Brady yelling at OFF. coordinator

[Armchair Quarterback]

Underwood f---ed it up so bad, I can't believe people are debating this. If he ran the proper route he makes the catch or at the bear minimum the defender has to get a hand in to strip the ball away. Then, to compound matters, he doesn't even try to play defender and break up the interception. I mean, ACT LIKE YOU GIVE A CRAP & BREAK UP THE F---ING INTERCEPTION.

If you wanted an example of why he hasn't played much in the three years he's been in the league, you need look no further.

Exactly, he completely gave away position and then made no effort to break it up. He won't be in the league very long with that type of effort.

As far as BOB, the hold me back dance was hilarious, what's he gonna do hit Brady? And BB was telling BOB to stop it not Brady. I don't see where Brady's at fault.

 

[Tunescribe]

Yeah, heaven forbid the OC should chew out his QB when he makes a boneheaded play.

The -best- case scenario for that ball was that TU would have gotten in front of the defender to screen him from the ball, because it was clearly thrown where the defender was able to get to it. Maybe a more experienced receiver contests that ball more, maybe not - remember, the defender also got away with a nice jersey pull to help himself into better position.

It was a lousy pass in an important spot in the game - TB's made a few of them over the years, and we're probably lucky we saw this in game 13 instead of game 17 or later. Having BoB get in his face about careless throws in the red zone is a GOOD THING.

The media circus surrounding it, not so much

Eh, who engenders the most trust in a situation like this -- the perfectionist Hall of Fame quarterback or the spotty journeyman wide receiver? Brady isn't in the habit of throwing games away.

 

[Deus Irae]

Eh, who engenders the most trust in a situation like this -- the perfectionist Hall of Fame quarterback or the spotty journeyman wide receiver? Brady isn't in the habit of throwing games away.

Brady may not be in the habit of throwing games away, but he's throwing red zone picks at a heretofore unheard of rate.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Brady may not be in the habit of throwing games away, but he's throwing red zone picks at a heretofore unheard of rate.

I looked up the stat (red zone INTs) for Brady.
2011- 2 ints
2010-0
2009-2 or 3 Not sure
2007-0
2006-0
2005-3 or 2..not sure
2004-0
2003-1
2002-1
2001-1

This year he threw one to Crow on a tipped pass to Herno and the other one was to Underwood.

 

[Jackson 2]

I looked up the stat (red zone INTs) for Brady.
2011- 2 ints
2010-0
2009-2 or 3 Not sure
2007-0
2006-0
2005-3 or 2..not sure
2004-0
2003-1
2002-1
2001-1

This year he threw one to Crow on a tipped pass to Herno and the other one was to Underwood.

Nice work. I wouldn't describe that rate as "unheard of." And if he throws more before the end of the season, it might be because every time he gets in the red area, he knows: 1) with this defense, he'd better get 7, and 2) with Gosto this year, he can't count on an automatic 3.

 

[Deus Irae]

I looked up the stat (red zone INTs) for Brady.
2011- 2 ints
2010-0
2009-2 or 3 Not sure
2007-0
2006-0
2005-3 or 2..not sure
2004-0
2003-1
2002-1
2001-1

This year he threw one to Crow on a tipped pass to Herno and the other one was to Underwood.

He's got 3 already this year, including one at home, which is the first ever.

Josh Wilson Scores Rare Red Zone Pick on Tom Brady | NBC Washington

 

[NinjaZX6R]

He's got 3 already this year, including one at home, which is the first ever.

Josh Wilson Scores Rare Red Zone Pick on Tom Brady | NBC Washington

Ooh. Looked it up again. You are correct. Which team got the other int? Bills?

 

[robbomango]

I know it’s been gone over at length, just wanted to break it down for a little exorcise. It’s not an attempt to diss underwood on a personal level, he hasn’t been playing long and is being rushed into the mix..

1.MATCH-UP it looked like a good match up Tiquan has 4 inches of height on him, 5 more inches of vetical and a close 40 time, Josh is short and bulky which gave him a physical edge but overall it looked like a good match.

josh 5’9” 189lbs 40 time 4.39 vertical 36.5

tiquan 6’1” 185lbs 40 time 4.41 vertical 41.5

2.THE ROUT It’s not shown below but in the video it shows tom releasing the ball while Tiquan had a lead on the route and was in a position to make a good cut, I’m asuming any tug on the shirt happened on the cut it was hard to see because Josh was behind him at that point. tricky read
As others noted Tiquan faded to the back of the endzone, and drifted about 3 feet off his defender and allowed him to get 1 step ahead inside, only 1 foot needed to be taken off that cut to avoid the step and some physical play possibly. Tiquan looked like he was shying away from the physical nature of the play from start to finish. I don’t think much was needed if the positioning was right.

