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A Wes-less Offense


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Jennings will probably get a bigger contract than Welker, simply due to age. (But not a higher cap hit than Welkers tag)
In any event the difference between the open market contract of Welker and Jennings isn't going to be enough to do much with.

You might be right. And if that's the case, then it isn't worth the exchange.

But every other part of that team was better than we have now, with the exception of TE.
Its hard to argue getting rid of a guy is a good move because we scored 120 fewer points without him with an otherwise more talented team.
Are you really saying you would be happy getting rid of Welker and scoring 120 fewer points?

The goal isn't to simply reduce your points scored, obviously. The goal is to improve the *TEAM*. They are so much better than any other team in the NFL offensively that they have some wiggle room there. They can afford to lose a few points scored per game if the end result is an overall improvement of the entire team. That's a big if, obviously, but that's the premise.

But diminishing the best area of your team (the passing offense) isn't the wisest one.

As I just said, they've got such a huge advantage over the rest of the league offensively that they could afford to have a slightly less awesome offense if the resulting dropoff helped improve the defense enough.

Wes Welkers contract isn't the reason we don't have a dominating defense. There are many other ways to find the 5-7mill cap room he would take up in year one. And crazy to think that 5-7mill would make our D dominant.

I dunno. The Pats' D was pretty good by the end of the year with Talib. If that 7 million was enough to add a game-changing safety, that might just be enough to make the D a top-5 scoring defense.

Huh? We couldn't beat Az, SF at home or Seattle or Baltimore on the road. Losing 1 TD per game would have resulted in losing to the Jets, Bills, and maybe Fins and Jags. Losing 1 TD on offense makes us 10-6 at best, and possibly 8-8.

Well of course you're not taking into account the consequently improving defense. Obviously - well, I hope it's obvious - I'm not arguing that the plan should just be to reduce the scoring output by the offense....and that's it.

What does any of that have to do with Welker? You realize you just tried to argue 5-7 mill spent between a Welker replacement and defense is supposed to turn us into the best defense in the NFL when we just lost a playoff game by watching the mediocre Raven offense go 197 yards on 3 consecutive TD drives without even putting up enough resistenace to make them convert more than 1 first down on the 3 drives combined?
Welker's money doesn't turn that into the best defense in the NFL.

At some point in the near future they're going to have to go on without Welker. If he's going to cost them over $10 million a year, with the pounding he's taken, maybe now is the best time to make a transition. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see how BB plays this.

So hop on your unicorn and fly down to Foxboro.

Why would you say something so stupid as this? What does this statement have to do with anything we're talking about. We were having a nice conversation until you decided to throw this stupidity in there. :mad:
 
The only argument I might buy that jettisoning Welker and hurting the offense slightly is okay is that we would get WRs that while not as productive (less overall points per game) make the offense more versatile so it can't be nearly shutout in those 4-5 games we play.
 
The only argument I might buy that jettisoning Welker and hurting the offense slightly is okay is that we would get WRs that while not as productive (less overall points per game) make the offense more versatile so it can't be nearly shutout in those 4-5 games we play.

Make the Ivanamp move and, essentially, trade Welker for Jennings. Now, have Gronk out for the game against the Ravens.

Please explain to me how Jennings is going to make things different when it's just him, Lloyd and Hernandez as receiving threats.
 
Make the Ivanamp move and, essentially, trade Welker for Jennings. Now, have Gronk out for the game against the Ravens.

Please explain to me how Jennings is going to make things different when it's just him, Lloyd and Hernandez as receiving threats.

Why would I defend a specific trade I'm not condoning?

Jennings isn't going to do be fighting physical coverage or burning corners.
 
Why would you say something so stupid as this? What does this statement have to do with anything we're talking about. We were having a nice conversation until you decided to throw this stupidity in there. :mad:

Because you broke it down as trading Welker for the #1 defense in the NFL.
 
Because you broke it down as trading Welker for the #1 defense in the NFL.

No, not really...the conversation was much more involved than that, and you know it. What I was saying was that I would be okay with worsening the offense if it meant a corresponding improvement in the defense. And I gave the example if the offense lost 7 points a game but the defense improved by 7 points a game, I would be fine with that. Such a scenario would still keep NE in the elite group of offenses, but it would make them the #1 defense in the NFL in terms of points allowed.

My point still remains: we were having a nice conversation until you decided to interject that completely idiotic and useless statement which did nothing to add to the discussion. It was totally uncalled for and yet you chose to throw it in anyway. That's completely on you, Andy.
 
Obviously, the issue is not a seven million dollar hit this year. It is the ability to take a ten million hit in the following two years.

Are you saying that, if Welker signed a 3 year, $27 million dollar deal, for example, the team isn't bright enough to figure out how to make that a $7 million dollar cap hit in year one?
 
ivanvamp said:
Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

Because you broke it down as trading Welker for the #1 defense in the NFL.

