BB on turning for the ball

[PP2]

The good corners think that they're wide receivers.

Good corners ARE wide receivers.

 

[unoriginal]

another problem with this coaching technique is on underthrown balls -- which do occur!! instead of turning around for an easy INT, it becomes instead a PI penalty.

Yes, it may make more sense, given the state of the league, to be more opportunistic regarding less-than-perfect passes vs. trying to contest the perfect stuff. Then you use jamming and a pass rush to reduce the frequency of perfect stuff.

The trick — and this is where the specific technique stuff AWTE was quoted on comes into play — is that turning to look for the ball when you're not even with the receiver puts you in a bad position not only defending the perfect throw, but also puts you in a bad position for tackling the receiver, so you'd expect more big plays the other way as well.

And given the way our safeties play, fixating on routes in front of them and taking the angles they do, that might mean the opponent takes it to the house untouched.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus RayRay at it again, I see. :bricks:

Since you decided to chime in with the personal shot, I'll put the question to you....

A throw back across the field, and against the QB's power, that was behind the runner, and was not a back shoulder throw. When did that become a good throw?

 

[Ring 6]

A throw back across the field, and against the QB's power, that was behind the runner, and was not a back shoulder throw. When did that become a good throw?

I do find it amusing that I'm supposed to have it out for McCourty, though, given that Zolak's seen what I've seen, although he's been softer on it, and given that Wiggins has seen what I've seen, and given that Law's seen what I've seen, and given that Troy Brown's seen what I've seen, and given that McCourty's acknowledged his struggles (as was posted after an earlier game).

People here disagree, though, so it must be wrong. Devin McCourty must be a Devin McCourty hater.

I was no judging your opinion, simply pointing out that you acted as your opinion was fact in stating it was silly to discuss.
There is clear disagreement, including between you and I, about how McCourty has played.
Taking the words of a player, especially a Patriot player, after a loss as an objective assessment is tenuous at best. If so every Patriot who has ever been interviewed after a loss has acknowledged their struggles. Perhaps that may be correct, which would make McCourty the same as anyone who has played here, and the comments useless.

Are you implying that only your opinion is valid, and others are wasting their time having a different one? I don't think that you are, which is why I pointed out that this is what your comment amounts to.

 

[Deus Irae]

I was no judging your opinion, simply pointing out that you acted as your opinion was fact in stating it was silly to discuss.
There is clear disagreement, including between you and I, about how McCourty has played.

The portion of the discussion you cited was not about how McCourty had played overall. It was about the interceptions:

And his picks were because of poor throws, not good plays, so why bother going there?

Both interceptions were products of bad throws by Fitzpicksix. One was significantly underthrown down the sideline, on a play where McCourty was beaten deep. The other was the throw where Fitzpicksix was throwing from left to right, threw it across the field but in the middle of the field as opposed to getting it over to the sideline, and he threw it behind the receiver.

Taking the words of a player, especially a Patriot player, after a loss as an objective assessment is tenuous at best. If so every Patriot who has ever been interviewed after a loss has acknowledged their struggles. Perhaps that may be correct, which would make McCourty the same as anyone who has played here, and the comments useless.

Why is it that the player's opinion can't be trusted, but I'm supposed to just go along with posters here that disagree with that opinion? Why should I weigh PatsfanBobberino's (hopefully a made up example name) opinion more heavily than that of the player himself? This wasn't an "I've got to play better. We've all got to play better" type of response, after all. He was particularly specific about the failed INTs.

Additionally and, as I've noted multiple times, it's not just McCourty. It's observers like Zolak, Brown and Law, for example.

Are you implying that only your opinion is valid, and others are wasting their time having a different one? I don't think that you are, which is why I pointed out that this is what your comment amounts to.

Again, the portion of my post you quoted was about the interceptions. They were poor throws behind the intended targets, as opposed to great plays by McCourty. The video for both is available on NFL.com.

Lastly I find it interesting that you think I'm implying that only my opinion is valid, when I've named others with the same basic take, such as those above, on multiple occasions, in more than one thread.

