Welcome to PatsFans.com

a LB and two CB's by Pick 69

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mgteich, Apr 12, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    It's been a long time since I was so excited about a draft. This draft has what we need at the spots where we have picks. I am prepared to be disappointed, but the first three rounds could be awesome for the patriots!

    For me, I cannot move my focus beyond linebacker and corner until these needs are taken care of. The reason for that is NOT need. Needs can be met with later picks, free agency or trades. My reason is that the players we need are there.

    FIRST
    Chris Long, Gholston or Harvey (or even Rivers)
    We might need to move up, or not.

    SECOND/TOPTHIRD #62 and #69
    We could have a move up using our #94 if it hasn't already been used.

    Godfrey and King certainly seems doable. Porter might take a minor move. So, two of the three seems very, very possible. Other might put Lee in the mix.

    We might consider moving up for Cason, Flowers, Talib or Groves if #94 is enough to make the deal.

    I suppose, I'd be OK with Williams at 94, but it seems we should be able to do better with an earlier pick. If #94 is still there, I'd be fine with Williams as our THIRD corner picked. Even if Hobbs and Bryant are locks to make the team; no one else is, and I'm not so sure of Bryant.
  2. JoePats

    JoePats Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2006
    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'd like to see 2 CBs and 2 LBs, one being an edge rusher and one an ILB, picked, not including the 6th and 7th round picks.
  3. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'm fine with a 4th-5th prospect at ILB. However, I think that it is a waste of a pick, unless he is a top Ster. Such a player is unlikely to make the squad. We'd rather re-sign Seau.

  4. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I would move up for Long. If BB/ Pioli decided to move up for Goulston, I would be all right with it. Right now I'm on the fence. Harvey is a Tampa-2 DE IMO. Rivers is the best ILB in a very average year. He will be overdrafted by someone just because of position scarcity. IMM he should go in the low 20's.

    Lot's of talented DB's in the second/ third round. I like many of them. I don't like King, who never has played to his talent levels. Can he be "coached up".. Perhaps. I prefer to draft players when I am more sure of their floor, especially in a year with as much talent as '08 appears to have.

    Link for Matrix:
    http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/features/valuechart.html

    I don't think Gosselin has published his top- 100. I think he has just done his top- 5 by position.
  5. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    We absolutely need a playmaker LB witht he first pick. Defense wins Championships.

    OLB or bust. There is very little depth behind AD and Vrabel. If Woods was legit he would have played more in SB
  6. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    That's just plain silly. If there is no LB of value then we simply draft another position. We can invent a value for a player based on perceived need otherwise we are throwing away the value of the pick. Can we trade down to that value? Maybe.
  7. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,338
    Likes Received:
    16
    Ratings:
    +16 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'm not saying it's gonna be #7, but it better be a first rounder whether trade up or down. If there is a cb with the first rounder I'm gonna flip. You can't expect to get a playmaker in the bottom of the second round. LB can no longer be ingored. If you don't have passrushers you can have any cb and they're gonna struggle to cover for over 5 secs
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    I don't see two CB that early. We've more than replaced Gay with Bryant and added depth with whichever one of the other two signings makes the team. I only see room for one more CB.
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    If Rivers is an ILB worthy of being picked in the first round, then he will be high on our board. We are one of the teams for whom an ILB is worth much more than to others.

  10. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    11,111
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +32 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I disagree, BF. Here's the current CB lineup with last contract year:

    2008 Antwain Spann
    2008 Jason Webster
    2008 Fernando Bryant
    2008 Tim Mixon
    2008 Lewis Sanders
    2009 Ellis Hobbs
    2010 Mike Richardson

    That's only 2 guys under contract after this season -- and how many of the whole group can you really consider locks or even near-locks for a roster spot? Meanwhile we're looking at an absolutely terrific CB draft class. I can definitely see room for two picks.
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I agree. How many of this group will make the team? Bryant is a one year patch, who MIGHT play for us longer. THREE draftees could compete for positions. I would not be shocked at all if the 3rd of our draftees beats out every one but Hobbs and Bryant. And yes, I would like to see three CB's in the first three rounds with a 2011 next to their names. Two is fine, but three is better.