3.THE INTERCEPTION
A.PHOTO Josh makes a nice undercut and leaps for the ball, Tiq having played to far off the rout needs to extend his arms and bend at the hips to reach the ball, a result of a bad cut.
B.PHOTO shows josh just about to connect with the ball with his left hand on the back side, It clearly shows Tiq was in an ideal spot to fight for the ball, i have no doubt an experienced receiver makes it an incompletion or possibly a catch.
C.PHOTO this image highlights Tiq’s hand on Joshes arm, playing CB was his job at this point.
D.PHOTO This is the most puzzling part of the whole play, Tiq pulls the left arm away with body language signaling “Take the ball it’s yours” he pulls the right arm off in the same manor a split second later. Josh’s ball end of play. Tiq went to the ground with him but that was a last ditched effort.

A higher ball was possible but only slightly, if Tiq can’t pull it down it sails out of the endzone. Overall it looked like a good ball, according to the initial read, A veteran receiver pulls that in, either in Tiq’s position or by running a cleaner rout. If not it’s an incompletion at the very least.

Following the play Tom actually wasn’t to upset, he said “ Tiq you gotta go get it” in frustration and then the 2 were about to engage. BOB set hell fire
brimstone on TB I'm guessing he wanted it higher or thrown away. If it weren't for the lack of experience that would have fallen on the receiver TB was right to take the blame publicly.

My football jargin is lacking sorry, names of routes, overall offensive scheme and coverages would've been nice.

any thoughts or corrections let me know, peace

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I know it’s been gone over at length, just wanted to break it down for a little exorcise. It’s not an attempt to diss underwood on a personal level, he hasn’t been playing long and is being rushed into the mix..

1.MATCH-UP it looked like a good match up Tiquan has 4 inches of height on him, 5 more inches of vetical and a close 40 time, Josh is short and bulky which gave him a physical edge but overall it looked like a good match.

josh 5’9” 189lbs 40 time 4.39 vertical 36.5

tiquan 6’1” 185lbs 40 time 4.41 vertical 41.5

2.THE ROUT It’s not shown below but in the video it shows tom releasing the ball while Tiquan had a lead on the route and was in a position to make a good cut, I’m asuming any tug on the shirt happened on the cut it was hard to see because Josh was behind him at that point. tricky read
As others noted Tiquan faded to the back of the endzone, and drifted about 3 feet off his defender, only 1 foot needed to be taken off that cut and possibly some physical play needed as well. Tiquan looked like he was shying away from the physical nature of the play from start to finish. I don’t think much was needed if the positioning was right.

3.THE INTERCEPTION
A.PHOTO Josh makes a nice undercut and leaps for the ball, Tiq having played to far off the rout needs to extend his arms and bend at the hips to reach the ball, a result of a bad cut.
B.PHOTO shows josh just about to connect with the ball with his left hand on the back side, It clearly shows Tiq was in an ideal spot to fight for the ball, i have no doubt an experienced receiver makes it an incompletion or possibly a catch.
C.PHOTO this image highlights Tiq’s hand on Joshes arm, playing CB was his job at this point.
D.PHOTO This is the most puzzling part of the whole play, Tiq pulls the left arm away with body language signaling “Take the ball it’s yours” he pulls the right arm off in the same manor a split second later. Josh’s ball end of play. Tiq went to the ground with him but that was a last ditched effort.

A higher ball was possible but only slightly, if Tiq can’t pull it down it sails out of the endzone. Overall it looked like a good ball, according to the initial read, A veteran receiver pulls that in, either in Tiq’s position or by running a cleaner rout. If not it’s an incompletion at the very least.

Following the play Tom actually wasn’t to upset, he said “ Tiq you gotta go get it” in frustration and then the 2 were about to engage. BOB set hell fire
brimstone on TB I'm guessing he wanted it higher or thrown away. If it weren't for the lack of experience that would have fallen on the receiver TB was right to take the blame publicly.

My football jargin is lacking sorry, names of routes, overall offensive scheme and coverages would've been nice.

any thoughts or corrections let me know, peace

robb

The key here isn't the play.

The key is situational football.

Late in the 4th, you have the chance to go up two scores.

A tight window in this situation is different than a tight window down in the 1st quarter or down.

Actually, I think the fustration is really more of a product of seemingly not being on the same page at a heightened level AND seeming miscommunication/execution in the red zone.

