100% Health - Amendola or Edelman in the slot?

[Ivan]

My first thought is you have ignored that I also outlined career stats in the NFL, convient I guess.

My second thought is am I really taking the time to explain to fans of a professional sports team that the athletic ability of the professional athletes does matter.

I have to assume you don't think your doctor having a college degree matters either?

My first thought is that is an extremely arrogant post.


Actually that's my second thought as well.


You don't need to "explain" that being an athlete is important to being an athlete, I'm pretty sure everyone gets that. The issue was your use of out of date measureables as a way of calibrating the worth of players who have been in the league for four years, it's bogus, period. If they wanted to know what their 3 cone and high jumps were they would simply have them do it when they work them out, but once guys have played that long coaches don't really care about those numbers as they have the film and the ability to bring them in and check them out in person. They can't do that getting ready for the draft so they have a universal test instead, and that's the combine supplemented by pro days. Edelman and Amendola play on the same team, Belichick doesn't need 4 year old drill numbers to decide who should be doing what, he can see it and try them at it every day. What matters now is their ability to get open, catch the ball, and make plays, not how many times they bench 225.

 

[Ivan]

No disrespect to a servicable player like Edelman but asking this question is like asking someone what do you want for dinner....

Tuna Fish with potato chips? or Lobster with a baked potato?

If Amendola can stay on the field he's a really good player, but i have to say that i have been really impressed with Edelman this season, especially since he has been thrust into a go to role with very little help around him to take the pressure off, and he's done an excellent job despite it. Although I have no idea why his agent would go for it right now I think trying to re-sign him would be a really good idea, I just doubt it will happen, I think they will go into another offseason and roll the dice on keeping him. If he keeps this up he's going to make good money next offseason.

 

[RayClay]

I meant to say that I'm not comparing Troy Brown with JE. I was making a point that it took years before he became a full time starter.

I understand that. I was making a greater point concerning the thread topic, that you have to watch the players play. there is no other "metric" that compares to that.

I watch Amendola and I see a more dangerous receiver than Edelman. I'm a fan of Edelman's versatility and he's a hell of a punt returner.

 

[Ring 6]

I think you may have chugged to much of the Amendola Koolaid this year, he considered marginally better and Greg Salas a year ago.

You are joking right?
I can see why you question whether he may get comepetition from Edelman if you think he is Greg Salas. Maybe the thread should be whether Slater will surpass Amendola.
The stats you posted had Amendola catching twice as many passes while playing 10 fewer games. Please explain how that is close.

 

[Ring 6]

I did not offer an opinion I asked a question, hence the question mark at of the thread title. I offered a comparison of their athletic metrics and career stats to provide data to answer my question. I suggested a case could be made for Edelman and assumed that the $5M annually combined with being the incumbent starter implied a previously laid out case for Amendola.

Personally I finish my opinions with periods, sometimes explanation points, but never a question mark.

As far as your view on the question it is common human courtesy to offer a justification along with a negative response which is to serve to educate rather than just degrate. So unless you have terrets sydrom by way of a keyboard you can certainly help it. Andy do you truly believe that I have never scrolled past something you've written that I felt inclined to respond something like you've written in here? Because I can tell you I have but I did not respond to you as you have me, because I like you and respect what you offer in here whether in agreement or not, my fail was expecting a mutal level of respect and appreciation. There are no bonus points for making others look or feel bad Andy and to be honest it just takes away from you. Do what you want but don't lie and say you can't help, you choose not to help it.

By asking the question you offer an opinion that it is a reasonable question.
I have no control over your emotions and how you will feel about my post.
I don't really care how you post either. Say what is on your mind, my feelings won't be hurt. I did not disrespect you, I disresepcted your opinion.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I think a healthy Amendola would have easily surpassed what Welker has done at Denver thus far.

Amendola was clearly Brady's go to guy at Buffalo in week one and easily would have continued his successful role here in the last 3 games he missed.

Amendola is easily far and away the best receiver on this team when healthy and only Gronk at TE is better....there should be no argument here,there is no reason for one.

I believe Amendola is an Elite WR but is being held back by constant injuries that are both of minor and major substance,if his body ever gets strong enough to take the hard hits then we shall see him at his best,it's a shame he has not been able to hurdle or avoid it yet,it's out of his control.....and it's out of ours as well.

 

[Brady6]

My first thought is that is an extremely arrogant post.


Actually that's my second thought as well.