    2008 Antwain Spann
    2008 Jason Webster
    2008 Fernando Bryant
    2008 Tim Mixon
    2008 Lewis Sanders
    2009 Ellis Hobbs
    2010 Mike Richardson
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    31,088
    Likes Received:
    29
    Ratings:
    +37 / 2 / -3

    My Jersey:

    #24 Jersey
    That's a good point and CB can clearly be good ST players so we could carry extras there at the expense of another position.

    Also, I remember a year or so ago reading that Hobbs wasn't thrilled with Boston (don't think it was the Patriots, more the big town or something) and while that could change, and I forget the source, my gut feeling says Hobbs won't be here in 2010.

    That would be a serious defensive draft if we took a LB and two DBs by early round 3.
  13. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,677
    Likes Received:
    2
    Ratings:
    +2 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I just hope the Pats don't draft for offense and end up cutting

    most of their draft choices.
  14. SamBamsFan

    SamBamsFan Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I'd rather draft Mayo than Rivers. Rivers would be just another guy in our defense.
  15. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I think they'll probably draft two CB's, but I would be somewhat surprised if they were both selected within the first 69 picks, especially if the Patriots keep their current picks. It's a deep class with a number of good CB's, so I can understand the interest in getting two that early, but that depth at the position should allow them to grab a pretty good CB later in the third, or in the fourth, as well.

    I'm thinking something like one LB and one CB within those first three picks, and an OT, RB, TE, or WR with the other pick.

    OT: The Patriots have seemingly shown more interest in CB's this year, than in any recent year I can remember. It's not just the interviews, and private workouts either, as a bunch of them have been coming in for visits, too.
  16. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,601
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:


    Was driving around yesterday and he was on Kiper's radio show. Has graduated in 3 1/2 years. Sounded like a grounded kid. Asked him how he felt about playing ilb this year after outside earlier in career. He admitted it took him a couple of weeks to get his reads/angles down. Didn't just brag about himself. Visited us a couple of days ago. Mel said he thinks NE will trade down. And, Mayo is a consideration if we fall back into teens.
  17. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,535
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Selecting three CB's within the first three rounds would seem asinine to me. The Patriots have other positions to fill, and areas of future need.
  18. BRiZ

    BRiZ Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    last time i checked it was the CB's and defenses getting beat in the final plays of the SB on both ends. Brady drove down on the Giants D and scored to Moss, the Giants came back and drove on our D and scored to Plaxico.

    We need a corner.

    We need Cromartie.
  19. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I believe the source was an iowa paper when Hobbs was visiting his alma mater after the 2006 season. I think he said the people in NE weren't as friendly as he was used to from the midwest and Texas. Frankly, I don't blame him for feeling underappreciated. He's a very hard working dedicated kid who has played with significant injuries, always putting the team first, and playing very well under the circumstances. I would like the Pats to sign him to a long term deal because he is a good #2 cb in the NFL, and the right type of kid for the locker room. I hope he finally stays healthy and shows the fans what he's truly capable of.
  20. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I believe Dimitroff said when he took over in Atlanta that one of the things he learned from the Pats was to draft for need.

    Obviously the Pats have embraced that philosophy in the 1st rd.

    But there are longterm needs and short term needs.

    Short term needs seem to be cb and youth at ILB. Bryant and Hobson address those to some extent. I found it interesting that BB kept referring to Hiobson as a "young player", which is debatable. But in his mind he may have already addressed "youth at ILB" with that signing.

    Long term needs IMO are Left Tackle, DL, TE and OLB.

