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A Couple Of Modest Proposals: move McCourty back to CB, or franchise Talib

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by mgteich, Feb 18, 2013.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We are short 3 corners and a safety.

    Perhaps we need to consider moving McCourty back to corner and be short 2 corners and 2 safeties.

    This plan requires less resources than others. For example, we could re-sign Arrington and Cole (and/or their upgrades) and also add a couple of safeties (ideally one from free agency and one from the draft.

    =====

    Or we can simply decide to franchise Talib.
  2. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why franchise Talib rather than signing him at half the first year cap cost?
  3. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    McCourty will probably be moved back if Dennard is found guilty and gets a jail or prison sentence.
  4. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Adding two safeties is probably a bad idea seeing as one of them needs to be the QB in the secondary and that means a system veteran. Not sure Gregory is up for taking care of his own business let alone everyone else's.

    I think they have to be in limbo until they know the situation with Dennard. And I think Talib can be replaced easier than locating another safety to essentially direct the unit on the field. You don't weaken two positions in a desperate attempt to shore up one unless you're given no alternative. I think Talib would be fine aside from the fact that he's not a guy you have enough confidence in to commit $10M in guaranteed money, be that signing bonus or franchise tag. Not sure he's talented or durable enough to pay that price for one year, and he doesn't have the track record you'd want to see from a guy your committing to on a 5 year deal even at below market money. You'd still want some protections woven in to any contract you signed him to, although someone with a lot more cap may be willing to get around that via frontloading a deal and rolling the dice. Otherwise you look for a viable alternative.

    I have a feeling this team is presently willing to sit back and let the market speak and deal with the fallout even if it means they lose 3-4 UFA. Hopefully they are guessing right, although that hasn't been their strong suit for some time now. If not the FA market for corners might still yield just enough and the draft is looking good for safeties. And both provide options at OL. WR will be the toughest hole to fill if they let Welker walk.
  5. Helmet2Helmet

    Helmet2Helmet Banned

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    So the general consensus is Tavon Wilson is hopeless?
  6. Avenger

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    I think he had a good year for a rookie safety in a Belichick defense.
  7. Deus Irae

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    Or....

    Keep McCourty at safety
    Sign a CB1 (Talib or other)
    Re-sign Arrington
    Draft Safety in round 1

    Just doing that gives you plenty of safeties (rookie replaces Chung) and sets up the team at CB1, CB2 and CB3/CB4. At that point, they can bring in the annual parade of CB3/CB4 wannabes and find one that sticks, while hoping that Dowling isn't already a broken china doll and also has some game left in him.

    There's no need to franchise Talib. In fact, I'll look at any decision to franchise Talib over Welker as evidence that the Jets have gotten to the Patriots brain trust with some sort of mind altering (and dumbing down) substance.
  8. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    How Belichick feels about Wilson's year and progression here during that time will likely be one of the bigger variables in how he may approach the situation.

    Personally, I think it's way too early to be able to tell much one way or another regarding Wilson and his future. One good thing is that he received some valuable reps, more than Meriweather did when taken in the first round that year. Of course there were other issues that forced that to happen, mainly the competition in front of him, but regardless he did receive some decent looks for a first year player.

    I think he did some things well, and also obviously had some growing pains too, but I can't see how anyone could give up on him or say that he's hopeless after one rookie year.
  9. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Keep in mind that there were reports during training camp from both Greg Bedard and SMY that stated their sources claimed that Belichick wanted to keep McCourty at FS all along from the start of the mini-camps, but could not due to his concern about adequate depth at CB last season.

    We don't know if those reports are true or not but they exist, so it's something to keep in mind.

    I would have to assume that Belichick will plan on some continuity from keeping him at safety for now and to start the season, and only change that plan if significant injury forces him to do so. That's just my guess though, but it's hard to ignore the better play of the secondary which has now happened two years in a row by moving McCourty to safety---with and without Talib.
  10. Avenger

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    more safeties were signed/drafted than corners, that scenario does not go with the actions they took.
  11. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    After what date though? They weren't speaking about anything pre-summer.

