So this is the first I've heard of this theory

shmessy · Nov 2, 2007

wizwor said:
The Pats would not do that. Too much class (I think this is the first time the 'c' word has been used in this thread). They would go to the commish and quietly make their case.

Maybe they did.

mcbee · Nov 2, 2007

emoney_33 said:
Enough with the craziness. It's quite simple, as all answers usually are.

BB thought the rule applied only if you were using the tape during games. BB never used tapes of defensive coaches during game, it's not feasible and he knows everyone in the game knows that. He used it to compile a database of coaches' mannerisms and tendencies. Blah blah blah, it's over.

It's either that or he was upset over the miami fiasco last year and decided he wanted to "stick it to the league", with the rule misinterpretation as his backup.

Nothing more nothing less.

Exactly right. He thought it was a grey area. The rule says you can't record "to use in a game". WHICH game? If it were all games it would just say "you cannot record". The "to use in a game" implies that MAYBE it's "you cannot record to use in the CURRENT" game.

I think that was his out.

He didn't PLAN on getting caught but thought that was a good explanation if he did. Grey area. Legal type arguements would follow. Instead he got his head handed to him.

Other teams may tape signals but I doubt if it works. Previous coaches have said it's difficult if not impossible. Jimmy Johnson said they tried and it never worked, IIRC. They CHANGE signals all the time, have two guys giving them (one a dummy)..and the guys change from dummy to real often. Plus you'd have to change the offensive play at the last second and only the QB would know it. IF it's a blitz you could tell him to checkdown, that's about it.

FibSeq13478 · Nov 2, 2007

Lloyd_Christmas said:
I have a real hard time buying this.

Arguments for BB doing it on purpose:

1. BB is too d.mn smart IMO to get hoodwinked like he apparently did.
2. There do seem to be a lot of really crappy teams this year (although that could just be coincidence).
3. BB seems to be the type to throw sh.t in the league's face to try to force them to change stupid rules (see his abuse of the injury report for example).
4. Stealing defensive signals and other such activity would seem to help the sh.ttier teams more IMO.
5. I can see BB having footage of other teams doing it and then presenting that to the league as his defense. The press reports of his meeting with Goodall and how he tried to convince him of the "rules misinterpretation" leads me to believe that he tried to do just that, but the Goodall wasn't going allong with it. There was too much blood in the water and the sharks (media) needed some red meat to feed on. An example HAD to be made!

Arguments for this conspiracy theory being totally bat sh.t crazy:

1. No team in their right mind would risk truck loads of cash and high draft picks just to make a point.
2. The Patriots understand that their team's image is their brand and that their brand is what makes Kraft money. I just can't believe BB would risk damaging the brand just to take the perverbial crap on the NFL comissioner's desk.
3. Why risk your championships being called tainted. All that hard work to win those and you risk throwing away the legacy to prove a point. Same goes for possible hall of fame consideration for BB and any deserving players.
4. BB knew everyone was doing it and figured that if he did get caught, it would be handled the same way it was in the past.... and even if it didn't, that the league would sweep it all under the rug to avoid publicity and possible damage to the NFL credentials.
5. BB could not have guessed how the media would go into a frenzy over it and how all the other teams would shove a dagger in his back while pretending they NEVER do this sort of thing. That led to the massive fine that he probably didn't figure one, should he get caught. That leads me to believe that he was willing to take the gamble since he didn't expect this kind of fallout should he get caught doing it.

***

I think BB tried to get away with it because it was just one of MANY ways that we could get a tiny edge and play to our potential.

He didn't see the massive backlash coming should he get caught and probably didn't figure any coach with rat him out... not even Manjudas.

He probably tried unsucessfully to argue/prove that everyone was doing it in order to stem the bleeding, but Sheriff Goodall needed someone to swing from the gallows to prove he was the badd.ss lawman that going to restore order to the NFL.

The cards were stacked against us so we took our beating and humiliation.

Now for the payback....

