just doesn't look much different than last yr, at least thru 2 games anyway.

I certainly am apologetic to my posting buddies for not chugging the kool-aid in this thread. I am extremely lucky as a fan to see such great offensive football, and such great coaching and Special teams. I do think that the defense has a long way to go, but that's just my opinion.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree with many of your points. The D does not have to be great to make a SB run, and I also agree that they should improve.

However, I can also see the other viewpoint. The one where we look the exact same as last yr. It's only a matter of time before Brady actually throws for 'only' 300 yds and 2 TD's, having right around his career QB rating (see the NYJ playoff loss). Then everyone will suddenly blame him again for only having an average-to-good game (by all other QB's standards).

But also, and not to be argumentative--we all know that the 21 pts given up was another nicely wrapped package of turnovers from SD. They moved the ball at will, up and down the field. Up and down, over and over. Wasn't there one point where they had it inside the NE 30 yd line 5 times in a row? LOL. That's not good defense. They looked like a sieve out there today, 21 pts or not. And provided that we never see Ihedigbo play a down at safety again. And provided that we never again see Ihedigbo play a down at safety in a remotely close game.

Vince Wilfork actually saved this game with his unlikely pick. I am not expecting that to happen too often.

While this team is incredibly potent on offense and will allow us to compete, they certainly seem like the same defense to me. And eventually that will catch up to them..or at least that's what we're all afraid of anyway.

I think the Pats are in a state of transition where they have an even harder time than most in dealing with tall, athletic WR's. So far, we've put McCourty on them, and he hasn't got the job done. Today, Vincent Jackson pretty much was the Chargers' offense (with a notable assist from Ryan Mathews). If we get better with WRs like Marshall and Jackson, I think we'll be fine. Not great, but maybe/hopefully good enough. I also think that that good enough may come in the form of Ras-I Dowling. Given his unusual skill-set, that certainly seems to be what he was drafted for. Hopefully he'll be good enough at it that, by the end of the season, we can trust him in such a role *if* we get that kind of a playoff matchup (let's face it, a lot of winning the SB is getting favorable matchups).

I'm also not entirely convinced that these turnovers are coincidental. This wasn't rookie Mark Sanchez lobbing a few directly to Leigh Bodden. One interception was forced by QB pressure, and Tolbert's fumble was forced by Mayo doing exactly what 75% of this board has been on his case for not doing: being alert and causing a big play. They played situational football correctly, got the stops that they needed to get, and did enough for their offense to beat a playoff-caliber team convincingly. The 200 Saints and 2010 Packers defenses were better than this one, but I think this defense can get to their level, given enough time.

 

[supafly]

it's never good enough around here...the Pats win by 14 points but it's real bad...the offense moves the ball but they didn't score every time they had the ball...this is real bad...players get nicked up...real bad...everything is bad all the time....instead of Parcells 101"good defense forces turnovers" ..it's, "those turnovers were REAL BAD!!!! because what if they don't get those turnovers???..then it's all bad...and we don't want turnovers if we may not get turnovers in a future game...so they really don't count and only BAD and BAD FEELING counts...and you watch, some day we'll be right and you'll see HOW BAD everything is..in fact, today was REAL BAD...a terrible win"...

I'm just sick of all the constant nit picking and bellyaching...guess what...the OTHER guys get paid to play too...and some of them are pretty dyamed GREAT football players...you SAW plenty of them out there today in Charger uniforms...but if a 14 point win has to be a real downer and real bad, then keep up the bawking and chicken clucking...

If there was not enough honesty and balance in my posts, then for that I am sorry. I defintely am not one of those people who b!tches about all that did not go right...

I am trying to give a fair and balanced view as to what the consistant problems have been, and what the "downside" of Brady not throwing for 400+ is going to be.

You are obviously extremely right that the offense looks incredible, and a win's a win...so we can all appreciate that fact, and look forward to next week.

 

[Deus Irae]

People need to realize the approach of our defense.. Still bend but not break, more prone to provoke turnovers than worried of allowing yards. Allowing yards are meaningless if you constantly win the turnover battle. The idea here is not to allow the opponent to score more points than your offense do.... That they have done just fine.

When the team did not win the turnover battle in the playoff game, it lost. You can't count on turnovers. You need to improve the defense, not pray for improved luck. Why don't people here ever learn?

 

[Deus Irae]

it's never good enough around here...the Pats win by 14 points but it's real bad...the offense moves the ball but they didn't score every time they had the ball...this is real bad...players get nicked up...real bad...everything is bad all the time....instead of Parcells 101"good defense forces turnovers" ..it's, "those turnovers were REAL BAD!!!! because what if they don't get those turnovers???..then it's all bad...and we don't want turnovers if we may not get turnovers in a future game...so they really don't count and only BAD and BAD FEELING counts...and you watch, some day we'll be right and you'll see HOW BAD everything is..in fact, today was REAL BAD...a terrible win"...

