Another big drop by Welker

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

It's not crazy to think that with a healthy Gronk and a healthy AHern, Wes would have been targeted 10% less often or more.

Face it, while we say Brady throws it to the guy who is open, there's shades of gray and he throws it to whomever is "most open". So I bet his % goes up in that case.

I have no issue with reducing Wes's role after re-signing him, and then upgrading from Lloyd or adding a viable 3rd WR option that is better than Edelman to get his workload down.

 

[signbabybrady]

The guy has proven production AND durability. When Gronk, Hernandez, Edleman were on the sideline at various times "little old man" Wes was out there making play after play and getting up like the Terminator after some bonecrushing hits. It's easy in the off season to minimize his on field vallue to the team until you acutally watch a game and are reminded of it again and again and again.

You dont have to talk to me about how key Welker has been this last 5 or 6 years thats not what I am getting at like I said I dont hold the 2 clutch plays against him mainly because his production far outweighs them. But the bottom line is that we invested a lot of money in Gronk and Hernandez last year and with Lloyd you have several options for Brady and you might be more wise to spend the money elsewhere.

 

[Kontradiction]

The guy was the only guy on the team that could consistently get separation when faced with tight man coverage. Why in the hell would anyone want to get rid of him? There are plenty of WR options available in the draft. Another WR doesn't have to come out of FA.

 

[naF staP]

I hate to even imagine a season without Welker. At Brady's stage of his career I would bet he can't either. Welker is a go to guy. Drops, yeah they happen even to the best of receivers just like Int's happen to the best of QBs and bad games happen for all. With as many targets Welker gets he is bound to drop a few. We should worry about Hernandez who seems to have more drops.

I agree, Welker shouldn't be the main focus of Offense but whats the choices? Can't be throwing to Gronk who's hurt on the sidelines. Lloyd drops the ball too and he hasn't been effective like we hoped. Hernandez drops the ball and he is another one who hasn't been as effective when Gronk is out. So yeah, Welker has been the focus, I can see why. He gets open, make a ton of tough catches. What they need is to keep Welker, get a true deep threat and have Lloyd as the #3 receiver. The defense would be spread, Welker with the short to mid field, a deep threat for the deep field, Lloyd/Gronk or Hernandez with the mid field. Can't cover it all, this would spread the field.

So we should be talking about who to get as a deep threat instead of how to get rid of Welker.

 

[naF staP]

Seriously let him walk grab me Wallace Jennings some deep threat thanks.

And this would work? NOPE!! Who takes Welkers spot? You need a slot guy, Welker who's the best in the game at the short to mid field passing game, a deep threat for the mid to deep field and Lloyd could be the middle field guy. Gronk and Hernandez would be icing on the cake. With the Patriots type of manageable offense they run you need threats at all areas of the field. D's can't cover all area's of the field. Did Moss leaving not prove this. I swear, people just don't get this!

 

[ausbacker]

There's no doubt that Welker is a remarkable receiver, with incredible durability, and that he's been one of the most reliable and consistent players on the team over the past 6 years. It's hard to argue against that, or to criticize the player.

But I think it's also hard to deny that Welker has a limited catching radius and zone of effectiveness, and that he has had some key misses in big play situations where he has been the primary target. I suspect that as he gets older, those problems will only increase, as his hand strength subtly diminishes.

Do I think that Welker is phenomenal? Yes. Would I love him to be part of this team? Yes. But am I convinced that making him the primary receiving option in clutch situations is the most likely route to another SB? Probably not.

It's not Welker's fault that Gronk was injured, or Hernandez regressed somewhat this year after his injury. Welker's been a battler and done all that was asked to him. He's not Super Man.

But I do question whether, in a tight cap environment, and with a number of other "move" based receiving options, we might be better off spending on a younger, bigger, more physical receiver. We have enough guys capable of operating effectively in Welker's territory and being reasonable receiving options that we could probably spread a lot of his workload around between Hernandez, Vereen, Edelman, Woodhead and Demps. None would be a Welker, but collectively I'm not sure we would lose that much. But none of those guys can provide the big, physical receiving presence that we need. Only Gronk currently does that, and without him we struggle against more physical teams.

