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A couple of Patriots tidbits from Mike Reiss

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Rob0729, Feb 8, 2010.

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  1. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    From his blog:

    If the Pats get a deal done with Wilfork before he is tendered or as late as March after he is tendered, I think a lot of people have an apology due to the Pats.



    Kinda shoots this recent theory that the Pats are cheap argument out of the water.

    Quick-hit thoughts around NFL & Pats - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston
  2. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Patriots have always paid well, right up close to the cap every year. They aren't cheap by any means, but they ARE frugal.
  3. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    They spend their money on having a strong middle class. They just don't always keep the right guys. It happens. C'Mon September.
  4. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    BTW: Love the new avatar you have.. :)
  5. Jackson 2

    Jackson 2 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't try to confuse people with facts.
  6. SanAngeloState

    SanAngeloState Banned

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    Would they want to spend big money on a guarantee if there's not going to be a season in 2011?

    I think they tag and trade him and they don't owe anyone an apology for it.

    It's business, nothing personal. :rocker:
  7. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    so I guess the pats aren't going to sign brady when his contract is up at the end of this year? or will they actually give him 30M up front to sit around in 2011? given that he is the player rep and all
  8. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    feel free to apologize to whomever you like.....but don't talk for others
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  9. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've posted the breakdown about the money spent in the past. I don't think they've been cheap, although the notion that they spend to the cap in actual dollars is not true, but they are a top 5 income generating team and only a top 10 spending team.

    That doesn't make them cheap, but it does give at least some ammunition to those who think that they should be spending more.
  10. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    You've also been proven wrong over and over when you've tried to argue it.

    Stop trying to defend people who are wrong, while at the same time saying you believe the exact opposite.
  11. tunafish

    tunafish Rookie

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    Actually, Deus is right. Last year (2008), the pats had the 2nd highest revenue in the league, at 302 million dollars. In that same year, they spent the 3rd lowest amount of money in the entire league on their players. This past year they spent the 9th lowest amount of money on players, and i'd imagine their revenue was either the same or higher. Kraft happens to be extraordinarily cheap. Facts is facts.

    And if you want to check these facts...:
    http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2008
    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/30/football-values-09_NFL-Team-Valuations_Revenue.html

    And as a bonus, a local team whose owner is willing to do what it takes (in the patriots case that would be to resign wilfork immediately):
    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/32/basketball-values-09_Boston-Celtics_326173.html
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  12. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The "Pats are cheap" theory is recent? I remember this going back to 2005-2006.
  13. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, 2005-2006 since the Pats came off of back to back Super Bowls in 2003-2004, the spin was the Pats were all about value. Now that they have had a disapointing season and it has been a half a decade since the last Super Bowl win, it is that they are cheap. What people thought was a plus during the Super Bowl years and shortly after is now considered a failure by Belichick because the natives are restless.
  14. ctpatsfan77

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    Of course, that's ignoring the fact that in 2007 the Patriots spent the second-highest total in the league. . . .
  15. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Salary Cap. Learn it or troll elsewhere.
  16. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your response is a great one, because this sort of spending breakdown is something that you have to take in an aggregate to get any real feel for what's going on. Lump sum bonuses and the like make a year-by-year approach a lousy way to evaluate. We were actually just going over this about 2 weeks ago:

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/317666-my-early-perception-patriots-3rd-best-afc-east.html#post1709674
  17. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But the fact of the matter is the Pats had little cap room in the cap to have a high payroll the last two years. They might have had a higher payroll last season if Peppers took Belichick's advice and signed the franchise tag since Belichick stated publically that he wasn't going to trade for him until he did and by the time he did it was too late to make a trade. It is very conceivable the Pats could have traded for Peppers and increased their actual payroll last year by $15-20 million. A trade for Peppers could have easily pushed their payroll into the top 15.

    The one thing the Pats won't do is just spend money of free agents because they should spend money. There actually has to be free agents they want to sign them. I don't think the Pats are cheap at all. When Belichick wants to spend money on players, Kraft seems to open his wallet. But unlike a Daniel Snyder, Belichick isn't about collecting names.

    BTW, it is conceivable if both Brady and Wilfork get deals that the Pats have the actual highest payroll in the league this year.
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  18. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    Last edited: Feb 8, 2010
  19. Nikolai

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    This...no one had issues when the frugal route was working.
  20. tuckeverlasting

    tuckeverlasting Rookie

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    kraft just signs the checks.
  21. Brarrell

    Brarrell Rookie

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    Every team is given 125 mil that's the cap and maybe the Pats spend to the cap or near it but its the BONUS money that they won't spend which either retains your own good players or be a player in FA. When your the 3rd wealthiest team in the league with the 2nd highest ticket prices in the league your fans deserve better. I also so the Curran quote about spending the last five years and I think that's strictly the cap I want to know how much bonus money was spent the last 4 years.
  22. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    So what you are saying is that you have no idea how the cap works? Do you think bonus money is free money?