We had three easy TD's that didn't get executed. Hern/Gronk/Welker were wide open and we came away with six points on three red zone trips.

 

[LivinLovin&Breathin_Brady]

Underwood did screw up the play, I can't disagree with that, in fact Brady showing frustration(like he does nearly every game) was none of BOB's business, so he had no business over there starting crap with Brady. Brady didn't seem that upset about it, he looked to have been complaining and would've likely shut up shortly after, until BOB obviously said something to the Great One that caused him to go off. Belichick was obviously aware of that, more were standing next to Brady trying to get him to let it go, so apparenly BOB was in the wrong and should be fired by the end of the season.

I just can't see the actual footage because all I'm getting is a dang Tim Tebow discussion from the link.

 

[robbomango]

robb

The key here isn't the play.

The key is situational football.

Late in the 4th, you have the chance to go up two scores.

A tight window in this situation is different than a tight window down in the 1st quarter or down.

Actually, I think the fustration is really more of a product of seemingly not being on the same page at a heightened level AND seeming miscommunication/execution in the red zone.

We had three easy TD's that didn't get executed. Hern/Gronk/Welker were wide open and we came away with six points on three red zone trips.

I wasn't addressing the play calling just how it unfolded and what went wrong. Taking a knee would've garnished 3 points but that's in hind sight.

If I had to make a case for it, the play looked designed to give the QB an easy out floating the ball high over the intended receiver's head and going for a field goal.

is sending an RB into a pack of defenders safer than sailing the ball out of play? Maybe to burn some clock that's a better option but thinking over it a bit more, I came to the conclusion giving TB a ball to toss away was just as good. I see your point just looking at it from another perspective.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Underwood did screw up the play, I can't disagree with that, in fact Brady showing frustration(like he does nearly every game) was none of BOB's business, so he had no business over there starting crap with Brady. Brady didn't seem that upset about it, he looked to have been complaining and would've likely shut up shortly after, until BOB obviously said something to the Great One that caused him to go off. Belichick was obviously aware of that, more were standing next to Brady trying to get him to let it go, so apparenly BOB was in the wrong and should be fired by the end of the season.

I just can't see the actual footage because all I'm getting is a dang Tim Tebow discussion from the link.

Brady and Underwood are offensive players.

They play for the offense.

BOB is the offensive Coordinator.

Yeah, it is his business.

 

[vyrago]

I looked up the stat (red zone INTs) for Brady.
2011- 2 ints
2010-0
2009-2 or 3 Not sure
2007-0
2006-0
2005-3 or 2..not sure
2004-0
2003-1
2002-1
2001-1

This year he threw one to Crow on a tipped pass to Herno and the other one was to Underwood.

Yeah, but cranky god wanted to use the word "heretofore," and this was his opportunity.

Can we just end this annoying thread, MODS??

 

[NEP4Life]

<snip>

Nice job!

My takeaway from those photos isn't to blame Underwood, but to observe that Brady is an amazing quarterback and we're lucky to have him. The decision to throw is disputable, but Brady's accuracy is so good he can actually fit the ball into a tiny window where the receiver can make a play on it. The game happens so fast, we sometimes don't get to appreciate how good he really is.

 

[LivinLovin&Breathin_Brady]

When two players are working to correct something in a professional manner or however Brady does it, because he is the leader of this offense and he does this all the time, BOB should be minding his own business and working on how to get BJGE back into the gameplan, not inserting himself in issues he clearly wasn't needed in and making things worse. Now Underwood is gonna screw up another play, because Brady was unable to get his point across.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

I wasn't addressing the play calling just how it unfolded and what went wrong. Taking a knee would've garnished 3 points but that's in hind sight.

If I had to make a case for it, the play looked designed to give the QB an easy out floating the ball high over the intended receiver's head and going for a field goal.

is sending an RB into a pack of defenders safer than sailing the ball out of play? Maybe to burn some clock that's a better option but thinking over it a bit more, I came to the conclusion giving TB a ball to toss away was just as good. I see your point just looking at it from another perspective.

robb

My guess is that's why it became so heated.

As Offensive Coordinator, your play calling is dictated by situational football.

Brady was probably mad at the play. BOB was most likely mad we weren't up two scores.

Throw in a seemingly larger number of not on the same pages and excellent red zone play design that didn't result in a TD and.........

If you think of the hours these guys put in to get good plays, have them work but not executed......it must be fustrating.

Think of it. Hernandez/Gronk/Welker were WIDE open and- SIX POINTS.

 

[robbomango]

robb

My guess is that's why it became so heated.

As Offensive Coordinator, your play calling is dictated by situational football.

