BOB 'Completely Reworking' Pats Offense

[Rob0729]

I think it's patently absurd to compare Mac Jones' 2022 in terms of coaching, organizational stability, overall team talent level and offensive supporting cast to Lawrence's 2021. Or even Justin Fields' entire career.

I agree. Both Fields and Lawrence at least had/have OCs with experience and understood how to run an offense even if they do it poorly. Jones would have killed for that last year.

I am sorry, but just because the Patriots have Belichick doesn't change the fact that they had a historically badly coached offense with no sense of direction and no actual plan. I mean it was so bad that we had a game where both of the Patriots TEs were taken out of the game because they were injured running into their own teammates.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Then Alabama could surely save a ton of money by replacing Saban with a high school coach. Right?

That's college - but even then, Alabama usually has the best players.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Yeah, I'd throw out the Tampa example because to me that's absolutely not just a case of "see, Arians left and they crumbled", there were a ton of factors at play there, not the least of which having a 45 year old QB with a foot out of the league going through a messy divorce. A 40 year old, properly motivated Tom Brady drives that offense to success 10 times out of 10. That to me is a clear example of QB play impacting offensive production, he just wasn't nearly as good as he was in 2020 and 2021 (years when the offense also was unimaginative, also didn't use motion, also didn't use play action and also didn't go for it enough on 4th down).

I also think Daniel Jones' improvement is vastly overstated, he went from a meh QB to an okay QB, it's not like he absolutely flourished, he's just fine and he wasn't terrible before. Of course coaching plays a role in offense performance and QB development, but Trevor Lawrence is an ascending player with elite physical tools, while Mac Jones stagnated and doesn't have the athletic attributes that you can look at and say "boy, there's a ton more performance to be unlocked there with the right coaching" like you did for Lawrence in 2021.

Trajectory matters, and I'm much more confident that Lawrence's 2022 represents a baseline of what we can expect from him going forward than I am to project anything out of Mac Jones, especially considering it's not like Bill O'Brien really has this extensive history of putting together elite offenses in the NFL without Brady and he had Deshaun Watson.

Well said.

We all know coaching matters.... it's that players matter more. As you said, Arians leaving wasn't the sole factor in the Buccs decline. Even with the crappy offense and Bowles, if the Buccaneers o-line was healthy, and Brady was dialed in, they still would have been better. Tom was rushing throws and getting rid of the ball quickly because he was no longer willing and able to take hits behind the line the way used to in years like 2015.

 

[Kasmir]

That's college - but even then, Alabama usually has the best players.

Saban's system and winning record is why Alabama continues to be able to recruit great players.

In college, you know you have forced roster turnover in 2 to 4 years, so it's obvious you have to have a great system to continually find, recruit, develop and coach the best talent to victory.

The NFL is actually not a lot different; rosters turn over in 3 to 5 years. True "franchise" QB's are one of the few exceptions because of the relative longevity of pro-style QB's, but even then the challenge to is to retain them and the other few players capable of long term excellence vs the competition while being able to draft and recruit replacements every year.

So of course it's about the players, but the best NCAA and NFL leaders are great at assembling, coaching, maintaining and refreshing teams of the best players.

 

[Vindicate]

Well said.

We all know coaching matters.... it's that players matter more. As you said, Arians leaving wasn't the sole factor in the Buccs decline. Even with the crappy offense and Bowles, if the Buccaneers o-line was healthy, and Brady was dialed in, they still would have been better. Tom was rushing throws and getting rid of the ball quickly because he was no longer willing and able to take hits behind the line the way used to in years like 2015.

Coaching matters even more when your team is without as much talent or the O-line is going through depth because of injuries. Coaches are supposed to excel at putting their players in position to succeed. This matters most when depth is utilized more (therefore you have to rely less on innate talent), and to lend a hand in creative scheming around deficiencies, such as lacking a run game.

 

[ralmat55]

Trevor Lawrence was a rookie in the worst team in football with the worst coaching staff the league has seen in a while, Mac Jones was a second year player with a team that made the playoffs the year prior and Bill Belichick as HC. I'm sorry, if you believe Judge and Patricia running the offense are enough to say Mac in 2022 was in a comparable situation to Lawrence in 2021, I just completely disagree. It's like all of a sudden Bill Belichick doesn't matter a lick. So funny to see this fanbase throw away 20 years of dogma to twist themselves into this belief that no QB ever had to deal with as bad a situation as Mac Jones did in 2022.