You bring up some excellent points as do some of the other posts on this thread. One additional idea that I have not seen mentioned is the following.
One thing BB strives hard to do every week is to give the opponent a lot to prepare for. He does this in a variety of ways including giving very little injury information, show lot of formations in early games etc. It seems logical to me that he would want to have the camera recording be done in plain view so that the opponent knows that their signals are being recorded (Of course BB's aggressive interpretation of the rule was that it is legal to use it after the game) so that they have to work changing signals from week to week and quarter to quarter into their preparations. I wonder if that is why this year many of the average teams have become bad teams.

shmessy · Nov 2, 2007

mcbee said:
Exactly right. He thought it was a grey area. The rule says you can't record "to use in a game". WHICH game? If it were all games it would just say "you cannot record". The "to use in a game" implies that MAYBE it's "you cannot record to use in the CURRENT" game.

I think that was his out.

He didn't PLAN on getting caught but thought that was a good explanation if he did. Grey area. Legal type arguements would follow. Instead he got his head handed to him.

Other teams may tape signals but I doubt if it works. Previous coaches have said it's difficult if not impossible. Jimmy Johnson said they tried and it never worked, IIRC. They CHANGE signals all the time, have two guys giving them (one a dummy)..and the guys change from dummy to real often. Plus you'd have to change the offensive play at the last second and only the QB would know it. IF it's a blitz you could tell him to checkdown, that's about it.

I can buy the "grey area" argument - - no one WANTS to get fined $500,000 and to have one's legacy put in question.

However, the facts are pretty clear that he certainly ADVERTISED Estrella on the sideline. The kid couldn't have been more obvious if he had a NEON SIGN around his neck flashing "Look at me!!!".

If BB DIDN'T want to get caught, he would have put Estrella in the stands with a mini cam. You don't have to be dressed in Patriots staffer clothing on the sidelines with a shoulder pack to get that video of the opposing coaches.

THAT is the point of contention here.

Keegs · Nov 2, 2007

shmessy said:
I think Shiva is right.

I wrote several posts that first week saying BB MUST have done this on purpose.

He puts Estrella on the sidelines? In full view of Mangini? 8 miles away from the NFL Headquarters which issued the memo days earlier? Estrella in full Patriots staff clothing? In this day and age, he's carrying one of those bulky video cameras - -where is the spy camera technology in 2007?

BB did this on purpose.

well cut off my nuts and call me Aqua b/c i agree with you (somewhat).
I also agree that it helped the Colts win the AFC Championship game last year (among other sleazy things)

-BB is too smart to just get caught like that.
-Now bill may not have planned it to go this out of control (media saying superbowls are "tainted", all this other crap)
-it lets him expose RattaToouie for the fat sack of trash that he is
-BB's edge coaching is so big that "leveling the playing field' makes him THAT MUCH BETTER. nobody is close in the league. I felt that this was one of the positives as soon as he was busted.
-BB is going to talk about this when he's done coaching and expose the whole thing. So there goes the media scrutiny and Skip Bayless b.s we are all tired of listening to. itll just take years to hear it.

If you believe this or aren't sure, all you have to figure out is:

For the cost of a 1st round pick, bad press, and some $$$$, is it worth it to level the playing field in terms of signal stealing, and finally have a real "us against the world mentality".
If BB thinks it's worth the pick and the press, then it's a possibility

but it is kinda far fetched.
So patsox23, yes, i must be ******ed.

Keegs · Nov 2, 2007

shmessy said:
I can buy the "grey area" argument - - no one WANTS to get fined $500,000 and to have one's legacy put in question.

However, the facts are pretty clear that he certainly ADVERTISED Estrella on the sideline. The kid couldn't have been more obvious if he had a NEON SIGN around his neck flashing "Look at me!!!".

If BB DIDN'T want to get caught, he would have put Estrella in the stands with a mini cam. You don't have to be dressed in Patriots staffer clothing on the sidelines with a shoulder pack to get that video of the opposing coaches.

THAT is the point of contention here.

agreed.

another possibility is that BB didn't necessarily "plan" this but since everyone else does it he said "**** the league and **** those teams im doing it anyways".

then it took off from there.
Kinda the same thing though.

RodRustsGhost · Nov 2, 2007

I just want to refute one minor, but key point. In the calculations as to whether BB was purposefully getting caught or not, one can not assume that he would have expected the punishment he received as realistic or likely. It was by far the steepest most severe punishment of it's kind in the history of the NFL. I'm not even sure he realistically would have expected to lose any draft pics, or 1/10th of that amount of cash.