 

[BTTA]

Wow. I am amazed and impressed by the amount of defensive back expertise in this thread. It may be the greatest demonstration of expertise in the history of posting. OF COURSE the coaching staff is monitoring this and using all this wisdom. Heck, half the posters are probably coaches. Some even from other teams.

 

[RodThePat]

Wow. I am amazed and impressed by the amount of defensive back expertise in this thread. It may be the greatest demonstration of expertise in the history of posting. OF COURSE the coaching staff is monitoring this and using all this wisdom. Heck, half the posters are probably coaches. Some even from other teams.

What is the point of this post? Are you saying cornerback play has been flawless? There isn't anything you would change about the way our defensive backs have played, technique-wise? I'm sure Belichick has some of the same concerns we all have about these issues, but he'll just try to fix it internally, and obviously will never disclose it to the media.

 

[Ring 6]

The portion of the discussion you cited was not about how McCourty had played overall. It was about the interceptions:



Both interceptions were products of bad throws by Fitzpicksix. One was significantly underthrown down the sideline, on a play where McCourty was beaten deep. The other was the throw where Fitzpicksix was throwing from left to right, threw it across the field but in the middle of the field as opposed to getting it over to the sideline, and he threw it behind the receiver.

McCourty was not beaten on the first Int. QBs make the kind of throw Fitzpatrick made on the second all the time. McCourtys coverage and reaction to the throw were excellent. Again, YOU think they were gifts. That is not fact, but your opinion. My objection was that, stating that an opinion is unworthy of challenge and discussion.

Why is it that the player's opinion can't be trusted, but I'm supposed to just go along with posters here that disagree with that opinion?

I never said you should go along with a posters opinion.
We all know that interview comments in Foxboro have no real value.

Why should I weigh PatsfanBobberino's (hopefully a made up example name) opinion more heavily than that of the player himself? This wasn't an "I've got to play better. We've all got to play better" type of response, after all. He was particularly specific about the failed INTs.

Again, I'm not comparing his comments to a posters, I'm saying that considering the disappointed comments of a player after a tough loss as him self analyzing that he sucks has little if any value.
Last week you dismissed BBs positive comments about McCourty as meaningless. Why the difference?

Additionally and, as I've noted multiple times, it's not just McCourty. It's observers like Zolak, Brown and Law, for example.

Wait, where are we going now? You said it wasn't about his play but the 2 Int throws.
Here, we clearly are crossing into opinion. I am sure you can find many people who have a similar opinion to yours, just as the opposing view point can.

Again, the portion of my post you quoted was about the interceptions. They were poor throws behind the intended targets, as opposed to great plays by McCourty. The video for both is available on NFL.com.

I've commented above. I disagree.

Lastly I find it interesting that you think I'm implying that only my opinion is valid, when I've named others with the same basic take, such as those above, on multiple occasions, in more than one thread.

I'm not implying. You stated your opinion, and then said there is no reason therefore to discuss it.
Perhaps you meant something else, but I read you decided the Ints were undeserving of praise, so no one should bring them up in any positive way.
On its face its weak, because even if the assumption were agreed to, very few Ints are made on great throws anyway.

But, this is really a minor point of contention and probably taking away from the thread, so I'll bow out. I think I made my view clear, and you have as well. If you want the last word, have at it. It was your discussion anyway that I jumped in.

 

[Ring 6]

Wow. I am amazed and impressed by the amount of defensive back expertise in this thread. It may be the greatest demonstration of expertise in the history of posting. OF COURSE the coaching staff is monitoring this and using all this wisdom. Heck, half the posters are probably coaches. Some even from other teams.

It seems you would like the website renamed BB.com, and we would all be viewers without posting priviledges.
Next time you fell someone is qualified to have an opinion please let us all know.

 

[BTTA]

It seems you would like the website renamed BB.com, and we would all be viewers without posting priviledges.
Next time you fell someone is qualified to have an opinion please let us all know.

It isn't the opinions being expressed. It is the certainty with which they are expressed. There's very little curiosity, no interest in dialogue, just throwing opinions out with either explicit or implicit statement that the poster knows more about the subject than every other poster and the coaches. It eliminates conversation, learning, and freedom.

