A Couple Of Modest Proposals: move McCourty back to CB, or franchise Talib

[mgteich]

Yes, there are many options. The team must choose what to do with them.

We are in the very first stages of the offseason, before free agency starts. This is when we fight out about our tags and about who we re-signed, and sometimes some other additions (like Armstead).

Next we will find out who we add in the first couple of weeks of free agency, the first rush, usually of top free agents.
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We will know much, much more by the end of March.
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However, these facts do NOT make our problems in the secondary and at wide receiver less severe.

That's really what it comes down to, pure speculation, just like the majority of our comments and thoughts in certain areas.

One way or another, I think that there will be plenty of options, so it shouldn't be this much of a negative in the middle of February only 2 weeks removed from the SB.

If the outlook is this dreary in August, that's a whole other story.

 

[patfanken]

A couple of points about moving McCourty back to CB:



1. As MoLewisRocks said one safety has to QB the secondary. This quote further emphasizes this point.



More than anything else this is why I want to keep McCourty at FS.

2. Don't underestimate Doc Holiday's point about having a safety that can play CB at a moderate to high level (depending on your take of McCourty at CB. If you bring in another FS who you are comfortable with (aka Ed Reed) the ability to send 5 rushers AND have McCourty, Talib (or other CB1) and Dennard on the offenses top 3 receiving threats is a huge advantage. Rarely do teams have 4 quality receiving threats. We did last year and they were rarely all on the field together, healthy.

3. We have McCourty on a rookie contract for 2 more years. It does buy us some time (maybe enough where we can restructure Mankins to a smaller yearly cap hit) before we pay a CB top dollar but it's not a long term solution. Eventually we will have to pay or every year we live with rookie contract players or reclamation project vets / jags.

Nothing wrong with your logic, but for me it comes down to this. You either keep him at safety and need CB's or you move him to CB and need Safeties. It just so happens that THIS year one of the deepest areas of available talent in both the draft and FA is the Safety position, while the CB position is both thin and more expensive. Mayock currently has only one CB rated in the first round

Perhaps unlike most, I believe McCourty can be successful at either position, and I have no problem if they keep him at safety. But I'm just looking at WHERE the talent is, and right now it looks like it would be cheaper and easier to get help at safety than CB.
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[DarrylS]

I think you need to "stabliize" the secondary, continuing to move in new DB's at the expense of veteran DB's has a negative effect.. sign Talib, leave McCourty where he is.. hope Dennard will be back and proceed from there by adding depth.

Early in the season our secondary totaled less than 5 years experience.. that is not a good thing.

Rotating in new players who may or may not be able to adapt to this system is a bad idea.. and only adds to the overall d backfield confusion.

 

[goheels22002]

Or....

Keep McCourty at safety
Sign a CB1 (Talib or other)
Re-sign Arrington
Draft Safety in round 1

Just doing that gives you plenty of safeties (rookie replaces Chung) and sets up the team at CB1, CB2 and CB3/CB4. At that point, they can bring in the annual parade of CB3/CB4 wannabes and find one that sticks, while hoping that Dowling isn't already a broken china doll and also has some game left in him.

There's no need to franchise Talib. In fact, I'll look at any decision to franchise Talib over Welker as evidence that the Jets have gotten to the Patriots brain trust with some sort of mind altering (and dumbing down) substance.

In the four games that Talib played, it seemed like the Patriots have a good group of safeties in Wilson, McCourty and Gregory. The main issue is the pass rush and depth at CB.

The 2013 draft should be another defense-centric one with a pass rusher and CB in whatever order brings the best prospects. A consistent pass rush will make the secondary better and cut down on the number of 20-yard-plus receptions.

In free agency, I'm a huge believer in getting young and fast on defense, so I'd stay away from the big-name geezers who are unlikely to be there late in the season and in the playoffs. The Pats should make a serious offer to Talib, but not a franchise tag. He should choose to be a Patriot which gives him a better chance to get on board with the work it takes to excel.