Brady was probably mad at the play. BOB was most likely mad we weren't up two scores.

Throw in a seemingly larger number of not on the same pages and excellent red zone play design that didn't result in a TD and.........

If you think of the hours these guys put in to get good plays, have them work but not executed......it must be fustrating.

Think of it. Hernandez/Gronk/Welker were WIDE open and- SIX POINTS.

I know how I felt watching that disaster, like a dagger went into my heart. felt like smashing the TV set also, what happened on the sideline summed up the emotions of 99.9% pats nation most likely.

looking deeper into the play by play answered a lot of questions, I need to do that more often.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Exactly, he completely gave away position and then made no effort to break it up. He won't be in the league very long with that type of effort.

As far as BOB, the hold me back dance was hilarious, what's he gonna do hit Brady? And BB was telling BOB to stop it not Brady. I don't see where Brady's at fault.

Listening to the comments of someone who would know (Mangini) confirmed that for me. He was trying to be diplomatic and stressed while players and coaches get into it more than fans know, given all Brady has accomplished (and he wasn't just talking rings but what he brings all the time which includes what he was doing with the youngster) you just don't go there in that setting and you're lucky Tom is who he is (a team player who will let it go for the greater good). And he stressed that in this organization (BB's) they really frown on the kind of display BOB unleashed in that setting, and he was sure Bill would discuss that with both of them post game... The otherwise idiot panel he was on wanted him to spit it out clearer (they were all pro Brady fwiw) but he just kept going back to you just don't go there (with kind of a been there done that look on his face...).

 

[PonyExpress]

Brady is among the best QBs of all time. He still has the potential to be the best of all time. What separates him from that stature are team victories in the playoffs. A Qb helps to bring about team victories by on field play and by his team leadership. Unfortunately, in the past 4 playoff games the offense has been sub-par (21-12 W vs San Diego, 14-17 L vs NYG, 14-33 L vs Balt, 21-28 L vs Jets).

In terms of on field play, since 2007 Brady has become fixated with passing the ball to the detriment of a balanced attack, an offensive strategy which damages the ability of this team to win big games against quality opponents (in the past 4 playoff games the only game they won was vs SD when they executed a long 4th Q drive running the ball exclusively). BB IMO seems to have enabled this pass-happy pattern by making Brady the de facto OCoordinator.

In terms of leadership, I believe Brady is no longer one of the guys in the sense he was as a younger player. He is the superstar par excellence. That is simply a fact. Just this season, several items have gotten into the press: (1) criticizing his young TEs, (2) his exchange with Underwood, (3) his recent statement that "he is not going to allow 1st and 2nd year players to get in the way of team goals" which may explain the disappearance of Ridley (4) mouthing off to his Qb coach BOB (4) release of Taylor Price, who showed skill this preseason. Either Curran or Reiss commented that "Price and Brady just never clicked from the time Price got here". Compare the development of Price with that of Victor Cruz in NY. Eli Manning seems to develop good young receivers every season. Brees does the same. Rodgers does the same. Roethlisberger does the same.

We want Brady to be the best QB ever, period. To accomplish that he needs to improve his leadership with young players, commit to running the ball as an integral part of this offense, and allow himself to be coached during the game.

BB can help Brady by empowering a real Ocoordinator, whom Brady respects, to coach him. Until last Sunday, I felt that person was not on the staff. I still have my doubts, but BOB showed something and I'm somewhat encouraged by that.

The reason the incident in DC is generating so much interest is that it was a microcosm of all the issues I have outlined above. We observed out in the open some of the problems we have only been able to surmise up to this point. We have to hope that the public attention to the incident will act as a wake up call to the organization, specifically to BB; he must steer the good ship Patriot away from the treacherous rocks of institutional rot. Hopefully he does not "tune out the noise".

If these issues can be addressed promptly, I expect the Patriots to be playing in the SB in February.

 

[NEP4Life]

institutional rot

Yet I think that could have already happened. With the other elite dynasty-era players (Tedy, Rodney, Willie, Sey etc.) and coaches (Charlie and RAC) now gone, the Pats are now the Belichick and Brady show.

Perhaps every player and coach in that organization perceives that they are insignificant bugs, nothing more than a supporting cast while the people in charge (B & B) "tune out the noise" and ballwash each other in their Tuesday meetings.

Maybe that's why things don't seem to "click" the way they used to. Maybe with the Pats dynasty in the distant past, and today's team nothing more than one of a dozen contenders, players figure they'll half-ass it just enough to stay on the team, play out their "value" contract and go get paid on another team that appreciates them.

Or maybe not.