I don't know the answer. I think Welker deserves to be paid, and I'm sure he will continue to produce. But I also expect that he'll continue to have some drops in key situations (as well as making plays in many other key situations) if we continue to rely on him in the clutch the way we have.

I don't know the answer and I'm not arguing either way. It's a hard problem.

I'm finding it difficult to detach my emotional attachment to Welker, his production and his potential cap hit versus the team's apparent shortcomings.

 

[zipster9]

You dont have to talk to me about how key Welker has been this last 5 or 6 years thats not what I am getting at like I said I dont hold the 2 clutch plays against him mainly because his production far outweighs them. But the bottom line is that we invested a lot of money in Gronk and Hernandez last year and with Lloyd you have several options for Brady and you might be more wise to spend the money elsewhere.

Just a note: Welker was the only WR that scored for the Patriots. Throw by
Brady to Lloyd in the end-zone was intercepted. Were was
Hern in the end-zone? How about Branch?

When Gronk or Hern gets hurt, Welker is the go-to. Lloyd is 2nd/3rd at best. Branch was a waste of $$$.

Can you remove Welker in this scenario, and who do you rely on?

 

[Deus Irae]

But I think it's also hard to deny that Welker has a limited catching radius and zone of effectiveness, and that he has had some key misses in big play situations where he has been the primary target. I suspect that as he gets older, those problems will only increase, as his hand strength subtly diminishes.

"Catch radius" is essentially meaningless, and Welker is effective anywhere on the football field. QB throwing angles make less effective, to some degree, if the line of scrimmage is at about the 5 yard line and in, but that will be true of pretty much any shorter receiver.

 

[zipster9]

I'm finding it difficult to detach my emotional attachment to Welker, his production and his potential cap hit versus the team's apparent shortcomings.

I agree. Scoring 13pts in the AFC game is bad, getting shutout in 2nd half (supposedly, BillB's adjustments) is worst.

 

[nekromantique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belichicknumber1

Seriously let him walk grab me Wallace Jennings some deep threat thanks.

And this would work? NOPE!! Who takes Welkers spot? You need a slot guy, Welker who's the best in the game at the short to mid field passing game, a deep threat for the mid to deep field and Lloyd could be the middle field guy. Gronk and Hernandez would be icing on the cake. With the Patriots type of manageable offense they run you need threats at all areas of the field. D's can't cover all area's of the field. Did Moss leaving not prove this. I swear, people just don't get this!

you don't need a slot receiver when you have 2 TEs that control the middle of the field. pats have 1 true outside receiver...which allows the opposing defense to clog the middle and tighten up on the underneath stuff.



Posted from Patsfans.com App for Android

 

[jsull87]

A couple of plays earlier, Welker had made a huge catch and gotten drilled for his troubles. I guess we should just ignore that, though, and act as stupidly as Jets fans, right?

Instead of complaining about Welker, why not question the two much more important questions about that play:

1.) Why is Welker the only player who can be generally be trusted in those spots even after all the offensive additions?

2.) After what happened with Hernandez, post-drilling, earlier in the season, why didn't the team have Welker off the field for a few plays after he got lit up?

I think the answer to question 1 is the answer to question 2.

Welker isn't the only player who can be trusted... Gronk can be trusted but Gronk was out. Edelman was showing signs of being trusted then went to IR.

Due to this we needed Welker in on that important down.

I am by no means a Wes hater but he hasn't done himself any favors with that Drop. I think the way people look at it is you can forgive him dropping those tough ones in traffic because really Wes is such a freak we don't expect him to catch them. unfortunately every reciever/TE/RB in the league would have been scolded for dropping that 3rd down pass from Brady... wide open and right on the money.

In the end it's not the reason we lost, we didn't perform in the big moments all game in a game we (IMO) should have easily won.

 

[zipster9]

I think the answer to question 1 is the answer to question 2.

Welker isn't the only player who can be trusted... Gronk can be trusted but Gronk was out. Edelman was showing signs of being trusted then went to IR.

Due to this we needed Welker in on that important down.

