Matthew Slater

RayClay said:

I don't believe that's been resolved. There was an article recently quoting the Patriots lawyer saying they owe him nothing and, of course, he's not unbiased.

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That is true. If AH wins his grievances, he will count against the Patriots cap in the future for 60% ($1,825,200) of the grievance amount. 40% of the grievance amount hit the Patriots cap in 2013.

FWIW - According to FootballOutsiders' tabulation of snap counts Slater was in on 254 special team snaps (51.9% of the special team snaps). His total was the 5th highest on the team behind Collins, Chris White, Ebner, and Dane Fletcher.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

DaBruinz said:

No. What is completely flawed is your attempts at logic. You bounce from one stratagem to another in feeble attempts to make your case seem like it's valid and this is just another example.

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My case, what exactly is my case? That Slater is not inexpensive, I did not say he was overpriced, I did not say he should be released, I just said he is not inexpensive, because he is not.

The Pats didn't draft anyone in advance of letting Carter and Anderson go. They were one year rentals, on the team in 2011 and gone in 2012.
The Pats didn't draft anyone to replace Spikes either. Unless your making the erroneous claim that Collins is going to replace Spikes.

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They drafted Chandler Jones and Jake Bequette instead of resigning Carter and Anderson. They drafted Hightower in 2012, Collins in 2013, and Beauharnais in 2013, and then they allowed Spikes to walk in the offseason of 2014. Spikes is a LB, Collins is a LB, just because they are different type of LBs in terms of play does not mean that Collins was not drafted in preparation for Spikes departure.

The Pats let Green-Ellis go before they drafted Ridley as well.

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2011 leading rushers –
Green-Ellis – 187 attempts, 667 yards
Ridley – 87 attempts, 441 yards
Woodhead – 77 attempts, 351 yards

The only one you could say that they drafted someone in advance (out of the players you mentioned) is Woodhead.

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Wrong!

This idea that the Pats have opted not to pay many key players is flawed beyond belief. You're reaching for straws and coming up empty..

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Reaching for straws, you really are funny, 70% of the Patriots are on rookie contracts.

DaBruinz said:

The conversation was whether or not Slater would be on the team this year. YOU are the one who took it on the tangent of whether they'd pay him in the future. Per usual, you can't even follow the conversation properly. It's no wonder you fail at your arguments all the time.

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DaBruinz said:

Wrong again, junior. You really should grow up and learn that if you are going to have an intelligent conversation with the people on this board, you shouldn't post absolute nonsense the way you do. And you do it on a regular basis.

Everything you've posted in your flailing attempts to prove your point has been wrong. And when challenged, you throw your little hissy fit like you just did.

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How do you know you've won an argument? Because the loser has to resort to posting childish memes because he can't actually defend his point of view.

Thank you for proving my point about you, Brady6..

Brady6 said:

LOL Why you mad tho?

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You're the one who is mad. You're the one calling people "pricks" because your argument has more holes than a spaghetti strainer.

And it's not just me showing you how wrong you are.. That's the funny part..

Brady6 said:

Comparing kickers and punters to Slater is like comparing a quarterback to Slater. There fewer kickers in punters in the NFL, than there are players who can perform the duties of a gunner.


No, I am trying to compare Slater to other players in the NFL who play the same role for their teams.

These are those 10 players cap figures for 2014 –

Bethel -$598K
Lane -$730K
Slater-$2.26M
Easley-$490K
Stuckey-$1.16M
Smith-$762K
Campbell-$656K
Jones -$745K
Davis -$570K
Bademosi-$570K

Izzo was paid around the minimum for his service years every season he was here.

Slater does not play on the field goal protection or field goal block units.

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Mistake #1: using PFF as a source.

Apparently Mike Reiss has been perusing the forum for topics while waiting for training camp to begin.

Checking the locks: Patriots' specialists | espnBoston

Brady6 said:

My case, what exactly is my case? That Slater is not inexpensive, I did not say he was overpriced, I did not say he should be released, I just said he is not inexpensive, because he is not.

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And you'd be wrong that he's not inexpensive. And it's been proven to you.

