Quarterback and Running Back

Big-T said:

He didn't have any last year but there's a video on the draft forum somewhere of what happens when Baylor did use him in the passing game though, he's a home run threat.

Vereen had a number of drops due to trying to catch over his shoulder with a cast on his hand, Bolden just has stone hands.

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It's one play. He scored on a 68 yarder, his other 8 catches gained 39 yards. For his college career he had 9 catches to go with 10 drops, so he's far from a sure thing in the passing game.

Bolden had 76 catches in college and 21 catches last year against 3 drops.

PatsFanInVa said:

I poked around at a few mocks yesterday, and all these people have us taking McCarron at various places (including with trades of various degrees of unlikeliness, usually involving Mallet.)

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This is the key.

Everybody is guessing.

If we work together/share info and don't take any opinions personally, we will reach a consensus that the media will pick up on and write a story about (ex. supafly "flex back" story http://nesn.com/2014/05/patriots-running-back-shane-vereen-wrist-still-isnt-100-percent/)

Besides, we might make the best educated guess with what decision BB is currently is thinking about.

To me it just wouldn't make sense to use a high pick on replacing a guy that probably could've been re-signed for around $2M/season. Unless they're eyeing a monster prospect to be the feature back, it really wouldn't make sense to spend an important pick on someone who should at best get the 3rd most touches at RB. They've gotten guys like Blount, Antowain Smith, and BJGE for next to nothing and I can think of at least 5 other positions that are easily bigger needs than RB.

QB of the future, I could maybe see that if the right guy is there.

unoriginal said:

You do know about me: I've repeatedly pointed out the Pats went with Hoyer as the lone backup when he was a UDFA. I'd be completely comfortable with the sole backup in 2015 being a 2nd-year guy who spent 2014 on the practice squad.

It's hardly lightning in a bottle. The Pats have developed Brady, Cassel, and Hoyer into performing NFL QBs. That's a track record. Meanwhile, while the Pats have drafted Rohan Davey, Kevin O'Connell, and Ryan Mallett as mid-round QBs, only Mallett has "stuck" as a QB, and we still don't know how he'd do with regular snaps/elsewhere. In fact, both Cassel and Hoyer beat out mid-round QBs who were drafted a year ahead of them. I'd probably be more comfortable with a low-round guy being developed at this point, even if it didn't save us draft capital and have the potential to save a roster spot, because of the history.

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Your argument is that the Pats have been remarkably successful developing backup QBs from the late rounds or UDFAs, especially if you count 6th round Brady along with 7th round Cassel & UDFA Hoyer. Interestingly, BB is not that successful with his 3rd & 4th round QB picks (Davey, O'Connell, Mallet) with Mallet being the only success as a #2.

I think the Pats are calibrating their QB evaluation criteria with all the QB visits this year. They may take someone after the 4th round if they think he's a good prospect. Otherwise they're gearing up their evaluation methodology for what could be a franchise betting QB pick in 2 years. If they take nobody this year, the plan for 2015 is to do what they did in the past, sign a FA QB as #2.

unoriginal said:

You do know about me: I've repeatedly pointed out the Pats went with Hoyer as the lone backup when he was a UDFA. I'd be completely comfortable with the sole backup in 2015 being a 2nd-year guy who spent 2014 on the practice squad.

It's hardly lightning in a bottle. The Pats have developed Brady, Cassel, and Hoyer into performing NFL QBs. That's a track record. Meanwhile, while the Pats have drafted Rohan Davey, Kevin O'Connell, and Ryan Mallett as mid-round QBs, only Mallett has "stuck" as a QB, and we still don't know how he'd do with regular snaps/elsewhere. In fact, both Cassel and Hoyer beat out mid-round QBs who were drafted a year ahead of them. I'd probably be more comfortable with a low-round guy being developed at this point, even if it didn't save us draft capital and have the potential to save a roster spot, because of the history.

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I fully understand that Hoyer was the lone wolf and only example of a rookie backup in 2009, but I still think that had more to do with the failure of KOC as a 3rd round pick the year before. I don't think they planned on having a rookie UDFA as their only QB that year. I think it was more of a combination of KOC sucking and Hoyer showing enough to take a chance. I'm not so sure that should be the normal way of thinking.

That said, you make some fine points and I can see your end of the spectrum as well. I'm just speaking on personal opinion, which is different from yours in this case. It's hard for me to throw Mallett in the group as a definite failure like Davey and KOC though, especially since he's done fine as our backup so far and (supposedly) is attracting attention for a trade.

I kind of see your reasoning as being the same as saying "we normally develop late round IOL, so we shouldn't bother with exploring a top 1-3 round pick at center or guard." While pointing out the track record is fine and quite valid, I don't think that should suddenly be the way everyone thinks. Just my 2 cents though, not meaning to sound argumentative.

PatsFanInVa said:

I poked around at a few mocks yesterday, and all these people have us taking McCarron at various places (including with trades of various degrees of unlikeliness, usually involving Mallet.)