No, not really...the conversation was much more involved than that, and you know it. What I was saying was that I would be okay with worsening the offense if it meant a corresponding improvement in the defense. And I gave the example if the offense lost 7 points a game but the defense improved by 7 points a game, I would be fine with that. Such a scenario would still keep NE in the elite group of offenses, but it would make them the #1 defense in the NFL in terms of points allowed.

My point still remains: we were having a nice conversation until you decided to interject that completely idiotic and useless statement which did nothing to add to the discussion. It was totally uncalled for and yet you chose to throw it in anyway. That's completely on you, Andy.

and I felt out was on you for turning a legitimate discussion into a ridiculous fantasy. You really did write a post implying we could get rid of Welker and cash that in for the best d in the NFL.
You even said its a trade you would be glad to make.
Perhaps you were offended by me calling out the silliness of you're argument but I was offended by the silliness of your argument.
That's not on me.


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mgteich said:
Obviously, the issue is not a seven million dollar hit this year. It is the ability to take a ten million hit in the following two years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Irae

Are you saying that, if Welker signed a 3 year, $27 million dollar deal, for example, the team isn't bright enough to figure out how to make that a $7 million dollar cap hit in year one?

No the discussion was 100% about 2013


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I read a few pages of this thread and cannot find one instance where is one is even talking about the OL.

when wes leaves the quick hitters that make brady release time drop to 2.3 second is GONE. the OL now has to protect him more ....i see not 1 guy talking about the cost to improve our OL to do this. Vollmer struggled a bunch in the ravens game...just make him hold his blocks an extra second. Even our LT had some rough outtings this year. brady releasing the ball fast with his connection with wes helped this 2 tackles the most.

I am shocked not 1 person is talking on the effect this will have on the OL. our tackles have to improve or we need to sign better ones .
 
I read a few pages of this thread and cannot find one instance where is one is even talking about the OL.

when wes leaves the quick hitters that make brady release time drop to 2.3 second is GONE. the OL now has to protect him more ....i see not 1 guy talking about the cost to improve our OL to do this. Vollmer struggled a bunch in the ravens game...just make him hold his blocks an extra second. Even our LT had some rough outtings this year. brady releasing the ball fast with his connection with wes helped this 2 tackles the most.

I am shocked not 1 person is talking on the effect this will have on the OL. our tackles have to improve or we need to sign better ones .

Unpopular opinion but I always thought our Oline was the product of Brady and good coaching rather than talent. That is, so long as things are humming along its good but in terms of athletic ability and brute strength it's middle of the pack.

If Dante retired and Brady went out the O-line would be mediocre up the middle. Talentwise it's definitely not top 1/2 as it was rated.
 
I read a few pages of this thread and cannot find one instance where is one is even talking about the OL.

when wes leaves the quick hitters that make brady release time drop to 2.3 second is GONE. the OL now has to protect him more ....i see not 1 guy talking about the cost to improve our OL to do this. Vollmer struggled a bunch in the ravens game...just make him hold his blocks an extra second. Even our LT had some rough outtings this year. brady releasing the ball fast with his connection with wes helped this 2 tackles the most.

I am shocked not 1 person is talking on the effect this will have on the OL. our tackles have to improve or we need to sign better ones .


Didn't make it as far a page two then :)



Losing Welker would also have an impact on the OL. The run game would become more of a mainstay rather than a wrinkle to take advantage of nickel defenses, we'd likely see more base defenses and Brady would need more time in the pocket. Uncertainty over Vollmer, Cannon's inexperience and two oft-injured 30+ Guards would indicate that we should be looking at upgrades there sooner rather than later.
 
I read a few pages of this thread and cannot find one instance where is one is even talking about the OL...

It was mentioned/discussed in a bunch of posts on the first page alone.
 
Is there anyone who wouldn't want Welker for one year for $7M? IMHO, the "real" issue is the effect on caps in future years.

We have much more cap flexibility this year than in the future.

No the discussion was 100% about 2013


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No, not really...the conversation was much more involved than that, and you know it. What I was saying was that I would be okay with worsening the offense if it meant a corresponding improvement in the defense. And I gave the example if the offense lost 7 points a game but the defense improved by 7 points a game, I would be fine with that. Such a scenario would still keep NE in the elite group of offenses, but it would make them the #1 defense in the NFL in terms of points allowed.

This is exactly what I've been saying. I am the biggest Welker fan in the world but we're not talking about 23 year old Moss or some equivalent. We're talking about aging receiver with a lot of wear and tear on him.

People are quick to forget that you don't NEED a top 5 GOAT offense to win. I would much rather have a top 5 offense (of this year) along with a top 5 defense than a far and away #1 offense and a defense in the 20-10 range. It's of course not assured signing a guy instead of Welker on defense will make us top 5 but it's certainly a step forward in the right direction.

And as far as extremes go, I'd take an all time great defense over an all time great offense every day.
 
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