Bad Drafting=Mediocre Results

DarrylS said:

While people criticize the Maroney pick... the other first round picks of the BB era are hard to argue with: Seymour, Graham, Warren, Wilfork, Watson, Mankins, Maroney, Meriweather, Mayo, McCourty, Solder, Jones, Hightower and Easly...

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Saying that Stomper Meriweather was a lousy pick is not hard to argue, at all.

Ben Watson was also not deserving of his 1st-round status. (And after Bill & co. screwed him into
a 6th year in his rookie contract, I bet Watson wished he wasn't a 1st-rounder either.)

You mentioned Maroney twice.

Hightower was not what this team needed at that point of the draft.

And we have absolutely no idea how Easley will turn out (who BTW was limited in practice with a,
ahem, knee issue. Shocking).

goheels22002 said:

True, but the line has not been a weakness until this year...

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The OL was a problem last year too.

goheels22002 said:

True, but the line has not been a weakness until this year. The secondary has been a significant problem in need of improvement since 2008. This is the first year that the secondary is a real strength. To me, the issue has been picking late in every round so that the best available DBs - the so-called "sure things" - are long gone. The current secondary is a nice mix draft picks and veterans FAs and trades.

The offensive line selections over the years have been okay for the most part, not stellar. This year's selections seem to be good ones except for Halapio. I expect Stork to be a solid player for years to come barring chronic injuries, and Fleming looks like a good player.

Question for the veterans around here: would any opening post ever have received as many disagrees and dislikes? It's a useful feature on this new board.

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I disagree with that. There were many on here calling for the line to be addressed before this year. Last year we gave up 40 sacks, up 13 from the year before. Pressure up the middle has been the calling card to stop Brady for a few years now.

The truth is that Brady has covered up for the line for years. Even in Brady's prime the line was just ok, but never great. In 2007 the line gave up 21 sacks for Brady. In 2008 when Cassel was in that same line gave up 47 sacks.

captain stone said:

The OL was a problem last year too.

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Last year, they needed to fix the OC and ORG positions. As of now, they need to fix the OLT, OLG, OC, ORG and ORT positions.


But they've got a great special teams gunner.

Boomer B said:

I disagree with that. There were many on here calling for the line to be addressed before this year. Last year we gave up 40 sacks, up 13 from the year before. Pressure up the middle has been the calling card to stop Brady for a few years now.

The truth is that Brady has covered up for the line for years. Even in Brady's prime the line was just ok, but never great. In 2007 the line gave up 21 sacks for Brady. In 2008 when Cassel was in that same line gave up 47 sacks.

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You're right. I mis-stated that 2013-2014 was the first year in a while that the O-Line needed upgrades which we saw with three picks in the draft. Your citing 2008 as the last time the line sucked makes the point.

The main theme of my post remains the same - that the Patriots address position groups every year, and this year, 2014-2015, it was the offensive line. The move with Mankins was a surprise, but not one I disagree with. He was an aging player with a serious injury history and a big cap number. His toughness will be missed. I expect this line to improve as the season wears on. I hope I'm right.

Boomer B said:

The truth is that Brady has covered up for the line for years. Even in Brady's prime the line was just ok, but never great. In 2007 the line gave up 21 sacks for Brady. In 2008 when Cassel was in that same line gave up 47 sacks.

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I agree. If the just OK line was OK during the SB years, perhaps a just OK line is OK now. Maybe Belichick's strategy to use more resources on defense (now and then) is the correct strategy. After all, the most serious problem now is that last year's FOUR WR acquisitions have produced next to nothing.

The line needs to be OK. Brady has never had a great line. A great line is not a requirement for patriot success.

Last year we had awful receivers; Gronk was out almost all year; Vereen out almost all year, and YET our running game was top 10 and our overall offense was top 5. The OL was good enough. That is what we NEED, good enough.

Sure the interior line last year was a weakness, not worse than WR, not worse that the decimated DT position, but a weakness just the same.

Belichick decided to continue the emphasis on defense, and continue the improvement of the defense. Wilfork and Mayo are back. Revis and Browner are here. Chung has replaced Gregory.
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The OFFENSIVE LINE was indeed addressed. The decision was made to keep Connolly and re-sign Wendell during the transition. Cannon is also here during 2014. Many of us expected Cannon to start at RG this year.

So, the transition OL was/is Solder, (Mankins)/Connolly, Wendell, Cannon, Vollmer. We also have Kline, who has started as a backup OG.