I am by no means a Wes hater but he hasn't done himself any favors with that Drop. I think the way people look at it is you can forgive him dropping those tough ones in traffic because really Wes is such a freak we don't expect him to catch them. unfortunately every reciever/TE/RB in the league would have been scolded for dropping that 3rd down pass from Brady... wide open and right on the money.

In the end it's not the reason we lost, we didn't perform in the big moments all game in a game we (IMO) should have easily won.

It's kinda funny that people throw Welker under the bus. IF the Patriots beat the Ravens, this past Sunday, nobody would blame Welker on that 3rd-down drop. Yet, when the Patriots scored a measly 13pts in the AFC game, they blame him. Aren't there other WRs playing? Where was Branch? Where was Lloyd?

When Lloyd gets hurt and does not play, or Gronk gets hurt and does not play, or Hern gets hurt and does not play, or Branch gets hurt and does not play, Welker has played all 18 games! Which other WR can say that?

 

[Fencer]

Of course every one doesn't get my point. Yes Wes Welker is a great receiver. We would have been no where without him. But he should be a complement in the offense. How many Super Bowls have we won with Wes Welker. None. The teams that win now have big receivers that fight for the ball. The Patriots do not have that. We need more than Wes Welker on this offense or we will never win it all. Sorry if you find it offensive to question a player's worth and disagree with how to change this offense going forward.

When the Patriots had that in Randy Moss they still didn't win the Super Bowl.

Just sayin' ...

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

So Welker's human. OK, he's also paid to be among the best, and HE wants to be paid more reflecting a status as the very best. If you ask for it, then deliver.

I don't care if he's been drilled 100X in a game, he's got to make that uncontested 3rd down catch. His other catches don't amount to a hill of beans now do they?

To me it's abusrd to say - Well, if the Pats had won no one would be throwing Welker, Brady, Hernandez, etc., under the bus. They didn't win! They're paid to win, all the time, not just when it works out.

It's perfectly appropriate to call out Welker for his drop.H e makes that simple easy catch and the Pats have a crack at scoring and to stifle the 2nd half juice of the Ravens. Welkers' contributions to a 12-4 record and home field for the playoffs have zero value now.

To be a star, to ask for the huge $$, you've got to deliver and Welker didn't, Sunday and in the in SB last year.

The Ravens made the plays when it really mattered and thus beat the Pats. Welker had a chance to do the same...

 

[Deus Irae]

So Welker's human. OK, he's also paid to be among the best, and HE wants to be paid more reflecting a status as the very best. If you ask for it, then deliver.

I don't care if he's been drilled 100X in a game, he's got to make that uncontested 3rd down catch. His other catches don't amount to a hill of beans now do they?

To me it's abusrd to say - Well, if the Pats had won no one would be throwing Welker, Brady, Hernandez, etc., under the bus. They didn't win! They're paid to win, all the time, not just when it works out.

It's perfectly appropriate to call out Welker for his drop.H e makes that simple easy catch and the Pats have a crack at scoring and to stifle the 2nd half juice of the Ravens. Welkers' contributions to a 12-4 record and home field for the playoffs have zero value now.

To be a star, to ask for the huge $$, you've got to deliver and Welker didn't, Sunday and in the in SB last year.

The Ravens made the plays when it really mattered and thus beat the Pats. Welker had a chance to do the same...

I assume you're demanding that Brady take a huge pay cut or be released, too, right?

 

[zipster9]

So Welker's human. OK, he's also paid to be among the best, and HE wants to be paid more reflecting a status as the very best. If you ask for it, then deliver.

I don't care if he's been drilled 100X in a game, he's got to make that uncontested 3rd down catch. His other catches don't amount to a hill of beans now do they?

To me it's abusrd to say - Well, if the Pats had won no one would be throwing Welker, Brady, Hernandez, etc., under the bus. They didn't win! They're paid to win, all the time, not just when it works out.

It's perfectly appropriate to call out Welker for his drop.H e makes that simple easy catch and the Pats have a crack at scoring and to stifle the 2nd half juice of the Ravens. Welkers' contributions to a 12-4 record and home field for the playoffs have zero value now.