 

[Greg A. Bedard]

I claimed in my initial post on the last page to "keep in mind that Bedard and SMY reported that Belichick's intentions were to keep McCourty at safety from TC on."

Obviously I highly doubt that Belichick himself would tell us what their actual plans were or would be in the future, so I think you are shooting the messenger.

I never claimed that Belichick said this. Not even close.

We get it that you are saying that the report was speculative, as the majority are. There wasn't any concrete evidence that Belichick wanted to keep him there, only a report from 2 beat writers who claimed that is what the organization wanted to do.

They wanted to move him to safety. Trust me on this. The biggest reason why they couldn't was because Dowling kept getting hurt during the offseason.

 

[Deus Irae]

In the four games that Talib played, it seemed like the Patriots have a good group of safeties in Wilson, McCourty and Gregory. The main issue is the pass rush and depth at CB.

We have a significant disagreement about this team's safety play.

 

[JackBauer]

They wanted to move him to safety. Trust me on this. The biggest reason why they couldn't was because Dowling kept getting hurt during the offseason.

Any idea on whether the organization views Wilson as (potentially) a starting-caliber safety?

 

[supafly]

They wanted to move him to safety. Trust me on this. The biggest reason why they couldn't was because Dowling kept getting hurt during the offseason.

Thank you for the response. Personally, I did not doubt you.

I was simply responding to a poster who was giving me the business for jumping to conclusions based on "what a reporter claimed." I will agree with him that we have to try and use our better judgment when assessing many stories and reports, so he does have somewhat of a point there.

In this instance and many others I have also learned that when the writing is on the wall from someone in the know (and others who agreed with you such as SMY and the NESN stories), often times those reports are true.

Again, thank you for clearing that up, and thank you for your excellent contributions for keeping us informed.

 

[Greg A. Bedard]

I don't right now, but I am trying to find out.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don't right now, but I am trying to find out.

In a related question, being that it's a deep safety draft, what do you think the chances are that the team will try to slide Wilson into the "star" role should Arrington walk?

 

[Brady6]

We are short 3 corners and a safety.

Perhaps we need to consider moving McCourty back to corner and be short 2 corners and 2 safeties.

This plan requires less resources than others. For example, we could re-sign Arrington and Cole (and/or their upgrades) and also add a couple of safeties (ideally one from free agency and one from the draft.

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Or we can simply decide to franchise Talib.

Never franchise Talib, at best I'd transition him.

At this strange of the offseason it more about adding quality personnel and then figuring out where they fit best.

 

[Triumph]

Never franchise Talib, at best I'd transition him.

At this strange of the offseason it more about adding quality personnel and then figuring out where they fit best.

Unless the rules have changed in the new CBA, if you transition Talib and a team offers him a contract that the Pats do not want to match, Talib walks and the Pats receive nothing in compensation. A 4th round pick down the drain for a few games played in 2012.

 

[supafly]

Unless the rules have changed in the new CBA, if you transition Talib and a team offers him a contract that the Pats do not want to match, Talib walks and the Pats receive nothing in compensation. A 4th round pick down the drain for a few games played in 2012.

I think some teams would look elsewhere if the transition tag were in play. There may still be a team that offers him something still no doubt about it, but I would have to think that it'd cut down on some of the shoppers right off the bat. The thing I don't like about using the transition tag is that it would cost a 9 million dollar cap hit to keep him. That just isn't worth it to me.

I still think they may receive a comp pick though considering it'd still be a FA loss, although I could be wrong.

As far as the lost 4th rd pick, we swapped for a 7th, so there's already a good chance that the 2012 season gamble of Talib will end up being a swap for 4th/7th as it is, nothing that really can be done about it unless he stays for reasonable money. The only way it would have worked out is if we had won the SB or Talib agreed to stay longer term.

Belichick should acquire at least one additional pick though, which would give us 6 still. It's probably not that big of a deal in the big picture as long as that happens.

 

[RayClay]

We are short 3 corners and a safety.

Perhaps we need to consider moving McCourty back to corner and be short 2 corners and 2 safeties.