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As many know, I'm fine with taking a middle round QB---as long as the other needs are addressed as well.

It's hard to project where McCarron will be going. Some think he could go as high as 1st/2nd round, while others have him mocked to us in the 4th. With an extra 4th round pick in the form of a comp selection that wasn't projected by anyone, it may be seen as a bit of a luxury should one of the top 6-8 or so QBs still be available.

I also don't see the need to trade Mallett to draft a new backup QB for the future, should the right guy be there. It's almost a given that he'll be gone in the spring, and we'll need some talent of some level at the backup position for the future.

supafly said:

I fully understand that Hoyer was the lone wolf and only example of a rookie backup in 2009, but I still think that had more to do with the failure of KOC as a 3rd round pick the year before. I don't think they planned on having a rookie UDFA as their only QB that year. I think it was more of a combination of KOC sucking and Hoyer showing enough to take a chance. I'm not so sure that should be the normal way of thinking.

That said, you make some fine points and I can see your end of the spectrum as well. I'm just speaking on personal opinion, which is different from yours in this case. It's hard for me to throw Mallett in the group as a definite failure like Davey and KOC though, especially since he's done fine as our backup so far and (supposedly) is attracting attention for a trade.

I kind of see your reasoning as being the same as saying "we normally develop late round IOL, so we shouldn't bother with exploring a top 1-3 round pick at center or guard." While pointing out the track record is fine and quite valid, I don't think that should suddenly be the way everyone thinks. Just my 2 cents though, not meaning to sound argumentative.

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If we are, able to trade Mallett (it is a big if) I think Kyle Orton would be someone we could try and acquirer for a future seventh round draft pick or just wait for Dallas to release him, which is likely. Dallas has Weeden and Haine behind Romo. It is reported that Orton is considering retirement but I think the chance to play for a contender and reunite with McDaniels would intrigue him.

On the subject of QB - Jameis Winston, it is reported that he is destroying his draft stock but he is still extremely talented. If he drops to #32 next year when we are selecting would you draft him? The talent is undeniable and maybe Belichick can get him on track as a person, he is young and dumb.

I am uncertain, but I figured I would throw it out there. The kid is a freaking disaster right now with Mike Vick written all over him, but I was not exactly a great decision maker when I was 19 either. Granted I was never accused of rape, or stealing crab legs for that matter.

Brady6 said:

If we are, able to trade Mallett (it is a big if) I think Kyle Orton would be someone we could try and acquirer for a future seventh round draft pick or just wait for Dallas to release him, which is likely. Dallas has Weeden and Haine behind Romo. It is reported that Orton is considering retirement but I think the chance to play for a contender and reunite with McDaniels would intrigue him.

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I'm not sure about any feelings I have about Orton. He's kind of an unknown to me as to whether or not I'd want him. I definitely agree that we could do much worse, that's for sure. I don't know if he'd be able to get the system down any better than anyone else (cheaper), so that'd be my concern.

As far as Orton leaving DAL, he'd have to pay back 3m dollars from his bonus, along with forfeiting a 3m dollar salary from this year as well--so he has about 6m dollars difference in staying another year. Whether or not DAL would cut him, as you say, is a different question.

PatsWickedPissah said:

Your argument is that the Pats have been remarkably successful developing backup QBs from the late rounds or UDFAs, especially if you count 6th round Brady along with 7th round Cassel & UDFA Hoyer. Interestingly, BB is not that successful with his 3rd & 4th round QB picks (Davey, O'Connell, Mallet) with Mallet being the only success as a #2.

I think the Pats are calibrating their QB evaluation criteria with all the QB visits this year. They may take someone after the 4th round if they think he's a good prospect. Otherwise they're gearing up their evaluation methodology for what could be a franchise betting QB pick in 2 years. If they take nobody this year, the plan for 2015 is to do what they did in the past, sign a FA QB as #2.

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I agree, I think this is a dry run and an opportunity to scout the QBs. They may have interest in a late round QB like Logan Thomas or David Fales, last season the Patriots brought Dion Jordan in for a workout, the purpose was to look at him compared to the player they actually had interest in Jamie Collins. Maybe they want to look at Bridgewater and Manziel compared to Thomas, or Bortles and Savage compared to Fales.

supafly said:

I'm not sure about any feelings I have about Orton. He's kind of an unknown to me as to whether or not I'd want him. I definitely agree that we could do much worse, that's for sure. I don't know if he'd be able to get the system down any better than anyone else (cheaper), so that'd be my concern.

As far as Orton leaving DAL, he'd have to pay back 3m dollars from his bonus, along with forfeiting a 3m dollar salary from this year as well--so he has about 6m dollars difference in staying another year. Whether or not DAL would cut him, as you say, is a different question.

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Orton started for McDaniels for two seasons, and was effective, he is only 31 years old, and if he had to start a game, I think he could at least give us a chance to win. Dallas can save around $3,250,000 if they cut him with a June 1 designation so I think it is likely given they signed two backup QBs this offseason.