I'm just sick of all the constant nit picking and bellyaching...guess what...the OTHER guys get paid to play too...and some of them are pretty dyamed GREAT football players...you SAW plenty of them out there today in Charger uniforms...but if a 14 point win has to be a real downer and real bad, then keep up the bawking and chicken clucking...

The defense played like crap for portions of the game, and it made some big mistakes. Why should people pretend otherwise?

 

[supafly]

I think the Pats are in a state of transition where they have an even harder time than most in dealing with tall, athletic WR's. So far, we've put McCourty on them, and he hasn't got the job done. Today, Vincent Jackson pretty much was the Chargers' offense (with a notable assist from Ryan Mathews). If we get better with WRs like Marshall and Jackson, I think we'll be fine. Not great, but maybe/hopefully good enough. I also think that that good enough may come in the form of Ras-I Dowling. Given his unusual skill-set, that certainly seems to be what he was drafted for. Hopefully he'll be good enough at it that, by the end of the season, we can trust him in such a role *if* we get that kind of a playoff matchup (let's face it, a lot of winning the SB is getting favorable matchups).

I'm also not entirely convinced that these turnovers are coincidental. This wasn't rookie Mark Sanchez lobbing a few directly to Leigh Bodden. One interception was forced by QB pressure, and Tolbert's fumble was forced by Mayo doing exactly what 75% of this board has been on his case for not doing: being alert and causing a big play. They played situational football correctly, got the stops that they needed to get, and did enough for their offense to beat a playoff-caliber team convincingly. The 200 Saints and 2010 Packers defenses were better than this one, but I think this defense can get to their level, given enough time.

Very fair point about the QB pressure on Rivers, thus forcing the INT. It seems like the potential is there. Maybe the transition to a 4-3 is going to have some bumps along the way, that is to be expected.

The situational football, coaching, ST-play, and offense have been phenomonal--absolutely!! Those are all great points, and I couldn't be happier. I think if it had been a thread about offense etc, I'd have sounded like the biggest homer in here.

I think Dowling is a good, physical CB too. I hope that we get to see that come out, and that he stays away from the injury bug.

I agree that the turnovers are great, and the run defense should be better too. Hopefully we will see the same progression as the yr unfolds like last season, and that's when it matters anyway--down the stretch of course.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Nah, I certainly don't mean to be that way Joker, believe me.

I am extremely happy and grateful for every single Sunday with this team.

But in a thread that's about defense, you can't blame someone for telling it like it is too.

I think most of us had higher expectations that the D would do it's job like the offense does, thus making a very, very good SB caliber team.

It just doesn't look much different than last yr, at least thru 2 games anyway.

I certainly am apologetic to my posting buddies for not chugging the kool-aid in this thread. I am extremely lucky as a fan to see such great offensive football, and such great coaching and Special teams. I do think that the defense has a long way to go, but that's just my opinion.

I think the bolded section is where we disagree. IMO, the defense did do its job today. 21 points against the Chargers is a good thing. When that comes from forcing 4 turnovers and getting goal line stand, all the better. It's still a work in progress, but it's coming along. Just remember how much the defense improved from the beginning to the end of last year, then imagine it making even half that improvement this year, based on how many rookies and second/third year guys there are, is that unreasonable?

I'm probably overdoing it because I'm pretty drunk right now, hahaha. I guess I just don't see much reason to be pessimistic after a two touchdown win over the Chargers.

 

[supafly]

I think the Pats are in a state of transition where they have an even harder time than most in dealing with tall, athletic WR's. So far, we've put McCourty on them, and he hasn't got the job done. Today, Vincent Jackson pretty much was the Chargers' offense (with a notable assist from Ryan Mathews). If we get better with WRs like Marshall and Jackson, I think we'll be fine. Not great, but maybe/hopefully good enough. I also think that that good enough may come in the form of Ras-I Dowling. Given his unusual skill-set, that certainly seems to be what he was drafted for. Hopefully he'll be good enough at it that, by the end of the season, we can trust him in such a role *if* we get that kind of a playoff matchup (let's face it, a lot of winning the SB is getting favorable matchups).

I'm also not entirely convinced that these turnovers are coincidental. This wasn't rookie Mark Sanchez lobbing a few directly to Leigh Bodden. One interception was forced by QB pressure, and Tolbert's fumble was forced by Mayo doing exactly what 75% of this board has been on his case for not doing: being alert and causing a big play. They played situational football correctly, got the stops that they needed to get, and did enough for their offense to beat a playoff-caliber team convincingly. The 200 Saints and 2010 Packers defenses were better than this one, but I think this defense can get to their level, given enough time.