When one is taking an action outside the rules, one has to determine the possible costs, and decide whether the benefits outweigh those costs. The problems we have in discussing this subject include:

a) we don't know what benefits BB perceived to his actions.
b) we don't know what what costs BB believed were possible.

If we knew a and b, then perhaps we could come to valid opinions on the matter. As it stands, there's just no way to know if it was deliberate foolish calculated misfire, or careless sloppy stupidity.

shmessy · Nov 2, 2007

RodRustsGhost said:
I just want to refute one minor, but key point. In the calculations as to whether BB was purposefully getting caught or not, one can not assume that he would have expected the punishment he received as realistic or likely. It was by far the steepest most severe punishment of it's kind in the history of the NFL. I'm not even sure he realistically would have expected to lose any draft pics, or 1/10th of that amount of cash.

When one is taking an action outside the rules, one has to determine the possible costs, and decide whether the benefits outweigh those costs. The problems we have in discussing this subject include:

a) we don't know what benefits BB perceived to his actions.
b) we don't know what what costs BB believed were possible.

If we knew a and b, then perhaps we could come to valid opinions on the matter. As it stands, there's just no way to know if it was deliberate foolish calculated misfire, or careless sloppy stupidity.

Agreed. It's only a theory, but I believe while BB actively wanted to get caught, he completely miscalculated the league consequences.

There was no "subterfuge".

borg · Nov 2, 2007

Patriotic Fervor said:
Well, whatever the merits of the original poster's conspiracy theory, I do agree that Belichick was closer to getting canned than any of us know or imagine. He was so close that Kraft signed him to a 5-year extension 2 days later, undoubtedly along with more than enough money to make up for the $500K that Highwayman Goodell took from him.

BB's master plan worked brilliantly. At precisely 12:57 PM, The Maestro set into motion Operation DeRat, a subset designation for Operation Get Paid, by deploying a handpicked reconnaissance team into enemy territory with sophisticated 8 track technology. Stage One required precise positioning at the enemy coordinator's right flank. Having secured this position, Stage Two unfolded. With the crowd distracted, the DeRat team began heckling Mangini and waving a 2007 Patriots playbook in front of his whiskers. Knowing Mangini couldn't resist, the Jets coach sent his former FBI henchman after the playbook. The chase led into the tunnel underneath Giants Stadium where Ashton Kutcher was waiting with his "Punked" crew. With the NFL security team now out of position under the stadium, the Maesto initiated Stage Three. Utilizing secret morphing technology secured from North Korea, the third member of the DeRat team infiltrated the players' security zone on the Jets sideline and inserted a state-of-the-art nuclear powered communications chip with satellite technology into the ear of QB Chad Pennington. The two-way chip instantly began downloading information via satellite to the high tech bunker the Patriots had installed in South Bend, Indiana. Anytime, the chip crossed the sideline on to the field, the subliminal messaging process began. Utilizing Chinese theory on self esteem reinforcement on the battlefield, the highly paid South Bend consultant began sending subtle messages to the chip urging safe outlet passes to the RBs in order to preserve a high completion percentage. Having achieved success and total domination by the third quarter, the Maestro sent two messages to the Owner's box. "Operation DeRat an enormous success...Requires further budget consideration" and "Operation Get Paid has commenced."

Franchise12 · Nov 2, 2007

Read sun tzu "the art of war" and "41 laws of power" 2 of belichicks favorite books and you will almost believe this theory. In reality its not that far fetched. this is where he gets his coaching inspiration

heres a few guotes from the art of war.

(IN REGARDS TO RUNNING UP THE SCORE)
"The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory."
- Sun Tzu

(ABOUT SPYGATE)

"the general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple ere the battle is fought. The general who loses a battle makes but few calculations beforehand. Thus do many calculations lead to victory, and few calculations to defeat: how much more no calculation at all! It is by attention to this point that I can foresee who is likely to win or lose."
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

(ABOUT OUR COACH)

"The general who advances without coveting fame and retreats without fearing disgrace, whose only thought is to protect his country and do good service for his sovereign, is the jewel of the kingdom."
- Sun Tzu

Belichick sees everything in a Risk/reward kind of way. the reward greatly outweighs the risk in this matter. he is a master stategist.