    LT because Light is very underpaid for a "pro bowl" LT. Even though his contract runs through 2010, I have a hard time believing there won't be rumblings from his camp in the near future to revisit his deal. Also Brady has been taking alot of hits. DL because Seymour has 2 years left and an injury history, and Wilfork will demand and receive big bucks from someone; TE because Thomas is an unknown and Watson is entering his 5th season; OLB because of Vrabel's age, and the absence of 4th Q pass rush in the last few playoff losses.

    Those long term need positions are occupied by "planet" players, as Parcells described them. "Planet" players are huge, athletic people who are the rarest athletes on the planet. When such players become available, a wise GM snatches them up.

    This philosophy seems to have governed all Patriot 1st rd selections other than Maroney and Meriweather.

    I don't see the Pats drafting a secondary player in rd 1 two years in a row, especially when they are in ideal position to draft a "planet" player. Otherwise, that would make 3 straight years drafting skill positions, and not trench players.

    The planet players who could be available are C. Long, Gholston, Ellis, Clady and (IMO) to a lesser extent Albert or Harvey.

    Those players all answer to long term needs, if Albert can actually play LT at an elite level (which I doubt). and if Harvey can play OLB at an elite level (which I doubt).

    Obviously most of the posters here have already thought of these things, I'm just gathering my own thoughts on the subject.

    I can see the Pats trading for Lito Shepherd on draft day. Was it just coincidence that the Pats targeted Bryant, after he had a good day against them in '06? Shepherd played very well vs Moss in '07, and the Pats no doubt admire him for that.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    19,975
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ratings:
    +28 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I think that I understand long-term needs, and generally agree with your comments.

    Let's look to 2009. We have Hobbs and a 6th rounder who might make the team. Let's look to 2010. We have the same binky and no one else.

    To me, CB is both a short term and a long term need. At corner this year, we are where we were at WR last year. This is the draft to address the corner position. The players are there and there is no better use of 2nd through 4th round draft choices. To my mind, we need to draft three players to expect to get two solid contributers.

    If by short tem, you mean starting or contributing big time this year, then we really don't have ANY short term needs once we re-sign Seau and sign another jag CB to compete with what we have.

    I agree with draftng a "planet" player at #7. If we are indifferent among Gholston, Long and Ellis, then we can wait until #7. Otherwise we need to move up to get our choice.

    I do not agree with looking for a top LT that would be needed in 2010 in case Light holds out. Unless the prospect plays RT, he'd be a waste to me. I certainly see the need for a RT/RG, but the problem is that I don't see that most available after the first round would beat out Kaycur and O'Callahan (two recent middle round draftees). I just don't see us drafting Otoh (sp?) or Clady.

    Obviouly, we will draft the requisite two late round OL's looking for a gem. Lately they haven't even made the practice squad. As we've seen, such a player is unlikely to beat out Hochstein, Yates or Britt.
  22. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2006
    Messages:
    12,304
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +23 / 1 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I don't share as much confidence in Light that you seem to. It has been noted for years that Light can be overmatched by the more athletic/quick defensive ends in the league. If we draft an LT at #7 he would be drafted to start at that position, moving Light over to RT where his limited athleticism is less of a factor. And I'm not sure I agree that a 250 lb linebacker qualifies under the "planet" rule either. Because BB has been reluctant to draft them in the past, I don't think they fit into his definition of the rare 300 lb+ "planet" player. I do think that there are actually a couple of outside linebackers talented enough to be finally be considered in the first round by the Pats this year, but I don't label them as "planet" players in my mind.

  23. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I don't care what people say about weight. Jake Long is no *****, but he sure is Gholston's. Gholston didn't do anything fancy to beat Long, he simply beat him straight up. And he won, easily. It looked like some poor bastard playing D 3 trying to block a D1 pass rusher. Gholston isn't a sure thing, hell no rookie really is. That said, he damn sure is worth a shot which is what the draft is all about. I understand CB fills long term needs, which it will be done in the draft I think. However, IF they were to draft Gholston consider this.