Brady6 said:

They drafted Chandler Jones and Jake Bequette instead of resigning Carter and Anderson. They drafted Hightower in 2012, Collins in 2013, and Beauharnais in 2013, and then they allowed Spikes to walk in the offseason of 2014. Spikes is a LB, Collins is a LB, just because they are different type of LBs in terms of play does not mean that Collins was not drafted in preparation for Spikes departure.

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Gotta love how you change your story. This is what I am talking about..
Your claim was that the Pats "opted not to pay many key players and instead drafted replacement in advance of their contracts expiring." Then you listed a bunch and you were wrong most of them. Plain and simple. And pointing out that I screwed up on Ridley doesn't change the fact that you were wrong on the others.

Jones and Bequette were drafted AFTER the Pats let Carter and Anderson go. So clearly that doesn't fit the idea that the replacements were drafted in advance of Carters's and Anderson's contracts expiring.

The Drafting of Hightower, Beauharnais and Collins has nothing to do with them letting Spikes go. They let him go because he's got maturity/discipline issues. Still doesn't fit your claim of "opting not to pay key players and drafting their replacement in advance of the contract expiring". None of those 3 are Spike's replacement.

OH, and claiming that because they are both "LB" as if that supports your case is one of the most laughable things you've ever said. You don't draft a guy and set him to be your OLB because you're planning on getting rid of your starting ILB..

Brady6 said:

Reaching for straws, you really are funny, 70% of the Patriots are on rookie contracts.

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And I'm sure that if you look around the league, you'll notice that most teams are like that currently since most teams are carrying 30-37 players who will be cut during training camp. That doesn't support your idea that the Patriots opt not to pay key players and draft their replacements 1 year in advance.

DaBruinz said:

You're the one who is mad. You're the one calling people "pricks" because your argument has more holes than a spaghetti strainer.

And it's not just me showing you how wrong you are.. That's the funny part..

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Have you shown me I was wrong? Has anyone shown me that? I did not say Slater was overpriced, I said he was not inexpensive, have you showed anything to dispute that? No you have not, all you have done is talk in circles and try to discredit what I have posted (failing at it) without adding anything to support your opinion.

I am not mad, your response made you sound like a prick I called you on it. We were having a discussion you added some personal shots that were unnecessary and meaningless to the discussion.

DaBruinz said:

And you'd be wrong that he's not inexpensive. And it's been proven to you.

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How is that? Show me another player that does what Slater does that makes more than him, to make Slater inexpensive?

Gotta love how you change your story. This is what I am talking about..

Your claim was that the Pats "opted not to pay many key players and instead drafted replacement in advance of their contracts expiring." Then you listed a bunch and you were wrong most of them. Plain and simple. And pointing out that I screwed up on Ridley doesn't change the fact that you were wrong on the others.

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No you are wrong about everything, including my changing the story, we opted to draft players to replace veterans in lieu of resigning them.

2011
Light – Solder
Hoyer – Mallett
Green-Ellis – Ridley
Woodhead – Vereen
2012
Carter – Jones
Anderson – Bequette
Chung – Wilson
2013
Spikes - Collins
Mesko – Allen
Gregory – Harmon
Scott - Buchanan
2014 (Potentially)
Mallett – Garopollo
Connolly – Stork
Cannon – Fleming
White – Ridley or Vereen

Jones and Bequette were drafted AFTER the Pats let Carter and Anderson go. So clearly that doesn't fit the idea that the replacements were drafted in advance of Carters's and Anderson's contracts expiring.

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What is your point, we could have resigned them, we did not. We opted for the less expensive rookie contract.

The Drafting of Hightower, Beauharnais and Collins has nothing to do with them letting Spikes go. They let him go because he's got maturity/discipline issues. Still doesn't fit your claim of "opting not to pay key players and drafting their replacement in advance of the contract expiring". None of those 3 are Spike's replacement.

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So Collins is not going to be in the starting lineup instead of Spikes this season? That would make him the replacement, just because they have different styles of play does not mean he was not drafted to fill the hole in the starting lineup left by Spikes.