Just noticed your addition to my post in the 3rd paragraph, with the last 2 sentences regarding Ihedigbo. Good stuff, good stuff

 

[Joker]

MY post wasn't directed at you, Supafly...sorry...guess I am being obtuse..it's directed at the general tenor of the threads post game..I get home a couple of hours after the game and I find all these ridiculous knee jerk takes on the game I just SAW in person...all I have to say is I didn't hear anyone complaining on the way out the gate. They got 2 sacks off blitzes....the thing was I didn't see much blitzing at all...Wilfork had 2 tackles and 2 pressures...Haynesworth didn't even show up in the box score...the plan seemed to be to cover Gates and keep everything in front of them....Gates had ZERO receptions...find me the post or the thread that even MENTIONS this very important statistic.,..he's a friggin' all pro's all pro for Chrissakes...THAT was obviously the defensive GAME PLAN...I didn't like the lack of pressure BUT ,like I said, looking at the scoreboard on the way out the gate makes one feel a little bit less upset about expectations not met as far as racking up gaudy sacks. I'll say this, if we DID blitz a lot,Gates would have destroyed our soft middle of the secondary...and V Jack would have had an easier time of getting over the top of the defense, which I believe he DID NOT do today.

A 14 point win, I take it and run...every single time...SOMEBODY must know what they're doing.

 

[supafly]

I'm probably overdoing it because I'm pretty drunk right now, hahaha. I guess I just don't see much reason to be pessimistic after a two touchdown win over the Chargers.

That is certainly something we agree on for sure, absolutely no reason to be pessimistic after a 14 pt win.

Hopefully we'll see that good progression throughout the season on D that we saw last yr.

Other than that, I am hoping that the master plan with the safeties works out, and that there is improved play in regards to the pass rush and pass coverage.

 

[supafly]

MY post wasn't directed at you...sorry...guess I am being obtuse..it's directed at the general tenor of the threads post game...

I know that, I know that you weren't personally calling me out, I just didn't want to be lumped in to that group either.

There's a huge difference between some here who complain about everything, and commenting in a thread about the defense (albeit in a way that will certainly piss some people off). No worries here buddy.

And you definitely have a point that blitzing was obviously not part of the game plan, and rightfully so. It's the coverage that has my panties in a bunch I think.

On to the next one though..nothing like starting the yr 2-0.

 

[Betterthanmost]

I guess some people want us to be like the Jets, but how can we be like the Jets when we get called for what the Jets do every fecking game. Look at the calls the refs made. with calls like that, the Jets will never get off the field.

And what do you think of SD's defense? Do they have any defense?

30/42 358yds
Take a guess whose stat are those, he went against the great Raven's defense. Changing times fellow. Get with the program or else gtfo.

I mean the Panther's put up 23 points on Green Bays defense, Cam Newton threw for over 400yds. It has become a turn over league. Make few and you win.
Let me stop here as I don't think you have a trained mind.

 

[livinginthe past]

There are some people who just don't believe in context.

They believe you can say something is 'bad' when you won't even define what 'average' should be

Brady and the Patriots offense have looked ridicululously good through 2 games - putting up crazy numbers left, right and centre.

How good do we think those Miami and San Diego defenses are?

Lets be realistic here.

In terms of yards conceded in 2010 the teams rank.

San Diego: 1st
Miami: 6th

We put up an average of about 563 yards of offense on defenses that conceded an average of 290 yards per game last year.

This tells us one of two things.

1. Its early in the season where defenses typically lag offenses and that the average will reduce over the year.

2. Its become increasingly difficult to stop any decently talented QB.

For those who are whining and crying about the defense, add a little context to your life, it'll improve things immeasurably

 

[IllegalContact]

That is certainly something we agree on for sure, absolutely no reason to be pessimistic after a 14 pt win.

Hopefully we'll see that good progression throughout the season on D that we saw last yr.

Other than that, I am hoping that the master plan with the safeties works out, and that there is improved play in regards to the pass rush and pass coverage.