 

[Deus Irae]

McCourty was not beaten on the first Int. QBs make the kind of throw Fitzpatrick made on the second all the time. McCourtys coverage and reaction to the throw were excellent. Again, YOU think they were gifts. That is not fact, but your opinion. My objection was that, stating that an opinion is unworthy of challenge and discussion.

He was beaten, and clearly so. You can call it fact, or opinion, but the tape makes it clear in both cases. In neither case is it even close.

I never said you should go along with a posters opinion.
We all know that interview comments in Foxboro have no real value.

Sure you did. That's the "widely disagreed...." portion. That's meaningless if you aren't saying that I should be going along with it. Many things that are widely disagreed with at one point become abundantly clear later.

As for the comments in Foxboro, I'm not sure where you got that notion. There are times when they should be ignored. There are also times when they're not just spouting Billspeak and are worth listening to. The same is true of the weekly interviews, too.

Again, I'm not comparing his comments to a posters, I'm saying that considering the disappointed comments of a player after a tough loss as him self analyzing that he sucks has little if any value.
Last week you dismissed BBs positive comments about McCourty as meaningless. Why the difference?

But you are comparing him to the comments of the posters:

which is widely disagreed with,

As for the difference, you know the reason. BB doesn't bad mouth his players in public. He talks about the good job they are doing/great effort/etc..., even when they're heading to the unemployment line in a matter of minutes, hours or days.

Wait, where are we going now? You said it wasn't about his play but the 2 Int throws.
Here, we clearly are crossing into opinion. I am sure you can find many people who have a similar opinion to yours, just as the opposing view point can.

No, here we are clearly seeing me point out that I'm not saying it's only my opinion that matters. That's what you accused me of implying, and here I'm showing your accusation to be false.

I'm not implying. You stated your opinion, and then said there is no reason therefore to discuss it.
Perhaps you meant something else, but I read you decided the Ints were undeserving of praise, so no one should bring them up in any positive way.
On its face its weak, because even if the assumption were agreed to, very few Ints are made on great throws anyway.

First, it's not weak at all. People are pointing to the INTs as if they are proof McCourty was getting the job done. They aren't. They were INTs because of poor play by the Bills QB, not because of great play by McCourty. It's an extension of people claiming that McCourty is doing a good job because only "x" number of passes were completed against him, when he was beaten several times on routes where the ball wasn't thrown to his man.

Second, what I actually wrote was

And his picks were because of poor throws, not good plays, so why bother going there?

and that was in response to a claim that McCourty was making plays and that "Ints aren't the only thing that counts at the position" Well, if INTs aren't the only thing that counts, and the INTs he's got are a product of bad throws by the opposing QBs rather than good plays by McCourty, why would that same poster then throw out the INT comparison to last year?

Thus the "why bother going there".

 

[Triumph]

A good QB will see that the DB is not looking for the ball and underthrow to the WR. When the WR tries to comeback for the ball theres contact and PI.

Brady does that all the time.

 

[Triumph]

McCourty will have more PI calls against him vs good QBs if he keeps playing the man only and not looking for the ball. Its too bad, but the NFL has been pretty consistent what constitutes PI and what doesnt.

Dennard had 3 nice pass defenses looking back for the ball. Maybe McCourty will learn from him.

 

[rookBoston]

Regarding OP, building on BB's comments, worth pointing out that the first TD in the Denver game, the DB covering Welker turned and looked at Brady as he pumped. Wes uncovered wide open for an easy TD. Could not have been easier.

 

[Ring 6]

A good QB will see that the DB is not looking for the ball and underthrow to the WR. When the WR tries to comeback for the ball theres contact and PI.

Brady does that all the time.

The DB can't really be looking back for the ball before it is thrown.

 

[Ring 6]

It isn't the opinions being expressed. It is the certainty with which they are expressed. There's very little curiosity, no interest in dialogue, just throwing opinions out with either explicit or implicit statement that the poster knows more about the subject than every other poster and the coaches. It eliminates conversation, learning, and freedom.

