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O yee of Little Faith (or Analysis)


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I guess you missed the 2003 AFC Divisional Playoff Game versus the Tennessee Titans.

David Givens was part to two Super Bowl winning teams.

Keep spewing your nonsense.


I respect your true Patriots fandom but,,, You sound like you would if you were a Broncos troll.

What did Bethel do? Did he catch a TD pass as time ran out like Tompkins did? So what if Givens was part of two Super Bowl teams? Wasn't EarthWInd and Fire too? So what?


Wake Up, Open your eyes... and Smell the roses...

It isn't sacriigious to compare this Patriots edition and AFCCG contender, to those hallowed teams.
 
No, it doesn't. It completely blows your point out of the water, since it puts the lie to your claims. Your O.P. was terrible, and you're embarrassing yourself with your attempted defenses of it. You didn't think your post through, and it shows.


Listen to yourself... Are you that DEPRESSED as to see no hope? Keep proving it to yourself then...
 
I respect your true Patriots fandom but,,, You sound like you would if you were a Broncos troll.
You are the troll demeaning the past accomplishments and talents of former New England Patriots players.

What did Bethel do?
He caught a touchdown pass in the AFC Divisional Playoffs. So with everything on the line, Bethel Johnson showed up in the clutch.

Wake Up, Open your eyes... and Smell the roses...
You have proven yourself in this thread as nothing more than a New England Patriots fair weather fan.
 
Listen to yourself... Are you that DEPRESSED as to see no hope? Keep proving it to yourself then...

I'm not depressed at all. I'm just not going to lie to myself in order to feel better about a football team to which I don't even belong. The Patriots can win this game. I don't need to blow up their skill level far beyond what it actually is in order to see that.

This is two very flawed teams (in part due to injury, in part due to offseason failures by both front offices) battling it out for a chance to be likely underdogs in the Super Bowl. Enjoy it for what it is, rather than pretending that Siliga is Seymour.
 
Jones is still undersized
Spikes is no longer available at all
Collins blows against the run



It depends on how you define "competent", I guess.



You're mixing up your years here, since Branch and Givens weren't even on the 2001 team but

2001 Brown was much better than 2013 Edelman
2001 Patten was much better than any 2013 WR not named Edelman



Yup



Stop. Just stop.

2001 had Light. 2001 Light => 2013 Solder
2001 had Woody. 2001 Woody > 2013 Wendell
2001 had Andruzzi. 2001 Andruzzi > 2013 Connolly
2001 had Robinson-Randall. 2001 Robinson Randall = 2001 Marcus Cannon

2001 D-line was playing the 3-4, but Seymour >>>>>>>>>>>> all 2013 tackles, and Hamilton and Pleasant were still capable players.

At that time Troy Brown was still a guy who was on and off the roster like say Ventrone. Kevin Faulk was the small fumble prone HB who couldn't stay healthy.

Light was a slightly undersized LOT candidate who was a mere ROOKIE. So who offsets Mankins in your O-line expository?

Was FA Andruzzi his equal?

Woody was fat and Way overweight, and you know it. They let him walk. He was a failure and a disappointment.

Robinson-Randall came off the scrap heap and then returned to it. Comparing him to Canon is a hilarious joke. Even comparing him to Svitek is joke.

Seymour was great, but both Hamilton and Peasant were game but way Over-The-Hill FA vets that no one else wanted. And playing out of position too. Neither one was a NT. They actually had to use Seymour sometimes there. BB brought them in to instruct others about his 3-4 that he used in Cleveland.

Comparing Patten to Edelmen of 2013 shows you've lost it. He's more comparable to Edelman or Amendola or probably Collie as a rookie.

I've been careful to not mention, Wilfork, Mayo, Vollmer Kelly and probably Spikes in any of this discussion since they clearly outrank anyone of that era, in their positions. But they are on IR.
 
I always enjoy your thoughts, AZ.

I do feel that you may be a bit on the highly optimistic side here, but it's better than being pessimistic ;)

Thanks supafly..