    My general understanding from reading the articles were that they wanted to have him lined up at safety in June for minis and definitely by training camp at the end of July.
  12. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    HOLD ON, those were not REPORTS of what BB wanted, they were articles speculating what the writers thought BB wanted. There is a tremendous difference.

    He played more corner than safety this year, so Im mot sure putitng him at safety is a case of continuity.
  13. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again, there were no reports of knowledge of what BB wanted to do. There were articles saying what they think BB wanted to do.
    There was never any information from the organizatoin, just writers speculation.
  14. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I found reference to it again in October after McCourty moved to FS during the Jets game, but this wasn't the initial report that I had read earlier in the season at the end of the summer:

    "which the Boston Globe's Greg Bedard and Shalize Manza Young reported was the team's intention prior to the season and before the Patriots saw a lack of depth at cornerback."

    Devin McCourty’s Switch to Safety Could Finally Tie Patriots’ Struggling Secondary Together | New England Patriots | NESN.com
  15. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All I'm saying is that there were reports from Bedard and SMY who's sources claimed that's what Belichick wanted to do, and I've been clear in stating that from my first post on the last page.

    About 9/10 of all reports throughout the season is a writer claiming to have a source.

    I'm certainly not claiming that is what Belichick said, just that there were reports from Bedard and SMY that claimed the organization wanted to do that. It wasn't really an opinionated piece, it was more of a claim that they had sources which confirmed this.

    Like any report we read, we don't know if it's true or not because we can't ask Belichick.
  16. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why are you using an article saying what they think another article said?
    Go to the actual article. They did not report that those were the teams intentions, they speculated that they thought it was.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Again, I think if you go to the article you will see it is their opinion, not inside infornation. Like many opinions and speculation it has been regurgiatated as information over time.
  18. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ..................................
  19. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I claimed in my initial post on the last page to "keep in mind that Bedard and SMY reported that Belichick's intentions were to keep McCourty at safety from TC on."

    Obviously I highly doubt that Belichick himself would tell us what their actual plans were or would be in the future, so I think you are shooting the messenger.

    I never claimed that Belichick said this. Not even close.

    We get it that you are saying that the report was speculative, as the majority are. There wasn't any concrete evidence that Belichick wanted to keep him there, only a report from 2 beat writers who claimed that is what the organization wanted to do.
  20. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We currently have
    Dennard (waiting for prIson sentence)
    Dowling (waiting for this year's injuries)
    and no one else except Practice Squad quality players.
    =============

    I don't understand why most of you seem to be fine with keeping McCourty at FS, and simply hoping that we will be able to field an adequate set of corners.
  21. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The open question is whether it is easier to get two corners and a safety, or two safeties and a corner.

  22. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think that Belichick will obviously do what he feels is best for the secondary, so we'll have to trust that. So far it has produced decent overall results even despite a horrible secondary lately. I don't think it will be ignored though.

    I also think you are being a bit negative with the overall situation. We have no idea as to whether Dennard will get jail time or not, and if he does he would likely still be out by the end of the summer.

    They may also have a plan in place to re-sign Arrington, or at least make a very good attempt at doing so.

    It should also be noted that maybe Belichick feels just as strongly as you do about the dire state of the secondary, and that is one of the reasons he may take a chance at trying to keep the offense going without Welker, so that the money can be used for issues like this.
  23. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think we would need to have inside information as to how the organization feels about the progress made in year one from Tavon Wilson, and how they feel about their prospects in the draft/FA regarding safeties vs cornerbacks.

    In other words, probably only one man truly knows which way he'll approach it, and even then he may let the situation come to him and play with what is left after the initial overpayment rush in week one of FA.

    The Dennard situation is also probably being watched closely, but we should know tomorrow how much jail time he'll get, if any.
  24. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You may be correct in the issue of needing a safety to be captain of the defense.