I do not want to draft a QB this season, and I would bounce at anything pick #75 or higher for Ryan Mallet so he is the best choice in my opinion, I do not think Cleveland would part with Hoyer. Orton could bridge the position to next year when we can position ourselves to draft the heir apparent to Brady.

Brady6 said:

On the subject of QB - Jameis Winston, it is reported that he is destroying his draft stock but he is still extremely talented. If he drops to #32 next year when we are selecting would you draft him? The talent is undeniable and maybe Belichick can get him on track as a person, he is young and dumb.

I am uncertain, but I figured I would throw it out there. The kid is a freaking disaster right now with Mike Vick written all over him, but I was not exactly a great decision maker when I was 19 either. Granted I was never accused of rape, or stealing crab legs for that matter.

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Do not want. (Then again I don't think Brady's replacement will be in this year's draft or next year's, for that matter.)

I love lurking.

supafly said:

I fully understand that Hoyer was the lone wolf and only example of a rookie backup in 2009, but I still think that had more to do with the failure of KOC as a 3rd round pick the year before. I don't think they planned on having a rookie UDFA as their only QB that year. I think it was more of a combination of KOC sucking and Hoyer showing enough to take a chance. I'm not so sure that should be the normal way of thinking.

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Fair enough, the plan wasn't to cut their third round pick after a year, but I'm also not advocating cutting Mallett and installing an UDFA in his place. If the Pats trade Mallett, yeah, a mid-round QB makes perfect sense. There's a hole on the roster now.

supafly said:

That said, you make some fine points and I can see your end of the spectrum as well. I'm just speaking on personal opinion, which is different from yours in this case. It's hard for me to throw Mallett in the group as a definite failure like Davey and KOC though, especially since he's done fine as our backup so far and (supposedly) is attracting attention for a trade.

I kind of see your reasoning as being the same as saying "we normally develop late round IOL, so we shouldn't bother with exploring a top 1-3 round pick at center or guard." While pointing out the track record is fine and quite valid, I don't think that should suddenly be the way everyone thinks. Just my 2 cents though, not meaning to sound argumentative.

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I don't think Mallett is a failure, I think it makes sense for Houston to trade for him (from Houston's perspective). What I said was, we haven't seen Mallett have success yet, as we have with Brady, Cassel, and Hoyer.

I would also be completely fine with the Pats taking an IOL if he was another Mankins, who can walk on to the field and just start. That would improve the team. Depending on many other factors, it might be the move that improves the team the most out of all the other possible moves. I don't think that scenario plausibly exists at QB currently.

As you said, opinions.

ctpatsfan77 said:

Do not want. (Then again I don't think Brady's replacement will be in this year's draft or next year's, for that matter.)

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I tend to agree, I think 2016 would be the optimal year to draft Brady’s heir apparent. It would give him 2 seasons behind Brady prior to taking over if things go as planned and Brady plays out the remainder of this contract.

QB & RB (& lard-ass DT) is not a need This Year. There is no good reason whatsoever why we cannot wait to draft Mallett's & Ridley's (& Wilfork's & Kelly's) replacements Next Year, while we still have much, much greater needs This Year at DE,TE, C/G, SS, G/T & OLB.

captain stone said:

QB & RB (& lard-ass DT) is not a need This Year. There is no good reason whatsoever why we cannot wait to draft Mallett's & Ridley's (& Wilfork's & Kelly's) replacements Next Year, while we still have much, much greater needs This Year at DE,TE, C/G, SS, G/T & OLB.

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You didn't want Wilfork back, but now you don't want to bring in a DT because of Wilfork?

Come on, now...

I indeed did not Wilfork back (or Kelly either); but now that they are back, why invest more resources (i.e.: a draft pick) this year on another NT/DT? We all know that Wilfork's not getting cut, so where is the room on the opening day 53 for another one if nobody starts the season on PUP? Let's see how this year shakes out, then re-visit the matter next off-season. Bill can always sign a UDFA DT or 2 for competition if he so chooses.

captain stone said:

I indeed did not Wilfork back (or Kelly either); but now that they are back, why invest more resources (i.e.: a draft pick) this year on another NT/DT? We all know that Wilfork's not getting cut, so where is the room on the opening day 53 for another one if nobody starts the season on PUP? Let's see how this year shakes out, then re-visit the matter next off-season. Bill can always sign a UDFA DT or 2 for competition if he so chooses.

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Just a few minutes ago, in another thread, you posted:

captain stone said:

I hope there is, because Wilfork should start 2014 on PUP, and be grateful that he has a job here at all.

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You're not being consistent.

The team needs to draft 2 DTs moving forward, and they need to start this year, because they can't be sure of what they're going to get from the current group. And I think we can all agree that the Patriots can find a DT to cut if they take one in round one. It's not as if the depth chart is 100% full of All Pro level players.

If that DT is a gap-shooter like Domonique Easley, then count me in. If he's another lard-ass like Louis Nix, then count me out.