Ok, understood. I don't know who you were directing that at. I doubt it was me in this thread, but I've been guilty of it at times, I'm sure.
There is a fine line between having an opinion you are willing to defend, and being opinionated.

 

[Ring 6]

He was beaten, and clearly so. You can call it fact, or opinion, but the tape makes it clear in both cases. In neither case is it even close.



Sure you did. That's the "widely disagreed...." portion. That's meaningless if you aren't saying that I should be going along with it. Many things that are widely disagreed with at one point become abundantly clear later.

As for the comments in Foxboro, I'm not sure where you got that notion. There are times when they should be ignored. There are also times when they're not just spouting Billspeak and are worth listening to. The same is true of the weekly interviews, too.



But you are comparing him to the comments of the posters:



As for the difference, you know the reason. BB doesn't bad mouth his players in public. He talks about the good job they are doing/great effort/etc..., even when they're heading to the unemployment line in a matter of minutes, hours or days.



No, here we are clearly seeing me point out that I'm not saying it's only my opinion that matters. That's what you accused me of implying, and here I'm showing your accusation to be false.



First, it's not weak at all. People are pointing to the INTs as if they are proof McCourty was getting the job done. They aren't. They were INTs because of poor play by the Bills QB, not because of great play by McCourty. It's an extension of people claiming that McCourty is doing a good job because only "x" number of passes were completed against him, when he was beaten several times on routes where the ball wasn't thrown to his man.

Second, what I actually wrote was



and that was in response to a claim that McCourty was making plays and that "Ints aren't the only thing that counts at the position" Well, if INTs aren't the only thing that counts, and the INTs he's got are a product of bad throws by the opposing QBs rather than good plays by McCourty, why would that same poster then throw out the INT comparison to last year?

Thus the "why bother going there".

As I said last word is yours. I'll leave it at that.

 

[captain stone]

McCourty will have more PI calls against him vs good QBs if he keeps playing the man only and not looking for the ball. Its too bad, but the NFL has been pretty consistent what constitutes PI and what doesnt.

Dennard had 3 nice pass defenses looking back for the ball. Maybe McCourty will learn from him.

Unfortunately, Dennard will almost certainly have this "flaw" coached out of him by Josh Boyer
by this time next season.

 

[supafly]

Dennard had 3 nice pass defenses looking back for the ball. Maybe McCourty will learn from him.

I am as excited about the prospect of Dennard as anyone, and have been since day one. I surely hope that he can immediately step in and take over with more reps and the weeks go on.

BUT....the growing folk lore is becoming a bit much too. Dennard was credited with ONE pass breakup....not two....and certainly, definitely not three.

Alfonzo Dennard NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I saw him "in on" two potential passes that he defended, but he only broke up one--and even that one had about a 50/50 chance of being DPI as he was a bit early on his reach of the arm.

Nonetheless, I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer. I think we can all agree that he at least played the ball and provided some pass defense fairly well for limited reps. Hopefully we see a lot more of him, and I think he has a ton of potential.

Let's just keep it real at the same time, that's all. By the end of the week some will be saying that he broke up 5 passes and brought back 2 TD's. I suppose it's the excitement, and I share that same excitement tenfold.

 

[RodThePat]

I am as excited about the prospect of Dennard as anyone, and have been since day one. I surely hope that he can immediately step in and take over with more reps and the weeks go on.

BUT....the growing folk lore is becoming a bit much too. Dennard was credited with ONE pass breakup....not two....and certainly, definitely not three.

Alfonzo Dennard NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

I saw him "in on" two potential passes that he defended, but he only broke up one--and even that one had about a 50/50 chance of being DPI as he was a bit early on his reach of the arm.

Nonetheless, I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer. I think we can all agree that he at least played the ball and provided some pass defense fairly well for limited reps. Hopefully we see a lot more of him, and I think he has a ton of potential.

Let's just keep it real at the same time, that's all. By the end of the week some will be saying that he broke up 5 passes and brought back 2 TD's. I suppose it's the excitement, and I share that same excitement tenfold.

I don't care how many pass breakups he was credited with, he made three plays to prevent would-be catches. That's what matters.