OH, and claiming that because they are both "LB" as if that supports your case is one of the most laughable things you've ever said. You don't draft a guy and set him to be your OLB because you're planning on getting rid of your starting ILB..

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No then why do you draft a LB in the second round the year before one of your starters is slated to become a free agent? Wow, it is hurting my head talking to you, I need to stop now.

BradyFTW! said:

Mistake #1: using PFF as a source.

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The source was simply because it had a list of players that took the most snaps as a gunner; it was not to reference performance, it was a list of names because not many sites breakout ST players.

DaBruinz said:

How do you know you've won an argument? Because the loser has to resort to posting childish memes because he can't actually defend his point of view.

Thank you for proving my point about you, Brady6..

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http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

Brady6 said:

Have you shown me I was wrong? Has anyone shown me that? I did not say Slater was overpriced, I said he was not inexpensive, have you showed anything to dispute that? No you have not, all you have done is talk in circles and try to discredit what I have posted (failing at it) without adding anything to support your opinion.

I am not mad, your response made you sound like a prick I called you on it. We were having a discussion you added some personal shots that were unnecessary and meaningless to the discussion.

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Clearly you are the one who is mad. And no, my response didn't make me sound like a prick. My response made me sound like someone who had checked your statements and found them to be full of BS. You clearly have an issue with people not just talking your word for it. And god forbid they question your "facts". If they do that, you throw a temper tantrum, as you have done.

Yes, you have been shown to be wrong because Slater is inexpensive considering what he brings to the team. Yes, I have shown that there are other special teams specialists (IE. Kicker/Punter) who are paid more than Slater. You were the one who made the claim about Slater being the highest Cap hit amongst "core four special teamers who do not contribute to the offensive or defensive units" and then proceeded to just talk about Gunners from other teams.. And you only listed the "top 10" as Pro Football Focus rated them.. Considering there are at least 62 gunners not on the Patriots, your list was severely lacking. And, instead of looking at the other teams around the league and getting that info, you threw your tantrum..

Several people have told you that using Pro Football Focus as a source for anything is dangerous at best because none of the people there have any sort of football training. They are all self-taught and their "stats" are based on the "eye test". Much of it is not factual, but their opinions. And this isn't the first time you've attempted to use Pro Football Focus as a basis for making an argument.

Yes, you have been shown to be wrong with your claim that the Patriots have let many key vets go and drafted their replacement 1 year prior to the vet's contract expiring. Two examples in a 3 year period isn't really a damning claim.

You seem to think that the Pats are somehow special in having "70% of their team on rookie deals" at this time of yea. They aren't. Most teams are like that because of the number of rookies and rookie free agents there are. Heck during a 4 year period, if a team only has 7 picks each year and they all make the team, you're talking about 52.8% of the team being on a rookie deal.

Brady6 said:

The source was simply because it had a list of players that took the most snaps as a gunner; it was not to reference performance, it was a list of names because not many sites breakout ST players.

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So, it was a source that didn't actually help you with your argument since it did not contain the list of "core four special teams players who do not contribute on offense or defense".

DaBruinz said:

Clearly you are the one who is mad. And no, my response didn't make me sound like a prick. My response made me sound like someone who had checked your statements and found them to be full of BS. You clearly have an issue with people not just talking your word for it. And god forbid they question your "facts". If they do that, you throw a temper tantrum, as you have done.

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I am not mad in the least bit, I find you to be comical in fact. You have not provided a single fact, you have not offered anything other than your own assertion based on nothing. As far as throwing a temper tantrum, I have not in the least bit, I respond with meme’s because I am tired of wasting my time responding to you.

DaBruinz said:

Yes, you have been shown to be wrong because Slater is inexpensive considering what he brings to the team. Yes, I have shown that there are other special teams specialists (IE. Kicker/Punter) who are paid more than Slater. You were the one who made the claim about Slater being the highest Cap hit amongst "core four special teamers who do not contribute to the offensive or defensive units" and then proceeded to just talk about Gunners from other teams.. And you only listed the "top 10" as Pro Football Focus rated them.. Considering there are at least 62 gunners not on the Patriots, your list was severely lacking. And, instead of looking at the other teams around the league and getting that info, you threw your tantrum..