    If we are "going to let the market speak and deal with the fallout", I can only hope that we make some of the more minor signings before free agency starts (perhaps 2-3 of Edelman, Woodhead, Arrington and Thomas).

  25. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No.....

    The open question is whether it's better for this team to have good safety play and look for help at corner, or to look for help at safety [highlight]and[/highlight] hope that McCourty doesn't wet himself at corner again.


    I'll take the former. You seem content with the latter.
  26. Metaphors

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    • I'm not sure how jerking McCourty back to corner (except in an injury emergency) would be a positive thing.
    • Dennard has shown enough to assume he will be a part of the rotation assuming the trial works out (can't believe he gets jail time past the summer).
    • Not sure why people are so down on Gregory, but he has been at least a steady veteran in the secondary. Can't credibly cry for J.Sanders and diss Gregory.
    • Wilson is 22 with one year under his belt. Writing him off as a bust doesn't seem very smart.
    • Dowling had found a niche as a physical between the numbers corner before his injury. If he can stay healthy, I think that becomes his role moving forward.

    Seems to me that CB is a much greater need than safety. In fact, a case could be made that the safety position is set for next year (including Ebner as the 4th ST guy). I expect the Pats to get a CB early in FA (Talib or otherwise) and then use the draft and later FA to pounce on whatever DB opportunities appear.
  27. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree that we are all set at safety, if McCourty stays at safety. Even so, I would expect us to add a draftee in this excellent safety draft. Ebner is a STer, and can be carried as such, even in he's listed as our fifth safety.

    You seem to greatly underestimate the need at corner. We need at least FOUR at this critical position. Even this is pretty light: 2 starters, a nickel and a backup who will play at least 50% of the defensive reps if anyone is injured. We currently have one corner on trial and the other who was injured for all but two games in his first two years. That's just not good in this passing league.

    I understand that we can simply say that we were unlucky that Dowling and/or one of the free agent corners doesn't work out well.


  28. DaBruinz

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    No. That isn't the "GENERAL Consensus". That might be the idea of a few hair-brained posters who insist on thinking the sky is falling because every pick isn't an immediate All-Pro, but it's certainly not the consensus.

    Most fair-minded posters believe that Wilson showed plenty during his rookie season. Especially a rookie in the Pats defense.
  29. nzahir

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    How about we keep Mccourt at safety, re sign talib or a corner of his talent or higher, hope that dennard can play next season(or we will have to rely on dowling and his health), and draft the honey badger to play slot cb. Then for ss we can use tavon wilson or try to draft a guy like elam or if not maybe eric reid. The pats should try to add some interior pass rush to help the line and secondary, a guy like desmond bryant is ideal. Henry melton is nice but he will probably be too expensive and franchised. Maybe someone gets cut or traded like a cullen jenkins.
  30. DaBruinz

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    Where do you get that the Patriots are short 3 Corners and a safety? Because they have Chung, Arrington, Talib, Cole and Martin as free agents? You seem to forget that only 3 of the 5 actually started the season with the Pats.

    Lets do a rundown of what the Pats have on the roster currently.
    McCourty, Dowling, T. Wilson, S. Gregory, Ebner, Dennard, Malcolm Williams. Of them, Ebner and Williams are almost exclusively special teamers. That still leaves the Pats with 3 safeties and 2 Corners. Yes, I am counting McCourty as a Safety because I believe that is where the Pats want him to be full time.

    That means the Pats should a minimum of 2 DBs. Whether they are 1CB and 1 S or 2 CB/S combos or 2 CBs, that's what they'll l;ikely look at for the final roster. But it's a long way between now and then and there will probably been 6-10 guys that they bring in and give a look at.

    The key is to bring in someone for the STAR position. Someone who can cover the slot receiver. Be it a WR or a TE.

    But, in addition to that, the Pats need to jam the TEs at the line with a LB to throw the timing off.
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