This plan requires less resources than others. For example, we could re-sign Arrington and Cole (and/or their upgrades) and also add a couple of safeties (ideally one from free agency and one from the draft.

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Or we can simply decide to franchise Talib.

You weaken two positions by moving McCourty IMO. Get cornerbacks. McCourty is much better at safety. He can be used in emergency.

 

[RayClay]

We currently have
Dennard (waiting for prIson sentence)
Dowling (waiting for this year's injuries)
and no one else except Practice Squad quality players.
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I don't understand why most of you seem to be fine with keeping McCourty at FS, and simply hoping that we will be able to field an adequate set of corners.

They'll obviously move Mc back if they have to. It's February, are we going to assume they are forced into something at this point?

Who thought a 7th rounder and somebody who got the boot at tampa would look so much better, combined with the McCourty move? We had a 4th rounder and an UDFA play well enough to win a superbowl before, give our front office some credit.

Remember, this whole mess of a secondary started because a talented first rounder turned out to be such a meat head he couldn't be tolerated. They'll draft and scout vets and bring a bunch of guys in. No saying Dowling can't come back, he doesn't have anything life threatening that i know of. Same for Dennard and Talib, they aren't necessarily out of the mix.

My point is, BB is unlikely to give up the stability and leadership he's gained, when he can try to find a diamond in the rough in camp and the first few games, if that's what he needs. I don't think McCourty will ever be more than an average CB, if that. Just my opinion based on the way he moves. I do think his intelligence and work ethic could make him an outstanding safety.

Just my impression.

I wouldn't mind drafting a safety at all, either. Lot's of ways to build, look at great teams where a safety is dominant.

 

[supafly]

They'll obviously move Mc back if they have to. It's February, are we going to assume they are forced into something at this point?

Who thought a 7th rounder and somebody who got the boot at tampa would look so much better, combined with the McCourty move? We had a 4th rounder and an UDFA play well enough to win a superbowl before, give our front office some credit.

Remember, this whole mess of a secondary started because a talented first rounder turned out to be such a meat head he couldn't be tolerated. They'll draft and scout vets and bring a bunch of guys in. No saying Dowling can't come back, he doesn't have anything life threatening that i know of. Same for Dennard and Talib, they aren't necessarily out of the mix.

My point is, BB is unlikely to give up the stability and leadership he's gained, when he can try to find a diamond in the rough in camp and the first few games, if that's what he needs. I don't think McCourty will ever be more than an average CB, if that. Just my opinion based on the way he moves. I do think his intelligence and work ethic could make him an outstanding safety.

Just my impression.

I wouldn't mind drafting a safety at all, either. Lot's of ways to build, look at great teams where a safety is dominant.

I agree with what you're saying. It's February. The season just ended and the secondary was decently weak then. Of course the situation is going to look much worse when all we've had so far is the possibility of losing some free agents.

As free agency and the draft move on, the position will be addressed just like any other situation where we lack depth (and sufficient talent).

The WR situation will be much different, and the secondary situation will be much different, but some are freaking out without even allowing Belichick the opportunity to even turn the page on the season and get into free agency yet!

I'm sure that he realizes some of the challenges ahead of him, and that's also one of the reasons he is meeting with Arrington's reps this week. Even if all we had back was Arrington, the secondary would still look like this:

Dennard
Arrington
Dowling
McCourty
Wilson
Gregory

Ebner and Williams as ST/depth


Good God, judging by some of the comments and concerns you'd think the world was going to end. It's really not that bad of a situation to be starting out in when the month of the year is still February.

 

[ivanvamp]

Or....

Keep McCourty at safety
Sign a CB1 (Talib or other)
Re-sign Arrington
Draft Safety in round 1

Just doing that gives you plenty of safeties (rookie replaces Chung) and sets up the team at CB1, CB2 and CB3/CB4. At that point, they can bring in the annual parade of CB3/CB4 wannabes and find one that sticks, while hoping that Dowling isn't already a broken china doll and also has some game left in him.

There's no need to franchise Talib. In fact, I'll look at any decision to franchise Talib over Welker as evidence that the Jets have gotten to the Patriots brain trust with some sort of mind altering (and dumbing down) substance.