Belichick then chose Stork as our future center. If he doesn't work out, we have the two vets who can play the position (and we would need to try again next year). Belichick brought in Fleming, a RT who might be a future RG. Fleming might only be Cannon's replacement, but even that was needed.

I see nothing to make me believe that OL has not been addressed the OL, or that it cannot be an average line, all that Brady has ever needed.

Could Belichick have done better? Sure! IMHO, Belichick mistakenly believed that he had a starting LG in Cannon and that he had anything in Devey. IMHO, there should have been an additional veteran on the team through camp, competing through the pre-season until the final cut. Then, perhaps, the final cuts would have included Devey or Kline. We might argue at what resources Belichick should have willing to use on such a veteran. Obviously, that is still the case. We MIGHT be able to trade a 4th or 5th for a veteran guard even now.

mgteich said:

I agree. If the just OK line was OK during the SB years, perhaps a just OK line is OK now. Maybe Belichick's strategy to use more resources on defense (now and then) is the correct strategy. After all, the most serious problem now is that last year's FOUR WR acquisitions have produced next to nothing.

The line needs to be OK. Brady has never had a great line. A great line is not a requirement for patriot success.

Last year we had awful receivers; Gronk was out almost all year; Vereen out almost all year, and YET our running game was top 10 and our overall offense was top 5. The OL was good enough. That is what we NEED, good enough.

Sure the interior line last year was a weakness, not worse than WR, not worse that the decimated DT position, but a weakness just the same.

Belichick decided to continue the emphasis on defense, and continue the improvement of the defense. Wilfork and Mayo are back. Revis and Browner are here. Chung has replaced Gregory.
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The OFFENSIVE LINE was indeed addressed. The decision was made to keep Connolly and re-sign Wendell during the transition. Cannon is also here during 2014. Many of us expected Cannon to start at RG this year.

So, the transition OL was/is Solder, (Mankins)/Connolly, Wendell, Cannon, Vollmer. We also have Kline, who has started as a backup OG.

Belichick then chose Stork as our future center. If he doesn't work out, we have the two vets who can play the position (and we would need to try again next year). Belichick brought in Fleming, a RT who might be a future RG. Fleming might only be Cannon's replacement, but even that was needed.

I see nothing to make me believe that OL has not been addressed the OL, or that it cannot be an average line, all that Brady has ever needed.

Could Belichick have done better? Sure! IMHO, Belichick mistakenly believed that he had a starting LG in Cannon and that he had anything in Devey. IMHO, there should have been an additional veteran on the team through camp, competing through the pre-season until the final cut. Then, perhaps, the final cuts would have included Devey or Kline. We might argue at what resources Belichick should have willing to use on such a veteran. Obviously, that is still the case. We MIGHT be able to trade a 4th or 5th for a veteran guard even now.

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A bit part of the problem is that Belichick screwed up on Mankins. That's really the bottom line. That can't be fixed, because Mankins is gone. If the Patriots wanted Mankins gone (something they obviously did), the time to make that move was AFTER the season, not before. That would have given Stork, and hopefully Fleming, a year under their belts, and the team another year to find a Mankins replacement. Instead, Belichick decided he'd screw the pooch one more time. He got away with it when he got rid of Milloy, so he now seems to think it's an everytime thing, despite it not working with Branch, Seymour, Moss or Welker.

So, unless there's another Brian Waters out there, or some team is desperate to trade away a high quality OL just to help the Patriots, this is going to be a season long issue. The question to be answered is whether chewing gum (Wendell) and baling wire (Cannon/Kline) will be enough for this, because the solution is not coming in the form of Mr. Devey.

Saying this OL has been addressed is like saying that signing Curtis Painter proves that a team addressed its QB needs.

BTW, since the Mankins thread has been locked, but this is still news, I'll put it here:

.@MarkyMarcelus Logan Mankins has made a world of a difference. That unit could stand to improve but 100 times better.

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https://twitter.com/JennaLaineBucs/status/518418457541767168

I'd be livid too RT [URL='https://twitter.com/MarkyMarcelus']@MarkyMarcelus

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: @JennaLaineBucs My Pats fan friends were not at all happy with the Mankins trade. Now I know why.

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[/URL]

https://twitter.com/JennaLaineBucs/status/518422996017770496

Deus Irae said:

A bit part of the problem is that Belichick screwed up on Mankins. That's really the bottom line. That can't be fixed, because Mankins is gone. If the Patriots wanted Mankins gone (something they obviously did), the time to make that move was AFTER the season, not before. That would have given Stork, and hopefully Fleming, a year under their belts, and the team another year to find a Mankins replacement. Instead, Belichick decided he'd screw the pooch one more time. He got away with it when he got rid of Milloy, so he now seems to think it's an everytime thing, despite it not working with Branch, Seymour, Moss or Welker.