Arrogant really well if I am arrogant imagine how a person who suggests he can determine a players capability without combine numbers mattering sounds? You made ridiculous statement in which you implied my adding context to support my question was meaningless and then when I call you on it you call me arrogant. Come on Ivan you know Michael Hoomanawanui better as a player than you do Danny Amendola but yet you stand up and pronounce that his workout numbers don’t matter and others suggest that my asking who is a better fit for the slot him or Edelman is ridiculous, as if any of you were sitting home the last 4 years watching the Rams on Sunday ticket. You think you know Amendola as a player but you know what you don’t know him anymore than I do the difference is I am not too ARROGANT to admit it so I asked the question and presented the data I had access to.

You don't need to "explain" that being an athlete is important to being an athlete, I'm pretty sure everyone gets that. The issue was your use of out of date measureables as a way of calibrating the worth of players who have been in the league for four years, it's bogus, period. If they wanted to know what their 3 cone and high jumps were they would simply have them do it when they work them out, but once guys have played that long coaches don't really care about those numbers as they have the film and the ability to bring them in and check them out in person. They can't do that getting ready for the draft so they have a universal test instead, and that's the combine supplemented by pro days. Edelman and Amendola play on the same team, Belichick doesn't need 4 year old drill numbers to decide who should be doing what, he can see it and try them at it every day. What matters now is their ability to get open, catch the ball, and make plays, not how many times they bench 225.

Belichick may not need the information but when I ask a question to members of a fan base I tend to find value in presenting as much data as possible which is why I laid out their athletic ability and their NFL stats. I was not asking Belichick who should start I was asking you and others in this forum, the fact that you suggest you can make that determination based on the 1 game you saw of Amendola this year and some highlights from his career with the Rams is unimaginable to me.

 

[manxman2601]

Austin Collie 3cone - 6.73.

 

[JackBauer]

I think you may have chugged to much of the Amendola Koolaid this year, he considered marginally better and Greg Salas a year ago.

On what planet?

 

[Brady6]

By asking the question you offer an opinion that it is a reasonable question.
I have no control over your emotions and how you will feel about my post.
I don't really care how you post either. Say what is on your mind, my feelings won't be hurt. I did not disrespect you, I disresepcted your opinion.

Andy how many Rams games have you watched in the last 4 years? You no absolutely nothing about Amendola you think he is better because we paid him big money and he reportedly played well in St Louis, you read some reports and saw some highlight film of him but yet you come in here on your high horse shooting down my suggestions or questions without justification. Survey how many times you’ve made some high horse statement and it turned out to be the opposite of right.

I could pull posts for days out of threads about players like Talib, Dennard, Ninkovich and so many other players where these high horse type statements were made and the poster was 100% wrong, the odd thing is the same people who have already experience that fail are some of the same ones who made some invalidated overly bold demeaning statement, guess people really do just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

Here’s a good one from this preseason where a poster expressed excitement over Buchanan and you responded with a high horse comment offering zero justification.

I am extremely excited about this kid and think he would really thrive as a situational pass rusher. I know he lost some weight from his jaw being wired shut. What are your expectations / what role do you think Michael Buchanan will play this year?

I expect him to be on the practice squad

Why don’t you stop, Andy honestly I like you a lot as poster and I think you bring a lot of educated and valuable discussion to this site, I just cannot understand for the life of me why you choose to present yourself so poorly sometime or appear so intent on being demeaning towards other members just for the sake of doing something. It is truly unnecessary and quite frankly you owe it to yourself to illustrate your points better in here.

 

[Brady6]

On what planet?

I said last year and if you go back through this thread you will see that what I said is in fact true, when Salas arrived via trade last season people were talking him up and saying he was almost as good as Amendola, some compared him to Boldin even. This year Amendola is being labeled as GREAT. Ping pong around.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...939981-patriots-trade-rams-wr-greg-salas.html

 

[Brady6]

You are joking right?
I can see why you question whether he may get comepetition from Edelman if you think he is Greg Salas. Maybe the thread should be whether Slater will surpass Amendola.
The stats you posted had Amendola catching twice as many passes while playing 10 fewer games. Please explain how that is close.

As I said in post #91 I was referring to last year and read the link to the Salas thread and you will see in 2012 Greg Salas flavored Kool-Aid was the flavor of choice, not it is Amendola flavored, just a quick note you may be better off reading my posts in their entirety, not changing any sentences or removing words and then posting a response, it would probably save us both some time and energy.

Regarding having twice as many catches in less games, I guess my question is does it really matter if he has been targeted more than twice any many times? Do you really think that if Danny Amendola was in New England for the last 4 seasons with Wes Welker ahead of him on the depth chart he would have twice as many catches? No he has more catches because he was targeted more times that does not make him a better player than anyone the fact is Amendola does not even average 9 yards per reception for his career that is downright awful at any level for a wide receiver. Edelman has a higher catch to target % which means if both players had the same targets Edelman would have more catches.