    Suddenly, this old LB core that sucks turns to this. Gholston on the outside, Vrabel who is in the prime of his career, can do it all moves into ILB. This fixes the need and both spots. The next spot in the ILB rotation is Hobson with Bruschi coming off the bench, then you have Adalius Thomas coming off the edge. If that isn't the best possibly 3-4 allignment I dunno what is.

    IMO, I think they're going to grab multiples corners, but I wouldn't be surprised if they called up Carlson, a TE from ND. He knows the system, and he's a decent blocker. I think he'd be a solid late round pick for the Pats.
  24. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,542
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    The problem with doing that is it really doesn't help the team all that much, and you have to pay the kid a **** load. Better to do it with a position of need.
  25. BRiZ

    BRiZ Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Gholston was also playing DE and strickly rushing the passer, in our system as an OLB he will have to drop into coverage and do a variety of things. Gholston is not a superior athlete and this is his major flaw. You ask him to drop into coverage and be athletic and you are in for a surprise, hes not as good as you think. If we were to just line him up at end or olb and tell him to rush the QB every snap, fine he would be a great player, but that isnt gunna happen. I think in a 4-3 or strickly pass rushing scheme he would be a good player, as an outside linebacker in our 3-4 with coverage resposibilities i dont think he would be a good player. The pats are gunna draft a good football player and Gholston has issues, they are not going to be high on him watch. Infact i bet they would take Keith Rivers over him and that isnt the spot he should be going either.

    There are better football players in this draft than Gholston, i would only take Gholston if they were all off the board.
  26. rookBoston

    rookBoston Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    We can easily fit two rookie CBs on this roster, even with the free agents. Our hit rate with FA CBs is less than 50%, and I dont expect more than one or maybe two of Bryant, Webster and Sanders to actually make the team.

    How about this class, we trade down for 3 solid solid CBs, and land a run stopping ILB:

    1/14 CB Mike Jenkins - USF
    2/44 LB Curtis Lofton - Oklahoma
    2/62 CB Antoine Cason - Arizona
    3/69 WR Dexter Jackson - Appalachian
    3/94 CB Jake Ikegwuonu - Wisconsin
    4/129 TE Craig Stevens - Cal
  27. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ratings:
    +12 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I pretty much agree with everything you say except Clady. He could play RT year 1, move Kaczur to RG, and transition to LT when the need arises. I wasn't trying to imply that you or anyoine else didn't understand the Pats' "needs". I was just thinking it through for myself, although maybe I should do that on my own time. It would probably be better to call them "immediate needs" instead of "short term" needs.

    I bet the Pats could probably get Lito Shepherd for their early 3rd rdr. The supposed depth of the cb class could make other teams reluctant to trade a 2nd rdr for Shepherd. Not sure if the Eagles would want to do business with us though after the battle over Moss.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2008
  28. BRiZ

    BRiZ Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    817
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Deffinitly like Jenkins, #2 CB next to Cromartie so if Cro was gone he would be good.

    Lofton or Mayo, either one would be good imo.

    Cason would be amazing there but i doubt he lasts to that spot.

    Dex is a lock.

    Could probably get Ikegwuonu alot lower, hes injury and has other issues.
  29. NePatriots

    NePatriots PatsFans.com Draftnik PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2008
    Messages:
    805
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    I think we can get two great corners in Round 2, one at 62, one with a package of 69/94. (Cason, Godfrey, Flowers would be my faves) With the #7 we need to draft a biggun such as Rivers, Clady, Albert. I still think the best choice is to trade down into the teens and take Rivers/Mayo.
  30. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    3,196
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Based on the players they've been bringing in to visit, I'd say it certainly looks like it will be some combo of LB & CB with at least the first two picks, possibly 3 of the first 4. This is very encouraging.

    However, I'm still not ruling out OL at #7 if they can't move the pick. Would not surprise me to see them grab one of the top guys to upgrade RT.

    The only non-defensive player I'd really like to see them take in the first 3 rounds is Dexter Jackson in the 3rd. Would love that pick a lot.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page