I'm not at all comfortable with Arrington as a starting outside CB. I like the idea of adding a guy like Reed or Woodson as a 1 or 2 year stopgap at safety, keeping Talib (either re-signing him or franchising him, whatever you gotta do), and if Dennard is going to play, great, then you have Dennard and Talib at the corners, and McCourty and Reed/Woodson at the safeties. But if Dennard is going to miss time, you shift McCourty back to CB for the interim, and have Talib and McCourty at the corners with Reed/Woodson and Gregory at the safeties.

Of course, I'd look to draft a couple of defensive backs as well.

 

[Ring 6]

They wanted to move him to safety. Trust me on this. The biggest reason why they couldn't was because Dowling kept getting hurt during the offseason.

Do you have anything better than 'trust me on this'?
These reports have always been what YOU think they want to do. If this is coming from inside the organization, why would you not divulge that?
Am I missing something?

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not at all comfortable with Arrington as a starting outside CB. I like the idea of adding a guy like Reed or Woodson as a 1 or 2 year stopgap at safety, keeping Talib (either re-signing him or franchising him, whatever you gotta do), and if Dennard is going to play, great, then you have Dennard and Talib at the corners, and McCourty and Reed/Woodson at the safeties. But if Dennard is going to miss time, you shift McCourty back to CB for the interim, and have Talib and McCourty at the corners with Reed/Woodson and Gregory at the safeties.

Of course, I'd look to draft a couple of defensive backs as well.

1.) I don't expect Dennard to miss time, and I don't have Arrington as a starting outside CB.

2.) If I had to rank how I'd use the franchise tag, It'd be Welker/Talib/Vollmer. However, the only one I'd use the tag on is Welker. There's no way in hell I'd use it on Talib or Vollmer.

3.) If Talib walks, there are other CB1 options.

4.) I don't expect Reed to be available.

Both sides want Reed back in Baltimore next year.

“We had that conversation yesterday on the bus ride away from the stadium actually,” Head Coach John Harbaugh said Monday morning after the Super Bowl. “He and I both agreed that we want him back. I want him back, and Ed wants to come back.”

Reed is now an unrestricted free agent and he emphasized that he hopes Sunday’s Super Bowl was not his last time in a Ravens uniform.

Ravens Want Ed Reed Back

5.) Woodson would be a great 1-2 season addition, as he can still play a bit of CB in a pinch (played nickel), but he's gone from Green Bay because of price, so I'm not counting on him being a bargain, and I don't want the Patriots paying out money at safety in a season where they should be taking one in the draft.

 

[DW Toys]

McCourty will probably be moved back if Dennard is found guilty and gets a jail or prison sentence.

Cousin, I would be really scared to see McCourty back at CB. His first year good stuff.....I get it. But complete digression in coverage skills since. Since then he is rated as one of the worst CB's in the NFL. Why would BB want him to now play CB, what I will say is out of position for him?

Please explain the love for McCourty as a CB? He rots as a CB. Look at his completion against and yard against.

I see the only alternative is TAG or sign Talib to two years and an option at three, a healthy Dowling (???), a Drafted CB and a solid FA pick up like Grimes (should have a cheaper price tag than say Sean Smith or DRC because of his rehab). Now you have two starters and a slot guy in Dowling. As soon as Dowling gets hurt again perhaps Dennard is back from his vacation. You groom the Draftee for when you lose Grimes or Talib in a couple years or when Dowling is finally done farting around with playing football and decides to become an athletic trainer.

Another thought is McKelvin who played decent as a CB when injuries forced him in, but he would resolve return problems especially if we loose Welker. He should be reasonable. Not that much of an upgrade to Cole, but better than Arrington, better than Dowling in the training room or Dennard in jail.

Leave McCourty back at FS and although you could have had SS George Wilson for $2m who is light years ahead of Tavon Wilson and keep Gregory as a swing guy, the Pats F.O. was sleeping again. They have something in mind for the other Safety. Goldston?, Reed?

DW Toys