Curran: For Welker it was about ego, not money

[PatsWickedPissah]

Is Curran going full gossip columnist these days, or what? Oh, the drama!

I just wish we knew Mary's take on all this

 

[upstater1]

Nowhere did I question his fire; this is a clear straw man. What I said is the Pats expect players to always be competing and I think that helps prevent the entitlement we see elsewhere from vets/stars. I also said that making exceptions to such rules/standards doesn't work and that you seemingly expected the Pats to do just that. I stand by those statements and if you want to discuss them feel free.

I don't think that the reactions of fans and a (bad) coach are good indicators of a player's importance. The fact stands that WW had been targeted 6 of his 11 times prior to the drive I pointed to as the turning point. The Pats had just had a failed drive to open the 2nd half followed by the Bills scoring a TD. At this point the Pats were down 14 and hadn't scored since their first drive. Momentum was on the Bills side and the Pats were on their heals. Then the Pats marched 80 yards in 3 mins on the backs of their RBs. The Pats scored 38 points and the Bills 7 after that drive. The RBs combined for 277 total yards and 4 TDs in that game... I'm not saying WW wasn't important, but the RBs were the story that day. Maybe the fact that Gainey didn't understand that is why he's not very good at his job.

The idea I thought was that Wes was beaten out by Edelman in the preseason. If that is an assessment that anyone made, they need to have their heads examined.

By holding to the line of $1 million less for the most productive WR in all of football, you are essentially making a case for yourself as the poster boy for the statement, "Penny wise and pound foolish."

First play of the second half: Tom Brady pass to the left to Wes Welker for 26 yards to the NE46. Tackled by Jairus Byrd.

Read More: Tom Brady pass to the left to Wes Welker for 26 yards to the NE46. Tackled by Jairus Byrd.

Read More: Brady to Welker for 26 yards.He had one series with receptions of 13, 14, 19 yards. Then another 8 and 17. All in the second half. 100 yards. He just opened things up.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

And then Reiss points out that counting incentives (yes, the devil is in the details), the Pats offered more than the Donkeys.

Meaningless unless we know the specific incentives, incentives the Welker camp allegedly say were not achievable.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Yes, because nobody ever lurks a forum without posting. :bricks:

That is not true. Oh wait...

 

[upstater1]

In my view, the only good to come out of this is that it will force the Patriots to go all in for DBs in free agency and to rely on finding WRs in the draft.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

In my view, the only good to come out of this is that it will force the Patriots to go all in for DBs in free agency and to rely on finding WRs in the draft.

that would be a very good thing

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

The idea I thought was that Wes was beaten out by Edelman in the preseason. If that is an assessment that anyone made, they need to have their heads examined.

By holding to the line of $1 million less for the most productive WR in all of football, you are essentially making a case for yourself as the poster boy for the statement, "Penny wise and pound foolish."

First play of the second half: Tom Brady pass to the left to Wes Welker for 26 yards to the NE46. Tackled by Jairus Byrd.

Read More: Tom Brady pass to the left to Wes Welker for 26 yards to the NE46. Tackled by Jairus Byrd.

Read More: Brady to Welker for 26 yards.He had one series with receptions of 13, 14, 19 yards. Then another 8 and 17. All in the second half. 100 yards. He just opened things up.

I believe people are going off the reports that indicated that Edleman had a better camp than Welker. If you don't think that that's the case I have no problem with that. However it appeared to me that your point was Welker shouldn't have to beat out anyone. I disagree with that.

Not worrying about who's the better receiver in 4 years could end up being penny wise pound foolish as well. This was a difficult situation for the Patriots and it didn't really have a right/wrong answer. The Pats spun it into a situation that had two very acceptable outcomes in their opinion, I agree with that, and think it's the best you can really ask for from the organization.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make you right. That 26 yard reception would be great if it wasn't for the fact that a 2 yd run and two incompletions later the Pats punted. Do you honestly think that the game turned on a 26 yard pass after which the Pats punted and the Bills scored? Wes was huge in the series after the one I'm pointing to, hence why I said he was important. However the series after that Gronk caught balls for 13 and 28 yds for a TD. Are you saying that Welker's 46 yards in one series and 129 in the game was more important than Gronk's 41 yards and a TD in one series and 104 in the game? Or how bout Bolden's 148 total yards and TD on the day? Welker's stats weren't the best on the day and he didn't play a primary role in the series that started the Pats rolling.