If you put Mac in the 2021 Jaguars, having to throw to climb back into deficits from the jump, with that coaching staff and that surrounding cast, I think he might have spontaneously combusted.

Darrell Bevell was Lawrence’s rookie year OC. He was Patricia’s OC in Detroit. Before that, he was the guy who called the pass Russell Wilson threw that was intercepted by Malcolm Butler. Bevell may not be Josh McDaniels, but he’s an experienced OC. He’s now the QB coach and pass game coordinator for the Dolphins.

Jim Bob Cooter was Lawrence’s rookie passing game coordinator. He is another of Patricia’s Lions OCs. He’s now the OC of the Colts.

My point is Urban Meyer was a dud professional HC, but Lawrence’s rookie year coordinators were a hell of a lot more experienced and credentialed as offensive coaches than Matt Patricia and Joe Judge.

Besides, Lawrence was the 1st overall pick and one of the most ballyhooed QBs in 20 years. Mac Jones was #15 overall. Jones has held his through two years with Lawrence whether you anti-Macabbees want to admit it or not.

 

[Kasmir]

Darrell Bevell was Lawrence’s rookie year OC. He was Patricia’s OC in Detroit. Before that, he was the guy who called the pass Russell Wilson threw that was intercepted by Malcolm Butler. Bevell may not be Josh McDaniels, but he’s an experienced OC. He’s now the QB coach and pass game coordinator for the Dolphins.

Jim Bob Cooter was Lawrence’s rookie passing game coordinator. He is another of Patricia’s Lions OCs. He’s now the OC of the Colts.

My point is Urban Meyer was a dud professional HC, but Lawrence’s rookie year coordinators were a hell of a lot more experienced and credentialed as offensive coaches than Matt Patricia and Joe Judge.

Besides, Lawrence was the 1st overall pick and one of the most ballyhooed QBs in 20 years. Mac Jones was #15 overall. Jones has held his through two years with Lawrence whether you anti-Macabbees want to admit it or not.

The other insane thing is that many folks here are excited about moving up in the draft to replace Mac -- and that after claiming the Mac pick was a failure and observing Zac Wilson and Trey Lance fail. And despite many of these same folks still loving Justin Fields, he has been the worst passer in the league (34th in DVOA in 2022, 32nd in 2021). And even Trevor Lawrence was awful as rookie in 2021. Only Mac was decent.

But you folks want to roll the dice again with a high round QB, despite how likely that is to fail? My guess is that the probability of Mac equaling or exceeding his 2021 performance is far higher than what any rookie QB would likely be able to do.

 

[p8ryts]

The other insane thing is that many folks here are excited about moving up in the draft to replace Mac -- and that after claiming the Mac pick was a failure and observing Zac Wilson and Trey Lance fail. And despite many of these same folks still loving Justin Fields, he has been the worst passer in the league (34th in DVOA in 2022, 32nd in 2021). And even Trevor Lawrence was awful as rookie in 2021. Only Mac was decent.

But you folks want to roll the dice again with a high round QB, despite how likely that is to fail? My guess is that the probability of Mac equaling or exceeding his 2021 performance is far higher than what any rookie QB would likely be able to do.

While all that may be true, I subscribe to the theory that if there is a QB you like you should take him and let the competition win out. You still have a desirable backup in event of injury or pricing to high. If the current QB should have a problem with that then he might not be the answer.

 

[Kasmir]

While all that may be true, I subscribe to the theory that if there is a QB you like you should take him and let the competition win out. You still have a desirable backup in event of injury or pricing to high. If the current QB should have a problem with that then he might not be the answer.

Even at the cost of losing out on drafting one or two other players likely to have impact at other positions of need?

 

[Rob0729]

Darrell Bevell was Lawrence’s rookie year OC. He was Patricia’s OC in Detroit. Before that, he was the guy who called the pass Russell Wilson threw that was intercepted by Malcolm Butler. Bevell may not be Josh McDaniels, but he’s an experienced OC. He’s now the QB coach and pass game coordinator for the Dolphins.