I disagree.....the way this defense is playing will not net a playoff win....

people can get as googly eyed as they want over the numbers of the offense and not be worried about the defense, but I will tell you one thing......these kinds of games are not happening in the playoffs.......

people are setting themselves up for the same kind of end result as the last 2 years.

the difference between last year and this year is that last year we used th excuse that the defense was a bunch of young guys and it needs time......doesn't fly now.......the defense just looks slow now.....maybe ron brace will get healthy soon and come back and speed things up a bit

 

[Daigle]

MY post wasn't directed at you, Supafly...sorry...guess I am being obtuse..it's directed at the general tenor of the threads post game..I get home a couple of hours after the game and I find all these ridiculous knee jerk takes on the game I just SAW in person...all I have to say is I didn't hear anyone complaining on the way out the gate. They got 2 sacks off blitzes....the thing was I didn't see much blitzing at all...Wilfork had 2 tackles and 2 pressures...Haynesworth didn't even show up in the box score...the plan seemed to be to cover Gates and keep everything in front of them....Gates had ZERO receptions...find me the post or the thread that even MENTIONS this very important statistic.,..he's a friggin' all pro's all pro for Chrissakes...THAT was obviously the defensive GAME PLAN...I didn't like the lack of pressure BUT ,like I said, looking at the scoreboard on the way out the gate makes one feel a little bit less upset about expectations not met as far as racking up gaudy sacks. I'll say this, if we DID blitz a lot,Gates would have destroyed our soft middle of the secondary...and V Jack would have had an easier time of getting over the top of the defense, which I believe he DID NOT do today.

A 14 point win, I take it and run...every single time...SOMEBODY must know what they're doing.

I agree with alot of the above. The gameplan must have been to keep Gates covered and only allow the short pass to the sides which I saw alot of. I was at the time yelling at the tv that they should pickup those guys.

It worked out and I think Rivers grew impatient and we got the turnovers. So maybe the defence wasnt that bad. They covered one guy a bit moore which may have let others go a bit too much but in the end it worked out.

Although I hope for Haynesworths becoming I have to agree he looked really pale this game. Getting pancaked and just not being a threat at all. Considering how we got players to actually do pass rush I think its just strange how little pressure we get. Its got to be something about the BB mentality of checking the run first because I cant se it any other way. Alot of teams get pressure or atleast have a speed guy beating the LT atleast a couple of times but we dont.

 

[supafly]

I disagree.....the way this defense is playing will not net a playoff win....

people can get as googly eyed as they want over the numbers of the offense and not be worried about the defense, but I will tell you one thing......these kinds of games are not happening in the playoffs.......

people are setting themselves up for the same kind of end result as the last 2 years.

the difference between last year and this year is that last year we used th excuse that the defense was a bunch of young guys and it needs time......doesn't fly now.......the defense just looks slow now.....maybe ron brace will get healthy soon and come back and speed things up a bit

Oh, I am likely in more agreement with you than you realize.

But in the same token, I don't want to be one of those whining nancies either, and am trying to point out the positive aspects and look at it with a optimistic viewpoint. It is early, and there is a changing of schemes with the heavily based 4-3 and subs.

There's good points on both sides of the spectrum, and many good posters have given reasons to both arguments, just since I jumped into the conversation.

Brady FTW and Living in the past have pointed out that it's a changing league, and that many other SB caliber defenses have given up big numbers too. Also the fact that 21 pts is 21 pts, no matter what...and that turnovers are definitely something that should be taken into consideration.

Joker has pointed out that a win is a win, and this one was another double TD win--always a good thing. Very reasonable too.

Deus has pointed out that the defense certainly has reasons to be concerned, and that there were way too many instances where the defense did not do their job good enough. I agree whole-heartedly. I think that they looked like a 5th grade defense many times throughout the game.

I think the only reasonable answer is honestly taking everything into consideration, and looking at it for what it is, and there's truth in every statement. There's also those who pointed out that it may have been more of a specific game planning process to limit Gates and allow the dumpoffs. While there may be some (or alot, I really don't know) truth to that, I also think that the pass coverage looked lousy, and am personally disappointed in McCourty's coverage skill so far. He appeared to have a shoddy pre-season showing of sorts, and hasn't exactly set the world on fire in the first 2 games. But again---the other side of that is that he is often in a good position, and there's a lot of reason to believe that he will improve, and that he learns well from his mistakes. There's also the thought that he's gone against the best the NFL has to offer in some bigger/taller WR's, so again, there's many different ways to look at everything.

At the end of the day I will stand by my opinion, which is that I feel as though that so far the defense has not looked too good. Then again, they've won...and caused some turnovers to boot, so it's really hard to complain or worry as of right now. If they don't improve quickly, and they make Ryan Fitzpatrick look like Joe Montana like I think they might, then we will be continuing to have this conversation all year.

It all comes down to one thing.....thank God for Tom Brady and a potent offense.

While I agree that defensive play like this will NOT get this team to the next level like we had hoped, it is still early, and there are many good opinions and reasoning to take into account.