 

[Metaphors]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the generally accepted timeline of events seems to indicate a much different story than is being portrayed:

- Welker franchised. Signed and expected long-term deal to follow.
- Receives 2yr/$16M offer. Rejects. Feels that is below market.
- No significant progress is made leading up to FA.
- Offer is still 2yr/$16M, but with incentives. Likely closer to 2yr/$10M. Rejects again.
- Pats move on getting a settlement with Amendola. Terms are effectively in place when FA opens.
- Welker enters FA and gets limited offers (Den and Tenn). Tenn offer not considered.
- Welker takes Den offer 2yr/$12M and takes it back to Pats. They either elect not to match or have ended interest entirely.
- Welker signs with Den and Amendola signs with Pats.

May not be precise but is probably in the ballpark. Seems to me that the theme of Welker as the "abused girlfriend finding the courage to leave and living happily ever after" doesn't jibe with the circumstances. Consider:

- Welker and Pats didn't agree on market value. Frank but hardly abusive.
- Welker kept seeking overtures to stay. Where's the courage in that?
- Before FA began, Pats had moved on. Not blindsided or angst-ridden.
- Pats had chance to take him back even after Denver offer. Did they really "lose" him or just let him go? Even to a rival.
- Welker discovers that his market assessment was inflated while the Pats were pretty spot on.
- Pats got a player they expect to build around for the next 5 years.

Doesn't this actually seem more like Welker is playing the boyfriend who doesn't appreciate what he has, overestimates his ability to find someone better, asks for more than his girlfriend is willing to do, complains she isn't doing her part to make the relationship work, walks out, comes back the next day asking if she changed her mind, starts dating her high school rival that looks just like her and treats him the same, comes back to show her off and finds the ex is now dating his younger brother? Am I missing something?

So go ahead and dump on the Pats talent evaluation. Just hold off on the Pats "screw up" and Welker "triumphant escape to Denver" stories.

 

[upstater1]

I believe people are going off the reports that indicated that Edleman had a better camp than Welker. If you don't think that that's the case I have no problem with that. However it appeared to me that your point was Welker shouldn't have to beat out anyone. I disagree with that.

Not worrying about who's the better receiver in 4 years could end up being penny wise pound foolish as well. This was a difficult situation for the Patriots and it didn't really have a right/wrong answer. The Pats spun it into a situation that had two very acceptable outcomes in their opinion, I agree with that, and think it's the best you can really ask for from the organization.

Repeating something over and over doesn't make you right. That 26 yard reception would be great if it wasn't for the fact that a 2 yd run and two incompletions later the Pats punted. Do you honestly think that the game turned on a 26 yard pass after which the Pats punted and the Bills scored? Wes was huge in the series after the one I'm pointing to, hence why I said he was important. However the series after that Gronk caught balls for 13 and 28 yds for a TD. Are you saying that Welker's 46 yards in one series and 129 in the game was more important than Gronk's 41 yards and a TD in one series and 104 in the game? Or how bout Bolden's 148 total yards and TD on the day? Welker's stats weren't the best on the day and he didn't play a primary role in the series that started the Pats rolling.

Brian Waters didn't beat anyone out in training camp. He went into the lineup ASAP. I can't buy this argument, not one bit. Wes Welker was a producer.

As I read more and more comments here, I'm convinced a good number of Patriots fans are in for a very rude awakening. The constant diminsihment of Welker here is astounding.

 

[mgteich]

????
The patriots have used $2M to $3M of this year's cap on Amendola. There is money for another free agent WR, even in addition to Lloyd. Obviously, this is so if Lloyd's option is not picked up.

In my view, the only good to come out of this is that it will force the Patriots to go all in for DBs in free agency and to rely on finding WRs in the draft.

 

[upstater1]

????
The patriots have used $2M to $3M of this year's cap on Amendola. There is money for another free agent WR, even in addition to Lloyd. Obviously, this is so if Lloyd's option is not picked up.

The point is that there are no difference makers available in FA. I wouldn't spend $2 or $3m on Donald Jones.

If they had Wes Welker signed, the Patriots could have made the calculation that they had enough weapons on offense to use the draft choices for either DBs or BPAs. Right now, with no impact wide receivers available in FA, they are compelled to look at young standouts like Allen, Hopkins, Austin and maybe Hunter. This will also compel them to take care of their DB needs in FA.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Brian Waters didn't beat anyone out in training camp. He went into the lineup ASAP. I can't buy this argument, not one bit. Wes Welker was a producer.