So, unless there's another Brian Waters out there, or some team is desperate to trade away a high quality OL just to help the Patriots, this is going to be a season long issue. The question to be answered is whether chewing gum (Wendell) and baling wire (Cannon/Kline) will be enough for this, because the solution is not coming in the form of Mr. Devey.

Saying this OL has been addressed is like saying that signing Curtis Painter proves that a team addressed its QB needs.

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The situation is clear, as it has been in all the other cases when a declining star has been cut. Fans wish that he could have stayed another year. Perhaps, you and I agree that Belichick should age spent $7M on Mankins this year. IMHO (and in Belichick's), Connolly is a good enough guard. Personally, I don't believe that Belichick had any intention of keeping Mankins. It was just a matter of getting a trade before the deadline. Fans almost always want stars to stay the extra year at the extra $6M or $7M or $8M depending on the player.

Obviously, if Belichick still though of Mankins as an all-pro, $7M would have been a fine expenditure.

mgteich said:

The situation is clear, as it has been in all the other cases when a declining star has been cut. Fans wish that he could have stayed another year. Perhaps, you and I agree that Belichick should age spent $7M on Mankins this year. IMHO (and in Belichick's), Connolly is a good enough guard. Personally, I don't believe that Belichick had any intention of keeping Mankins. It was just a matter of getting a trade before the deadline. Fans almost always want stars to stay the extra year at the extra $6M or $7M or $8M depending on the player.

Obviously, if Belichick still though of Mankins as an all-pro, $7M would have been a fine expenditure.

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No, the situation is apparently not clear, as you're pointing to the most irrelevant part of the whole thing, which is the money.

And, if BB was definitely going to get rid of Mankins, for money or any other reason, he needs to be fired as GM. If that means he's out as HC, so be it. That kind of stubborn stupidity can't be allowed to keep happening. He's done it too many times already.

And that's coming from someone who thinks Belichick is the greatest coach in the history of the game.

Deus Irae said:

BTW, since the Mankins thread has been locked, but this is still news, I'll put it here:



https://twitter.com/JennaLaineBucs/status/518418457541767168


https://twitter.com/JennaLaineBucs/status/518422996017770496

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Typical Deus. If some random reporter writes something he agree with, it is cold hard facts. If they don't, they are either Patriots homers (if they are Pats writers) and/or don't know anything. Sometimes a writer/analyst can be both in his eyes whether they say what he agrees with or not. See Greg Bedard who he thought was overrated as an analyst when he disagreed with Deus' assessments about the Pats and is now excellent now that he is more critical of the Pats.

I have no idea who Jenna Laine is and whether she know anything about anything and neither does Deus. But of course since she is talking up Mankins in Tampa, Deus will argue she is the best analyst in the league.

2013 takes another hit, albeit in the UDFA range this time:

Patriots waived WR Kenbrell Thompkins today and promoted LB Ja'Gared Davis from the practice squad.

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https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/518507505195167744

It will be interesting to see whether or not Thompkins returns after the game, if this is just because of the Collins/Hightower situation. Reiss' followup tweet doesn't seem promising for that, though.



edit: Following up on the idea of KT returning:

Per source, Kenbrell Thompkins was told the Patriots could bring him back next week, if he clears waivers.

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https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/518510161728901121

Deus Irae said:

2013 takes another hit, albeit in the UDFA range this time:



https://twitter.com/MikeReiss/status/518507505195167744

It will be interesting to see whether or not Thompkins returns after the game, if this is just because of the Collins situation. Reiss' followup tweet doesn't seem promising for that, though.

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Another typical Deus trick. Davis was most likely promoted because Ebner is out as Reiss said in his Twitter, but since Deus hates the Jamie Collins pick he wants to blame him for Thompkins being cut.

For a guy who likes to think he is the smartest guy on the board, he sure isn't smart enough to hide his agendas.

I think the team wanted to draft a guy to replace Mankins. Their hope, I think it's clear from the actions of trading out of the third round, was to take OG Trai Turner out of LSU, a raw but physical specimen of the first order. Turner has been starting for the Panthers, who took him just before us. We traded out to get their fourth (Bryan Stork) and a sixth (Jamea Thomas, CB, Georgia Tech), whom we cut.

We got unlucky. We almost had our guy. He'd look really good at LG. Connonlly at center and someone needs to tell the position coach for the offensive line that Josh Kline started games last year, including the AFC Championship, which he accorded himself very well.