    Bonus money counts against the cap, it is simply prorated over the length of the contract. So a $30M bonus on a 5 year contract for example is $30M cash TODAY, but $6M against the cap each year. Whether the Patriots spend that $30M as $6M chunks in different areas each of the 5 years or give it to a single player in the form of a Bonus is a strategical decision.

    Example,

    Team A: $6M left on the cap, signs a player with a $30M bonus to 5 year contract

    Team B: $6M left on the cap, pushes it to future years or spends it on a midlevel player or 2.

    Team A in this specific year spent $24M MORE in cash, however over the long term they both spent the same exact $24M more than that year's specific cap.

    Spending OVER the cap this year, means you either borrowed it from past years or future years. Spending to the cap every year means that you spend the maximum allowed over the longterm and it is IMPOSSIBLE to spend more.

    If the Patriots let extra cap money die, then you might have a point. They don't, they use it or push it forward.

    I did provide a link to some very good discussion on the topic, it's a shame you couldn't be bothered to read it.
  23. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Glad someone said this.
  24. tricktak

    tricktak Banned

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    I have a feeling the pats will spend pretty big this offseason. obviously they're #1 need is a pass rusher. shawne merriman is a free agent and would fit in perfectly with this team. He's a vocal leader on defense, can still be one of the best pass rushers in the league even though he had a down year in 09 and for that reason he could be had for a two or three year deal. I also think they will get a pass rusher in the draft, a guy like brandon graham would make a lot of sense. I'm one of those peopl who think antonio pierce would fit in well with this team. He's an upgrade from guyton on the inside and since he's there with mayo he want be asked to do as much as he had to with the giants. they need a #2 receiver and running back too, I got off the maroney bandwagon a long time ago. Jonathan dwyer is a back I'd love to see them draft. Kevin Walter is a free agent would be a great fit across from Moss.
  25. FreeTedWilliams

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    I think that this year is the year that will make or break this argument (that the Pats are cheap) for evah.

    Assuming that the NFL and the NFLPA does not come to a new labor (or labour for our British cousins) agreement before the March 5th deadline. Then the Pats are looking at an uncapped year, where they can go out and basically buy all the talent they want. Of course you have to think that someday the cap will be back, so you can't go nuts.

    Also you have to consider that most, if not all of the teams that the Pats will be chasing next year are serverly limited in their abilities to sign free agents via the "final 8" provisions of the uncapped year in the CBA. It takes the free spending Cowboys, Jets out of any Free Agent's negotiations (Colts, Saints, Chargers, Vikings, Ravens, & Arizona round out the "Final 8". So if your the Pats and the JEts, Chargers, Ravens, and Colts are all hampered by this rule, I would go out and sign a few Free Agents because a) they can and b) the price might be lower than you thinks this off-season with these restrictions.

    Now if the Pats do this, and re-signs Vince and extends Brady, then the cheap talk goes out the window. If they sign no one, and make Vince, Mankins, and the Ghost all play at the tender amounts, then the "cheap" label will affix itself permanently to Kraft's forehead.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  26. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Rookie

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    I disagree that an uncapped year definitely proves whether a team is "cheap" or not. What big-time free agents are going to take 1 year deals or heavily front-loaded deals? Isn't a bonus is still going to be prorated for future capped years in a multi-year deal?

    It's still up to players to accept deals, and we are in for at most 1 year without a cap. They can use it to their advantage in and restructure, and front load as many contracts as possible but it's not an open buying season where they can just throw out all value models and overpay for anyone they want.

    Also don't forget that if they break their value model for an uncapped year and overpay for some FAs or specific players, that will alienate other players on the roster and/or make them wonder why they shouldn't get a raise etc...
  27. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    The 49ers of the mid 90's did this, robbing Peter to pay Paul and ended up in cap hell for several years with dead money (money paid out in bonuses to players no longer on the roster that counted against the cap) limiting what they could spend and stay under the cap.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  28. AndyJohnson

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    One explanation for not spending to the cap every season is that it is necessary to leave a cushion, which doesnt always get used.
    I don't know what is in their heads, so its only a theory, but I know in the first half of the decade, there was the instance where we had to cut Milloy to get under the cap (or more aptly, leave room for in season additions and ps) and there was another season where we pretty much ran out of room and couldn't bring in any players later in the year, or at least got very close to that.
    Since then, they have left some money on the table, but I think that its more a result of being safe with cushion than not wanting to spend it.
  29. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are other considerations too. There is a choice between using cap money by signing players with large signing bonusses vs players with small or no signing bonus. That will make a large difference in actual dollars spent.
    One could argue its a sign of frugality to not sign a bunch of players under the cap with big signing bonusses, but one could also argue that it is a more sound long term strategy to avoid doing that.
    Ultimately, the team that paid 150mill more will pay much less at some point because that excess was pushed off into the future. (Assuming there is a cap) It can be a function of long term cap management vs short term cap management as much as of a budget of current year spending.
  30. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    By the way, did I misread that? It looks like $50 mill difference not $150 mill. Half of that is probably attributable to the Roy Williams debacle itself.
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