As I read more and more comments here, I'm convinced a good number of Patriots fans are in for a very rude awakening. The constant diminsihment of Welker here is astounding.

The feeling I got from the Waters signing was there wasn't anyone to beat out. Did I miss a report of someone having a good camp/pre-season and then getting snubbed for Waters?

We'll see what happens in this upcoming season. I expect the offense to struggle some, but I think by the end of the season it'll still be a top 10 one. This could represent a large drop-off from the record setting ones we're used to seeing, but I'd be surprised if it results in the Pats missing the POs. I'm hopeful that what this will mean in the long run is an offense that might be a bit more dynamic by the POs and one that's built to be dangerous for many years to come. At some point a change was going to happen like it or not and I think how the Pats have handled it is going to make the change as graceful as possible. It felt like they waited too long on the defense back in 08 and that has lead to a somewhat painful reload. I think that getting a good young core of skill players locked up for the foreseeable future will help avoid the same from happening to the offense.

 

[BradyFTW!]

The feeling I got from the Waters signing was there wasn't anyone to beat out. Did I miss a report of someone having a good camp/pre-season and then getting snubbed for Waters?

We'll see what happens in this upcoming season. I expect the offense to struggle some, but I think by the end of the season it'll still be a top 10 one. This could represent a large drop-off from the record setting ones we're used to seeing, but I'd be surprised if it results in the Pats missing the POs. I'm hopeful that what this will mean in the long run is an offense that might be a bit more dynamic by the POs and one that's built to be dangerous for many years to come. At some point a change was going to happen like it or not and I think how the Pats have handled it is going to make the change as graceful as possible. It felt like they waited too long on the defense back in 08 and that has lead to a somewhat painful reload. I think that getting a good young core of skill players locked up for the foreseeable future will help avoid the same from happening to the offense.

Technically, I guess he beat out Dan Connolly, since Koppen was still on the roster at the time, but... yeah. The gulf in talent between those two was enough that it was basically a foregone conclusion.

 

[upstater1]

The feeling I got from the Waters signing was there wasn't anyone to beat out. Did I miss a report of someone having a good camp/pre-season and then getting snubbed for Waters?

We'll see what happens in this upcoming season. I expect the offense to struggle some, but I think by the end of the season it'll still be a top 10 one. This could represent a large drop-off from the record setting ones we're used to seeing, but I'd be surprised if it results in the Pats missing the POs. I'm hopeful that what this will mean in the long run is an offense that might be a bit more dynamic by the POs and one that's built to be dangerous for many years to come. At some point a change was going to happen like it or not and I think how the Pats have handled it is going to make the change as graceful as possible. It felt like they waited too long on the defense back in 08 and that has lead to a somewhat painful reload. I think that getting a good young core of skill players locked up for the foreseeable future will help avoid the same from happening to the offense.

Waters beat Connolly. He beat several others.

This is why I say you have a very low opinion of Welker's worth. The analogy is that Waters > ? whereas Welker needs to compete for a spot against Edelman.

No, Welker is as far ahead of Edelman as Waters was ahead of Connolly and others. If not more.

 

[signbabybrady]

$6m is considerably more than $5m. The deals are not really close. I can't see many players willing to take 16% less in salary unless they're set.

Welker was worth more to the Patriots because he knows the offense and works well with Brady. The Patriots are not going to have the same success at his position without him, and Wes will not have the same success without Brady. But he will be making more money than he would have on the Patriots.

I've stepped away from all of this over the last day, and when I weigh everything, it seems to me that the Patriots made a colossal screw-up. I don't think they believe they did since they had plenty of time to weigh everything, but in the end, they are not going to be as good a team as they could have been without this. $1 million more for Welker is what they needed to spend--we spend $1 million more a year on the Fanene's of the world, the Patriots send guaranteed money to players who are cut in camp. $m is not going to make or break their budget--and for that reason alone, this is a big screw-up.

I expect it will hurt them on the field next year. Now, Welker didn't play much in the opener, and the Patriots offense moved things fine, but there were points during the season when the offense stalled--until they started using Welker. The first Buffalo game is one example. They had a putrid first half. Then they started to feature Welker, and because of that they put up 50 points.