Jim Bob Cooter was Lawrence’s rookie passing game coordinator. He is another of Patricia’s Lions OCs. He’s now the OC of the Colts.

My point is Urban Meyer was a dud professional HC, but Lawrence’s rookie year coordinators were a hell of a lot more experienced and credentialed as offensive coaches than Matt Patricia and Joe Judge.

Besides, Lawrence was the 1st overall pick and one of the most ballyhooed QBs in 20 years. Mac Jones was #15 overall. Jones has held his through two years with Lawrence whether you anti-Macabbees want to admit it or not.

The other insane thing is that many folks here are excited about moving up in the draft to replace Mac -- and that after claiming the Mac pick was a failure and observing Zac Wilson and Trey Lance fail. And despite many of these same folks still loving Justin Fields, he has been the worst passer in the league (34th in DVOA in 2022, 32nd in 2021). And even Trevor Lawrence was awful as rookie in 2021. Only Mac was decent.

But you folks want to roll the dice again with a high round QB, despite how likely that is to fail? My guess is that the probability of Mac equaling or exceeding his 2021 performance is far higher than what any rookie QB would likely be able to do.

It's funny how people will make excuses (justified or not) for other teams' players, but won't give Patriots players the same benefit of the doubt or excuses.

P.S. Not talking about you. I mean others.

 

[p8ryts]

Even at the cost of losing out on drafting one or two other players likely to have impact at other positions of need?

Yes

 

[Bill Lee]

While all that may be true, I subscribe to the theory that if there is a QB you like you should take him and let the competition win out. You still have a desirable backup in event of injury or pricing to high. If the current QB should have a problem with that then he might not be the answer.

I'll be interesting to see if the Pats feel there is such a QB in this year's class, especially given how all of the top four QBs all seem to have noticeable flaws and there are far more than four teams that need QBs. But the Pats do have a history of drafting a 'developmental QB', like Jimmy G, Brisette, etc. And yes, there was that skinny kid from Michigan drafted in the 6th round...

 

[Kasmir]

I'll be interesting to see if the Pats feel there is such a QB in this year's class, especially given how all of the top four QBs all seem to have noticeable flaws and there are far more than four teams that need QBs. But the Pats do have a history of drafting a 'developmental QB', like Jimmy G, Brisette, etc. And yes, there was that skinny kid from Michigan drafted in the 6th round...

I still can't believe they kept that guy as a 4th (!) QB when they had Michael Bishop on the roster, who clearly had much greater upside.

 

[Kasmir]

I don’t want to win in spite of Mac I want a QB who is the reason we can win.
To build around his strengths and avoid his limits and weaknesses.

I think most of us could give a crap about your preference for a QB as long as we win.

 

[Love The Drake]

I think most of us could give a crap about your preference for a QB as long as we win.

You hurt my feelings.
I guess you don’t mind mediocrity.
Some people prefer to improve and innovate.

 

[TomPatriot]

I still can't believe they kept that guy as a 4th (!) QB when they had Michael Bishop on the roster, who clearly had much greater upside.

Bishop was clearly a better prospect than Michigan Man. Just look at his running ability!

 

[Kasmir]

Bishop was clearly a better prospect than Michigan Man. Just look at his running ability!

And he could throw the football a mile, too!

 

[Love The Drake]

And he could throw the football a mile, too!

Let’s be honest the NFL had way less African American QBs at that point.
Maybe Bishop never got a equal opportunity.

 

[Bill Lee]

You hurt my feelings.
I guess you don’t mind mediocrity.
Some people prefer to improve and innovate.

There ya go, big boy, something to console yourself with:

 

[Joker]

Let’s be honest the NFL had way less African American QBs at that point.
Maybe Bishop never got a equal opportunity.

let's be honest...YOU don't know what the eff you blabbing about. FYI, I was AT Patriots camp in the press area covering the Pats when Bishop came into camp in 1999. He got MORE than a fair shot but did NOT take advantage. As a 7th round draft choice sitting behind Drew Bledsoe just WTF kind of "opportunity" should he have had? You do this crap every day here...you make these asshead assertions without a shred of fact to back them up. Bishop played 5 seasons in the CFL...if at any point he showed NFL caliber ability some QB needy team would have signed him., but he was a career BACK-UP in the CFL before retiring.