To be a star, to ask for the huge $$, you've got to deliver and Welker didn't, Sunday and in the in SB last year.

The Ravens made the plays when it really mattered and thus beat the Pats. Welker had a chance to do the same...

Sure, if you want to play that game. Brady is making huge $$. Yet, he failed to lead the Patriots in the AFC game. He threw 2 INTs, and only threw 1 TD.

Is he worth the $$ he is making?

 

[DaBruinz]

At risk of getting attacked by the Welker lovers, let me say this. As long as Wes Welker is the focus of this offense we will never win the SB. Sure he is a talented player, but he still drops a lot of easy passes. Never mind the Super Bowl. If Welker catches that ball in the third quarter at the fifty, the Patriot would likely have scored and one more score would have kept momentum on our side. Welker has dropped an easy pass at least once a game. And Loydd has been a bust as far as I'm concerned. This team had 47 drops this season. That's 3 a game. That is way too many. It's one thing to pad your stats in the regular season with screen passes, but that's not enough in the post-season. We have a team of slot receivers. We need big fast wide receivers that can go downfield and jump and fight for the ball. The receivers we have may be good enough to get us in the post season, but they are not good enough to win it all.

I would offer Welker a 2 year, 10 Million dollar contract. Take it or leave it. He was not worth 9 Million a year. If he wants more let someone else overpay for him. If he goes elsewhere, he will not do as well without Brady and this system.

OK. Flame away.

You, sir, need to step into reality and realize that no one is perfect. Instead of saying WOW, the team had 3 drops a game and making it sound like a HUGE number, why not offer up some comparisons? Or do you not do that because, if you did, it would make that look small..

BTW, you thinking that a player who has 74 receptions for 911 yards is a bust just reinforces the idea that you aren't living in reality or that YOUR expectations are what are flawed. Not the team or it's performance.

 

[DaBruinz]

Of course every one doesn't get my point. Yes Wes Welker is a great receiver. We would have been no where without him. But he should be a complement in the offense. How many Super Bowls have we won with Wes Welker. None. The teams that win now have big receivers that fight for the ball. The Patriots do not have that. We need more than Wes Welker on this offense or we will never win it all. Sorry if you find it offensive to question a player's worth and disagree with how to change this offense going forward.

No one "gets your point" because you don't actually have one that is cogent.

And you are wrong. The teams that have won the Super Bowls have done so with defenses that have held the opposing team in check. And that is what Baltimore did because the Pats game plan was off. And you thinking that the one drop from Welker would have been more of a difference maker than Brady throwing the ball in front of Vereen instead of behind him or so that Lloyd wasn't having to try and pick it up off the carpet on two separate occasions shows that it is your understanding of the offense and your deductions on how to fix things that are the issue.

This team has more than Wes Welker on offense. You clearly don't understand that. They have Hernandez, Lloyd, Vereen, Ridley, and Woodhead who are all very competent receivers in their own right (and contrary to your opinion). You ignoring that fact doesn't change reality.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thank you for giving a worthwhile comment and adding some deep thought to the discussion.

This is what really pi$$e$ me off about this site. I come here and make an observation about the offense and while I understand most people don't want to remove their lips from their favorite players butt, reasonable discussion and disagreement should be the rule of the day. So I make an observation and some DOUCHEBAG comes and makes a disparaging remark. The Patriots losing really bring out the ugly in some people.

So, let me get this straight.

1) You start a new thread about Welker even though there is at least one other thread going on about him.

2) In your OP, you make exacerbating statements with no offering of comparisons.

3) You not only bash Welker, you make the claim that Lloyd is a bust despite him having 74 receptions and 911 yards in his 1st year with the team.

After all that, you expect someone to not call this thread what it is?

You're right. It brings out the ugly in people and you should look in the mirror since your OP was ugly.

 

[DaBruinz]

All reasonable observations but why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't they go after that "big WR" type and keep Welker (if possible under cap)? Branch will be gone and the Pats could cut Lloyd...

You make no sense at all. Why would the Pats cut Lloyd? He's exactly what they were expecting. A complimentary receiver. If your expectations were more than that, maybe you should re-examine your expectations.