Let me ask you this a month or two ago when we started to think about all this most of us felt his value was higher than what he got. Would you have said at that time that if the difference between our offer and the best offer on the market was 2 mil would you have thought he would leave at the time most of us were thinking 3/27 was probably as low as we could go.

I dont think Wes problem was that our offer was two mil less than Denvers as his problem is they are both 3-5 mil less than he wanted and most in the media and on here thought he would get.

Lastly you say you stepped back with hindsight to examine it yet you dont use the evidence that the hindsight has provided which is the logical time line of events.

1) We had a 10 mil offer for two years.

2)The market was scarce for Wes but he had decided to shop himself.

3) no offers blew the patriots out of the Water. a few teams (Tenn and Denver) came in with offers that were slighly sweeter than the Patriots which obviously they felt was the only way to pry him away from us.

4) While all this was happening The Patriots did their due dilegence in looking for his potential replacement and were to a point in negotiaitions where the difference in what Wes got and what they offered Wes was not the only math to consider. Now they had what (and opinions will vary) amounts to a reasonable replacement at similar guarentees (possibly less), for more years of service, and as much as half the first 2 year cap hit vs paying 2 mil over there set price which based on the market was fair.

 

[upstater1]

Let me ask you this a month or two ago when we started to think about all this most of us felt his value was higher than what he got. Would you have said at that time that if the difference between our offer and the best offer on the market was 2 mil would you have thought he would leave at the time most of us were thinking 3/27 was probably as low as we could go.

I dont think Wes problem was that our offer was two mil less than Denvers as his problem is they are both 3-5 mil less than he wanted and most in the media and on here thought he would get.

Lastly you say you stepped back with hindsight to examine it yet you dont use the evidence that the hindsight has provided which is the logical time line of events.

1) We had a 10 mil offer for two years.

2)The market was scarce for Wes but he had decided to shop himself.

3) no offers blew the patriots out of the Water. a few teams (Tenn and Denver) came in with offers that were slighly sweeter than the Patriots which obviously they felt was the only way to pry him away from us.

4) While all this was happening The Patriots did their due dilegence in looking for his potential replacement and were to a point in negotiaitions where the difference in what Wes got and what they offered Wes was not the only math to consider. Now they had what (and opinions will vary) amounts to a reasonable replacement at similar guarentees (possibly less), for more years of service, and as much as half the first 2 year cap hit vs paying 2 mil over there set price which based on the market was fair.

Welker is a key to the team.

If, after all your assessments are made, you sit there with Amendola replacing Welker, at short money for Welker no less, you need to reassess what you are doing wrong. This is what the Patriots did wrong: they didn't offer Wes say $7 million before he went out there (according to this account). if they had, there'd be no argument here, it would all be on Wes.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Waters beat Connolly. He beat several others.

This is why I say you have a very low opinion of Welker's worth. The analogy is that Waters > ? whereas Welker needs to compete for a spot against Edelman.

No, Welker is as far ahead of Edelman as Waters was ahead of Connolly and others. If not more.

I don't think the analogy is a good one. These situations strike me as similar, but very different when you look at the details. Connolly et al were given a chance to earn a starting job and failed, or at least that's what I remember. Am I wrong here? Was guard not a concern going into that season? Were people not excited about the signing of Waters and hoping he was in good enough shape to start?

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

After 18 posts, you call 'em like you see em'

Anyway......... Meh, the way I figured we overpaid on Welker with the franchise tag, and then offered him a "fair" deal. Look, I love WW, and he get's a TON of catches, but he is also getting old, and has far too many drops in big moments for my liking. That's NOT a top-5 receiver, yet we paid him like one last year. He's not getting any younger either.

So he got but hurt that we only wanted to pay him what we thought he was worth, which as it turns out, wasn't too far off what the Bronco's paid him. It sure was about ego......... Welker's.

On to the Amendola era.

 

[skspikex2]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. At this point, it doesn't matter. Either embrace Amendola and cheer for him on the Patriots or not.

 

[Brady6]

Curran:It was about ego, not money

It wasn't the money; it was the principle | Comcast SportsNet - CSNNE.com


pretty sad if this is how it happened. Wish they had simply not made an offer in FA and said they are moving on . Wouldve been cleaner.

Ever seen Curran's show? He is a tool and this is his toolish opinion..