PatsWickedPissah · Nov 2, 2007

borg said:
BB's master plan worked brilliantly. At precisely 12:57 PM, The Maestro set into motion Operation DeRat, a subset designation for Operation Get Paid, by deploying a handpicked reconnaissance team into enemy territory with sophisticated 8 track technology. Stage One required precise positioning at the enemy coordinator's right flank. Having secured this position, Stage Two unfolded. With the crowd distracted, the DeRat team began heckling Mangini and waving a 2007 Patriots playbook in front of his whiskers. Knowing Mangini couldn't resist, the Jets coach sent his former FBI henchman after the playbook. The chase led into the tunnel underneath Giants Stadium where Ashton Kutcher was waiting with his "Punked" crew. With the NFL security team now out of position under the stadium, the Maesto initiated Stage Three. Utilizing secret morphing technology secured from North Korea, the third member of the DeRat team infiltrated the players' security zone on the Jets sideline and inserted a state-of-the-art nuclear powered communications chip with satellite technology into the ear of QB Chad Pennington. The two-way chip instantly began downloading information via satellite to the high tech bunker the Patriots had installed in South Bend, Indiana. Anytime, the chip crossed the sideline on to the field, the subliminal messaging process began. Utilizing Chinese theory on self esteem reinforcement on the battlefield, the highly paid South Bend consultant began sending subtle messages to the chip urging safe outlet passes to the RBs in order to preserve a high completion percentage. Having achieved success and total domination by the third quarter, the Maestro sent two messages to the Owner's box. "Operation DeRat an enormous success...Requires further budget consideration" and "Operation Get Paid has commenced."

Hilarious. Sadly this satire makes more sense than many of the posts.

What bothers me about many of the theories is that supposedly this was done to discredit and damage Mangini.
As if.
Why would the greatest coach in NFL history be worried about a guy who took a HC position way too early in his career and who would simply self-destruct in the torid media cauldron of NY? No action by the Pats was ever necessary to have Mangini go down the tubes.

bclaff · Nov 2, 2007

PatriotsReign said:
Whenever we see someone post such nonsense and has a history of "2" whole posts, we know you're a troll trying to stir things up. Nice try and I hope you get banned soon.

What I can't believe is that my fellow Patsfans actually fell for this and have 7 pages of posts on something that never happened which was posted by a Colts troll who's sitting there laughing his butt off. Shame on us!

Believe it or not, we actually have witnessed some cowards who join our site disguised with Patriot screen names. But strangely, these feeble minded fools actually think they won't stand out...I know, can you believe it?

We'll be watching you.

Hey, it's fun to speculate while waiting for Sunday to come.

PatriotsReign · Nov 2, 2007

shmessy said:
Actually, many of us came up with the same theory early on. It has nothing to do with how many posts, or when he joined. Posting numbers or join date are irrelevant (after all, Patriotsreign, you deserve just as much respect as I do, right?).

Instead of attacking the poster, how about offering some SUBSTANTIVE points to refute him? That would help the conversation.

First of all, has anyone else ever heard of this mysterious security guard this man is talking about?

Secondly, this theory has been discussed several times before. but now somehow, this new member has all the inside infor from a security guard? c'mon shmessy! I think not.

Most posters who come here and immediately post such a "revelation" are typically trolls. Has anyone asked him how he got this information when no one else on the face of the earth has heard it?

Although I think his theory may be correct, as far as this guard goes...

I believe he is lying, plain & simple.

PatriotsReign · Nov 2, 2007

bclaff said:
Hey, it's fun to speculate while waiting for Sunday to come.

I agree the theory is awesome to consider and if true, would just blow all the idiotic pundits away. I just don't care for his little inside scoop from the mysterious guard. I don't believe making up stories is part of what we do here...we leave that for people like King & Esterbrook.

FrontSeven · Nov 2, 2007

This is quite a fish tale.

PatsWickedPissah · Nov 2, 2007

PatriotsReign said:
First of all, has anyone else ever heard of this mysterious security guard this man is talking about?

Secondly, this theory has been discussed several times before. but now somehow, this new member has all the inside infor from a security guard? c'mon shmessy! I think not.

