Bedard's Jacksonville film review - Brady right to call out offense

[Bobsyouruncle]

It is amusing that we constantly hear the Patriots don't pay for past performance; we're told their philosophy is to pay for expected future production.

Yet in this thread, we read that Mankins "earned" his deal, because he "sacrificed his body".

Completely absurd.

The Pats should have projected that the 30-ish Mankins was out of gas, and acted accordingly, just as they should have projected that Welker had plenty left, instead of kneecapping him with an insulting offer.

Recently they've blown it on performance projection for big money talent over and over:

- Ocho (lol)
- Mankins
- Welker

Does Pioli need to return? Dimitroff? What is the answer?

I don't understand, your upset they kept good players? Welker is on the team. Mankins (who just turned 29 when he received his contract) is a good player. Do you really think they should have known he would be injured after never missing a practice in 7 years.

They missed on Ocho but he was certainly not big money with a 3 year 6 million dollar contract. Lloyd makes double that, Holmes makes 5 times that. It's a low WR contract.

 

[aluminum seats]

It happened last week in Jax.

Jacksonville, right--that's what I meant. And too bad it did. Hopefully it won't become a habit.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

As I said in another thread, sit Mankins' ass down now! SOB is nowhere near starting caliber.

You said this twice? I can't believe you weren't banned the first time you said it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

You said this twice? I can't believe you weren't banned the first time you said it.

Why should he be banned for thinking a player isn't up to starting caliber right now?

 

[QB12]

You said this twice? I can't believe you weren't banned the first time you said it.

If you think Mankins has played well this season, you're either: a) blind; b) clueless; or c) Mrs. Mankins.

 

[Brady2Moss]

O-line is our biggest problem going into the playoffs, if Houston wins they should rest Vollmer, Mankins and Connelly.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

O-line is our biggest problem going into the playoffs, if Houston wins they should rest Vollmer, Mankins and Connelly.

So you want Brady killed, eh?

 

[Brady2Moss]

So you want Brady killed, eh?

Rest him too, but I know he's stubborn and will be out there. At least Vollmer needs rest the guy is a Kaczur-esque turnstyle right now okay no ones that bad, but still

 

[Deus Irae]

If you think Mankins has played well this season, you're either: a) blind; b) clueless; or c) Mrs. Mankins.

Given that you claimed he's "nowhere near starting caliber", you shouldn't be calling anyone else clueless or blind.

 

[Sciz]

It is amusing that we constantly hear the Patriots don't pay for past performance; we're told their philosophy is to pay for expected future production.

Yet in this thread, we read that Mankins "earned" his deal, because he "sacrificed his body".

Completely absurd.

The Pats should have projected that the 30-ish Mankins was out of gas, and acted accordingly, just as they should have projected that Welker had plenty left, instead of kneecapping him with an insulting offer.

Recently they've blown it on performance projection for big money talent over and over:

- Ocho (lol)
- Mankins
- Welker

Does Pioli need to return? Dimitroff? What is the answer?

Alright, you tell me which Patriot is going to blow out an ACL next, since you apparently expect the Pats to be able to predict it.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Why should he be banned for thinking a player isn't up to starting caliber right now?

Your detector is broken I presume?

 

[The Boston Patriot]

If you think Mankins has played well this season, you're either: a) blind; b) clueless; or c) Mrs. Mankins.

I prefer d) Intelligent, unlike others who prefer to denigrate a players efforts and have little basis for doing so other than it's their opinion, and we all know that opinions are like armpits, everyone has a couple and some of them stink.

(No, I'm not Mrs. Mankins, thank you.)

 

[QB12]

You have the right to your opinion Mrs. Mankins, however biased it may be.

 

[QB12]

Given that you claimed he's "nowhere near starting caliber", you shouldn't be calling anyone else clueless or blind.

Your opinions have as much weight with me as Charlie Casserly's have with BB. Got it, 'genius?'

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't understand, your upset they kept good players? Welker is on the team. Mankins (who just turned 29 when he received his contract) is a good player. Do you really think they should have known he would be injured after never missing a practice in 7 years.

They missed on Ocho but he was certainly not big money with a 3 year 6 million dollar contract. Lloyd makes double that, Holmes makes 5 times that. It's a low WR contract.

Ocho was on a 3 year $12M contract just like Lloyd only with twice as much bonus money up front...$6M. We carried $20M+ in dead cap this season, which is essentially cutting your losses on mistakes. More than 15% of our adjusted cap. You can't get away with that too often. We also had 3 of our highest 5 contratual non QB talents riding the pine for a total of a seasons worth of lost top tier compensated production. You can't get away with that too often, either.

Frankly after the holdout I'd have tagged and traded the cowboy at peak value rather than pay him at top of the market. He's never played well on the biggest stage. And core players can't be guys who hold out half a season and get rewarded. They've consistently done pretty well in the draft with OLinemen and they have Dante coaching them up. I'd have drafted his replacement. And with the savings comfortably kept Waters around for one more season by offering him the big uptick his prior season had earned him rather than alienating him in March with a proposed pay cut incentive restructure. And kept Koppen around as insurance as he worked his way back.

 

[Deus Irae]

Your opinions have as much weight with me as Charlie Casserly's have with BB. Got it, 'genius?'

Regardless of how much weight you claim my opinion has with you, your comment claiming that Mankins is nowhere near a starting caliber OG was foolish, to put it kindly. It doesn't take genius to figure that one out.

 

[mayoclinic]

Frankly after the holdout I'd have tagged and traded the cowboy at peak value rather than pay him at top of the market. He's never played well on the biggest stage. And core players can't be guys who hold out half a season and get rewarded. They've consistently done pretty well in the draft with OLinemen and they have Dante coaching them up. I'd have drafted his replacement. And with the savings comfortably kept Waters around for one more season by offering him the big uptick his prior season had earned him rather than alienating him in March with a proposed pay cut incentive restructure. And kept Koppen around as insurance as he worked his way back.