If you projected Edelman’s numbers out over 307 targets you’d end up with this:

• 209 receptions
• 2091 receiving yards
• 13 touchdowns

Compared to Amendola’s career stats:

• 206 receptions
• 1830 receiving yards
• 7 touchdowns

Now before you tell me that getting open matters that argument does not apply here and we both know it so don’t bother, the reason Amendola has more targets is because he was a starter and not on a team with Wes Welker as the slot receiver.

 

[voluntarysaftey]

To the above poster:
During the offseason, if the Patriots really thought Edelman was better than Amendola; then they would've signed Edelman up multi-year as he as super cheap

Edelman has likely over-performed what the Patriots expected of him. And I'm happy he has. But I still expect Amendola to be better just based on the fact that the Patriots believed Amendola would be better than Welker over the next 2 seasons.

 

[Brady6]

To the above poster:
During the offseason, if the Patriots really thought Edelman was better than Amendola; then they would've signed Edelman up multi-year as he as super cheap

Edelman has likely over-performed what the Patriots expected of him. And I'm happy he has. But I still expect Amendola to be better just based on the fact that the Patriots believed Amendola would be better than Welker over the next 2 seasons.

Maybe but there is also a possibility that Amendola was considered more proven, that may not be the case after this season.

Listen I am not this huge Edelman supporter who runs around with my #11 jersey saying he is heaven sent, but something people forget about Julian Edelman is he was a college quarterback and has only been playing wide receiver since he entered the NFL in 2009, so his development has been ongoing every year he has been on this team, Edelman up until last season never saw consistent reps as a wide receiver so this is also his second straight season playing only at wide out, he made tremendous improvements last season, he was either 1 or 2 on the team in preseason receptions and he is currently tied for the most receptions in the NFL. Amendola was a wide receiver in college so it is absolutely possible that Edelman’s development as a receiver took a big step forward in his second year as a primary target and he is now better than Amendola.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy how many Rams games have you watched in the last 4 years?

quite a bit actually

You no absolutely nothing about Amendola you think he is better because we paid him big money and he reportedly played well in St Louis, you read some reports and saw some highlight film of him but yet you come in here on your high horse shooting down my suggestions or questions without justification. Survey how many times you’ve made some high horse statement and it turned out to be the opposite of right.

Totally incorrect. If you knew you would know that my assessments of players are based on my own observation, not reports, highlight films, or combine numbers.

I could pull posts for days out of threads about players like Talib, Dennard, Ninkovich and so many other players where these high horse type statements were made and the poster was 100% wrong, the odd thing is the same people who have already experience that fail are some of the same ones who made some invalidated overly bold demeaning statement, guess people really do just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

So you are saying that someone once posted wrong opinions of players so that means no ones opinion is ever correct?
This makes absolutely no sense.

Here’s a good one from this preseason where a poster expressed excitement over Buchanan and you responded with a high horse comment offering zero justification.

What are you talking about? There was a discussion about a player and I said I expect him to be on the practice squad. That was my expectation and opinion that turned out incorrect. You are expecting volumes written to explain every opinion, prediction or expectation?
This is bizarre.




[quote\Why don’t you stop, Andy honestly I like you a lot as poster and I think you bring a lot of educated and valuable discussion to this site, I just cannot understand for the life of me why you choose to present yourself so poorly sometime or appear so intent on being demeaning towards other members just for the sake of doing something. It is truly unnecessary and quite frankly you owe it to yourself to illustrate your points better in here.[/QUOTE]
Tell you what, you post how you want, and I will post how I want.

 

[LasVegasPatsFan]

I think most people are basing this debate on what each player has done in recent past. Its like ranking the strength of schedule based on last years records. That being said, is it conceivable that Edelman hasn't hit his ceiling or maybe he is getting better with more game time reps? It seems as if Brady is starting to build chemistry with Edelman. As of today, JE has out performed many peoples expectations and it is quite possible barring any injuries or less playing time, he could put up WW type numbers. Not saying he will, just a possibility. If I told you by week 4 Edelman would be tie for league lead in catches I would probably got slammed on this forum. We now have two good slot type WR's which is not a bad thing....I'm sure many teams would love to have this problem. In the end, I couldn't care less who starts, just as long as we keep winning.

 

[Ring 6]

As I said in post #91 I was referring to last year and read the link to the Salas thread and you will see in 2012 Greg Salas flavored Kool-Aid was the flavor of choice, not it is Amendola flavored, just a quick note you may be better off reading my posts in their entirety, not changing any sentences or removing words and then posting a response, it would probably save us both some time and energy.

So a Patsfan thread showing some high hopes for a player now equals proof of how good he is compared to another?
I read the whole thing and didnt change anything.

Regarding having twice as many catches in less games, I guess my question is does it really matter if he has been targeted more than twice any many times?