Most posters who come here and immediately post such a "revelation" are typically trolls. Has anyone asked him how he got this information when no one else on the face of the earth has heard it?

Although I think his theory may be correct, as far as this guard goes...

I believe he is lying, plain & simple.

Reign, you called it correctly. The original poster was a hit & run guy droping a FABRICATED story about a security guy. No follow up posts, no corroborating detail. I do not understand the neurological bias inherent in many humans for complicated contraindicative conspiracy theories.

shmessy · Nov 2, 2007

shiva2999 said:
This is a logical fallacy.

The truth or falsity of the OP has no bearing on the veracity of the contention that BB and Robert Kraft planned this whole thing.

If you read back through the thread, you won't see myself or others jumping on this account to justify our opinions.

At this point it is a curiousity, nothing more.

Look, I know it's hard to admit you were a dumbass, especially when you were told by everyone to swallow the dumbass koolaid and there are so many dumbasses out there who swallowed the dumbass koolaid too.

So if you still want to believe Bill Belichick is a dumbass I'd suggest you might want to consider who the real dumbass is.

OK, let's stay on point and stop the personal stuff.

FlyingElvis75 · Nov 2, 2007

PatsWickedPissah said:
Reign, you called it correctly. The original poster was a hit & run guy droping a FABRICATED story about a security guy. No follow up posts, no corroborating detail. I do not understand the neurological bias inherent in many humans for complicated contraindicative conspiracy theories.

Hehe. I was just reading about something like that the other day. Supposedly there's an evolutionary advantage to believing something has a "cause" even if it doesn't - like, it's less harmful to invent a link between two things that aren't linked than it is to miss a link where one actually exists, or something like that. Confirmation bias would supposedly be a side effect, and it would help explain why people invent superstitions, earth spirits, gods, etc. Anyway, I don't claim to really understand it, just thought it was interesting.

Metaphors · Nov 2, 2007

shmessy said:
Agreed. It's only a theory, but I believe while BB actively wanted to get caught, he completely miscalculated the league consequences.

There was no "subterfuge".

I posted on this a while ago and nothing revealed since then has made me think differently.

I don't think Belichick actively wanted to get "caught" (hard to get "caught" when you aren't hiding anything). He would have been happy as a clam if everyone let him videotape whatever he wanted...but he had to anticipate that he would get stopped and get the notice of the league.

Everyone was doing similar stuff, but he was constantly being dumped on about it. Pats complain about tampering with Milloy. "We really don't want to investigate." Pats complain about Dolphins getting Brady's offensive line calls (and mysteriously pitching a shutout out of nowhere). "That's just gamesmanship." Pats videotape something that is available for everyone in the world to see? "Strikes at the heart of competition. Must be stopped for the good of the league. Here's a memo."

He wasn't going to stop unless everyone else did as well. By bringing this out into the open, the result is either:

1) A loosening of the rules regarding video taping on the sidelines
2) A public confrontation on rules violations...not just video taping, but everything else as well.

Either way, Pats win...except as shmessy notes, "he completely miscalculated the league consequences". This miscalulation is out of character for Belichick and that is what throws us. I think the combination of his ego ("you are telling me what information I can and can't gather?"), his will ("I'm coaching the best way I know how and I'm not going to stop") and his pent-up anger ("you're picking a fight with me? have you seen what everyone else is doing?") made him blind to the negative possibilities.

PatsWickedPissah · Nov 2, 2007

shiva2999 said:
This is a logical fallacy.

The truth or falsity of the OP has no bearing on the veracity of the contention that BB and Robert Kraft planned this whole thing.
PWP I agree with that. I agreed with the poster that the 'security guy' claim was most certainly a lie.

I'd suggest you might want to consider who the real dumbass is.

Your posts have been of immense help in answering that for me. Thanks!

So this is the first I've heard of this theory

Phoenix, AZ/Retired

Banned

On the Game Day Roster

Phoenix, AZ/Retired

In the Starting Line-Up

In the Starting Line-Up

Practice Squad Player

Phoenix, AZ/Retired

Pro Bowl Player

On the Game Day Roster

PatsFans.com Supporter

Practice Squad Player

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

PatsFans.com Supporter

Phoenix, AZ/Retired

On the Game Day Roster

In the Starting Line-Up

PatsFans.com Supporter

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