I think your timing is a bit off, at least if I understand that you're suggesting that Waters' situation should have been a factor in the decision as to whether to extend Mankins. The Pats gave Mankins is contract on August 10, 2011. They didn't sign Brian Waters until September 4.

I personally agree that the Pats should have traded Mankins at peak value, but I don't know what kind of offers they had. There were rumors that they had Mike Pouncey rated slightly ahead of Nate Solder in the 2011 draft, so if Miami hadn't taken Pouncey at 15 they might well have drafted him at 17 and parted ways with Mankins. Going into training camp in 2011 they had Mankins and Connolly, and little else. The lockout and the prolonged labor dispute made the 2011 offseason somewhat more difficult than most in terms of setting up plans in advance, so there was a bit of a made scramble. I'm guessing some of that may have played a part.

 

[captain stone]

So you want Brady killed, eh?

If Houston wins & Baltimore loses to Cincy (both 1pm games IIRC), then I am sitting Brady's ass down.

Now, if somehow KC looks like they might beat the Donkeys (never gonna happen, but let's pretend),
then I am getting Brady's ass up.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think your timing is a bit off, at least if I understand that you're suggesting that Waters' situation should have been a factor in the decision as to whether to extend Mankins. The Pats gave Mankins is contract on August 10, 2011. They didn't sign Brian Waters until September 4.

I personally agree that the Pats should have traded Mankins at peak value, but I don't know what kind of offers they had. There were rumors that they had Mike Pouncey rated slightly ahead of Nate Solder in the 2011 draft, so if Miami hadn't taken Pouncey at 15 they might well have drafted him at 17 and parted ways with Mankins. Going into training camp in 2011 they had Mankins and Connolly, and little else. The lockout and the prolonged labor dispute made the 2011 offseason somewhat more difficult than most in terms of setting up plans in advance, so there was a bit of a made scramble. I'm guessing some of that may have played a part.

Mankins signed his franchise tag on July 26th - as soon as the lockout ended - unlike his 2010 RFA tender and he'd have played under it and/or been tradable in 2011. They extended him on August 11th. Had they not been in such a rush to attain high cost certainty (as with Hernandez) they might have secured a more favorable team friendly deal.

I'd have preferred they not **** around with Waters last spring given the legit pro bowl season he'd turned in in 2011. $4M should have been their opening salvo in the effort to get him back. Instead they tried to restructure his already way below market remaining season and brought in competition to the point he had little incentive not to hang 'em up. Maybe if Mankins isn't already on the books for $8.5M x 6 they don't make that miscalculation.

Once Mankins held out into the 2010 season he was dead to me from a cap as well as leadership standpoint. Just like Seymour who only actually held out of camp... They got a ton of value out of him in his first 6 seasons. Was going to be hard to thereafter even if he never missed time due to injury because of his contract demands. Then he got hurt which means they never will going forward. Even if he rebounds. He's missed 6 games this season and played poorly in many of the other 9 and he played at less than elite status most of last season on what he now claims was a torn ACL he never showed up on the injury report for.

They still owe him double digit guaranteed money on the wrong side of 30 and are on the hook for dead cap that makes it tough to maneuver for at least another season. While I respect his physical and mental toughness, sometimes it's better for all concerned to be smart and play well. Unless he gives back some of that non guaranteed $$ going forward his career here will end somewhere between what transpired with Seymour or Ty Warren. Talent aside, you can't persistently overpay in cash or against the cap for sub elite production because it will impact your ability to retain elite production elsewhere.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mankins signed his franchise tag on July 26th - as soon as the lockout ended - unlike his 2010 RFA tender and he'd have played under it and/or been tradable in 2011. They extended him on August 11th. Had they not been in such a rush to attain high cost certainty (as with Hernandez) they might have secured a more favorable team friendly deal.

I'd have preferred they not **** around with Waters last spring given the legit pro bowl season he'd turned in in 2011. $4M should have been their opening salvo in the effort to get him back. Instead they tried to restructure his already way below market remaining season and brought in competition to the point he had little incentive not to hang 'em up. Maybe if Mankins isn't already on the books for $8.5M x 6 they don't make that miscalculation.

Once Mankins held out into the 2010 season he was dead to me from a cap as well as leadership standpoint. Just like Seymour who only actually held out of camp... They got a ton of value out of him in his first 6 seasons. Was going to be hard to thereafter even if he never missed time due to injury because of his contract demands. Then he got hurt which means they never will going forward. Even if he rebounds. He's missed 6 games this season and played poorly in many of the other 9 and he played at less than elite status most of last season on what he now claims was a torn ACL he never showed up on the injury report for.

They still owe him double digit guaranteed money on the wrong side of 30 and are on the hook for dead cap that makes it tough to maneuver for at least another season. While I respect his physical and mental toughness, sometimes it's better for all concerned to be smart and play well. Unless he gives back some of that non guaranteed $$ going forward his career here will end somewhere between what transpired with Seymour or Ty Warren. Talent aside, you can't persistently overpay in cash or against the cap for sub elite production because it will impact your ability to retain elite production elsewhere.

I pretty much agree with all of this, though I think Waters isn't exactly blameless in his situation falling apart.

I find it a bit ironic that Mankins is a 2 time teamp captain as a guy who held out and publicly blasted the team's ownership and leadership. Like you, I respect his physical and mental toughness, and I think that adds a lot to the offense. But, like you, he was "dead to me" when he took his hard line stance with the team public, right or wrong. And I never liked his deal from a cap or value perspective.