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Show me a player that plays special teams coverage and does not perform the duties of a kicker, punter, returner that earns more than Matthew Slater. There is not one, so your assertion that he is inexpensive is just WRONG he is the highest paid player in the NFL that performs his duties, that is not inexpensive.

DaBruinz said:

Several people have told you that using Pro Football Focus as a source for anything is dangerous at best because none of the people there have any sort of football training. They are all self-taught and their "stats" are based on the "eye test". Much of it is not factual, but their opinions. And this isn't the first time you've attempted to use Pro Football Focus as a basis for making an argument.

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I do not see anything wrong with PFF, I think it is a creditable source that media members like Mike Reiss, Greg Bedard, and others use consistently, I put more stock in what PFF says than a poster who is so short sighted that they cannot find value in the entire PFF sight.

DaBruinz said:

Yes, you have been shown to be wrong with your claim that the Patriots have let many key vets go and drafted their replacement 1 year prior to the vet's contract expiring. Two examples in a 3 year period isn't really a damning claim.

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No once again, I provided a list of players, you provided nothing, you just run your mouth and hope that is good enough to make people believe you, it is not, you have provided nothing and you never do.

DaBruinz said:

You seem to think that the Pats are somehow special in having "70% of their team on rookie deals" at this time of yea. They aren't. Most teams are like that because of the number of rookies and rookie free agents there are. Heck during a 4 year period, if a team only has 7 picks each year and they all make the team, you're talking about 52.8% of the team being on a rookie deal.

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We have the 2nd youngest team in the NFL.

DaBruinz said:

So, it was a source that didn't actually help you with your argument since it did not contain the list of "core four special teams players who do not contribute on offense or defense".

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It was just a list of players that act as gunners, and the number of snaps they played and how many times they were double-teamed on those snaps. It provided a list of players that perform similar roles as Slater. Do you have an alternate list that shows more players? I ask because I am still waiting for you to show me a player that does what Slater does with a cap hit of more than $2.2M this season. Since Slater is so inexpensive and all.

You analysis seems weak. Presuming that rookies ALL stay on the team for four years is silly, at best.

If you believe that the age of our team is average (like most others), then say so.

If you believe that the number of players on patriot rookie contracts is average, then say so.

The patriots do indeed have a young team, although Brady6 probably overstates a bit.
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Finally, do you truly believe that there are lots of special-teams only players (other than kickers, punters and returners) who make more than Slater? If so, say so. It seems that is the issue that you guys have arguing about.

Slater is paid very well for what he does, as ken pointed out in a couple of posts. I think that he is well worth the money. Few here are arguing this point for 2014. Some choose to negotiate his 2015 contract now, speculating with regard to how much we should want to pay him next year. IMHO, that isn't relevant to the issue at hand.

Is Slater being paid a lot compared to others who do what he does, or not.

DaBruinz said:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/snapcounts

You seem to think that the Pats are somehow special in having "70% of their team on rookie deals" at this time of yea. They aren't. Most teams are like that because of the number of rookies and rookie free agents there are. Heck during a 4 year period, if a team only has 7 picks each year and they all make the team, you're talking about 52.8% of the team being on a rookie deal.

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BradyFTW! said:

Mistake #1: using PFF as a source.

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PFF's not terrible, it's just not good to use to rank players against one another because all those grades were awarded by different people who cover each team. It's like comparing an A from one professor to another one without having any inkling of how difficult a grader that professor is. However, PFF is useful in that the people doing the analysis watch the players very closely, meaning a player with a good grade almost certainly performed well. It's just not possible to use those grades to rate players against one another. PFF's analysis of a single game is much better than their season-long "metrics" for this reason.

Basically, PFF lets us know that Marcus Easley, Justin Bethel, and Matt Slater were all very good coverage players last year, but because each player was graded by a different person, there's no way of saying that one is definitively any better than the others despite the obfuscation by faux-quantification.