Most of being an effective receiver is getting open so you get targetted.
So in your estimation every receiver that catches 66% of his targets is equal?
Have you factored in the inordinate amount of Edelman catches that were screens? Would you expect that same completion rate on a screen and a 10 yard pass?

Do you really think that if Danny Amendola was in New England for the last 4 seasons with Wes Welker ahead of him on the depth chart he would have twice as many catches?

He would not have been behind Sam Aiken, Tijuan Underwood, 85, Lloyd and Tate. So yes, he would have caught a ton of passes NEXT TO Welker.

No he has more catches because he was targeted more times that does not make him a better player than anyone

# of targets may be the single most valid stat in judging a WR.

the fact is Amendola does not even average 9 yards per reception for his career that is downright awful at any level for a wide receiver. Edelman has a higher catch to target % which means if both players had the same targets Edelman would have more catches.

100% wrong, because those additional targets would have been to Edelman when he wasn't open.

If you projected Edelman’s numbers out over 307 targets you’d end up with this:

• 209 receptions
• 2091 receiving yards
• 13 touchdowns

Compared to Amendola’s career stats:

• 206 receptions
• 1830 receiving yards
• 7 touchdowns

Question: Which one produced that on a football field, and which one produced it in your fantasy

Now before you tell me that getting open matters that argument does not apply here and we both know it so don’t bother, the reason Amendola has more targets is because he was a starter and not on a team with Wes Welker as the slot receiver.

Totally wrong.
I think we are on different levels of understanding of football. How about we agree to just not respond to each other, because this is truly pointless to have to explain that getting open is important in a WR.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: 100% Health - Amendola or Edelman in the slot?

quite a bit actually

Totally incorrect. If you knew you would know that my assessments of players are based on my own observation, not reports, highlight films, or combine numbers.

Break it down then Andy, what makes Amendola a superior player?

So you are saying that someone once posted wrong opinions of players so that means no ones opinion is ever correct?
This makes absolutely no sense.

No I am saying if you go around making such bold and sure of yourself statements I would expect you to be right a lot more often, the way you deliver your opinion leaves zero room for error so when your wrong it looks pretty foolish.

What are you talking about? There was a discussion about a player and I said I expect him to be on the practice squad. That was my expectation and opinion that turned out incorrect. You are expecting volumes written to explain every opinion, prediction or expectation?
This is bizarre.

I expect that you offer a justification for why you expect it not just some one liner with no merit to support the opinion, and go back read some of your posts, Dennard, Talib, Ninkovich you consistently provided this bold and confident answers that lack context, justification or anything to validate your opinion. So if your going to disagree with someone or something at least explain why because you are not right enough that you opinion on its own without any explanation hold merit. I am not insulting you either I don't think my opinion holds merit without explanation either which is why I explain myself.

Either way I'm not fighting with you about nothing anymore, like I said I hold you in high regard and respect you despite my finding you to be overly aggressive at times, so let's just agree to disagree here and move on.

 

[Ring 6]

I said last year and if you go back through this thread you will see that what I said is in fact true, when Salas arrived via trade last season people were talking him up and saying he was almost as good as Amendola, some compared him to Boldin even. This year Amendola is being labeled as GREAT. Ping pong around.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...939981-patriots-trade-rams-wr-greg-salas.html

I just read the first few and the last few pages of that thread, and it is nothing close to what you describe. I didn't see even a single comment expecting him to even start a game.
I think you are on tilt now and just making things up. Sad.

 

[Brady6]

Re: Re: 100% Health - Amendola or Edelman in the slot?

So a Patsfan thread showing some high hopes for a player now equals proof of how good he is compared to another?
I read the whole thing and didnt change anything.


Most of being an effective receiver is getting open so you get targetted.
So in your estimation every receiver that catches 66% of his targets is equal?
Have you factored in the inordinate amount of Edelman catches that were screens? Would you expect that same completion rate on a screen and a 10 yard pass?



He would not have been behind Sam Aiken, Tijuan Underwood, 85, Lloyd and Tate. So yes, he would have caught a ton of passes NEXT TO Welker.




# of targets may be the single most valid stat in judging a WR.




100% wrong, because those additional targets would have been to Edelman when he wasn't open.


Question: Which one produced that on a football field, and which one produced it in your fantasy


Totally wrong.
I think we are on different levels of understanding of football. How about we agree to just not respond to each other, because this is truly pointless to have to explain that getting open is important in a WR.

How do you get open when your not on the field Andy? Wes Welker was in front of Edelman so he was not on the field, go look at how many offensive snaps they played in their first 4 season, Amendola played more then 6 times as many snaps then Edelman on offense, don't tell me about getting open and don't tell act like you have a better understanding of football because you don't on this, you've ignore so many facts in order to support you bias its borderline insanity.