True, But I wanted to stir people up who were settling into the miasma of Depression.

It delightful though to see rabid Pats fans attacking anyone who criticizes their Religious Idols, and assigning Sainthood to players who may not always be the equals of today, although fondly remembered.

Deus has really gone Round the Bend, but I hope & think it woke him up.
 
I'm not depressed at all. I'm just not going to lie to myself in order to feel better about a football team to which I don't even belong. The Patriots can win this game. I don't need to blow up their skill level far beyond what it actually is in order to see that.

This is two very flawed teams (in part due to injury, in part due to offseason failures by both front offices) battling it out for a chance to be likely underdogs in the Super Bowl. Enjoy it for what it is, rather than pretending that Siliga is Seymour.

Welcome back, Deus from your Dreamworld.

I never said Siliga was anything but a genuine NT candidate who has 3 sacks, and the size to play there, unlike Pleasant or Hamilton. In no shape or form is he Seymour. Chandler is the same size as Willie though, and when he grows up may become his equal.

I think the NFC is way overated, and these warm weather clubs will likely have problems in the Jersey marshes.

Meanwhile GO PATS!!!
 
At that time Troy Brown was still a guy who was on and off the roster like say Ventrone.

What the hell are you talking about? Brown had 101 catches in 2001, following an 83 catch season in 2000.

Kevin Faulk was the small fumble prone HB who couldn't stay healthy.

.... and I didn't mention Faulk. I gave the RB edge to the 2013 team.

Light was a slightly undersized LOT candidate who was a mere ROOKIE. So who offsets Mankins in your O-line expository?

Was FA Andruzzi his equal?

I didn't offer an equal to Mankins. Mankins was clearly superior to Compton. I noted that the rest of the line at least arguably favored the 2001 team overall by doing a player comparison. You were claiming that the lines weren't even close. That's just not the case.

Seymour was great, but both Hamilton and Peasant were game but way Over-The-Hill FA vets that no one else wanted. And playing out of position too. Neither one was a NT. They actually had to use Seymour sometimes there. BB brought them in to instruct others about his 3-4 that he used in Cleveland.

I didn't claim that either was a NT.

Comparing Patten to Edelmen of 2013 shows you've lost it. He's more comparable to Edelman or Amendola or probably Collie as a rookie.

I didn't compare Patten to Edelman of 2013. See, you're so gung ho to play the pretend game that you didn't even bother to really read my post.

I've been careful to not mention, Wilfork, Mayo, Vollmer Kelly and probably Spikes in any of this discussion since they clearly outrank anyone of that era, in their positions. But they are on IR.

You didn't mention the players because they're not available to play in a game where you were talking about available players. Don't act as if you're doing anyone a favor. It's understood that injuries are a big part of the situation. Hell, I included that in a later post, and part of your O.P. was comparing the personnel differences from the last meeting to this one.
 
Welcome back, Deus from your Dreamworld.

I never said Siliga was anything but a genuine NT candidate who has 3 sacks, and the size to play there, unlike Pleasant or Hamilton. In no shape or form is he Seymour. Chandler is the same size as Willie though, and when he grows up may become his equal.

I think the NFC is way overated, and these warm weather clubs will likely have problems in the Jersey marshes.

Meanwhile GO PATS!!!

Your posts in this thread have been an embarrassment, and I wasn't the one off in dreamworld.
 
Apparently someone thought he was better than a 7th round slow, possession only receiver, or he wouldn't have been offered a 5/25 deal way back in 2005 or 2006.

Apt comment.. But we didn't even try to match it either. I liked Givens and I'll never forget the Denver "Purposeful Safety" game and his last second TD. But didn't UDFA Tompkins do a heroic catch like that too?

Who am I to denigrate a posssion WR,without any speed? He was a heady guy who go the most out of his meager talents.
 
Who exactly was on that D line besides Seymour & Willie? OTH Pleasant? Forgetable Miller? We were so desperate for some beef and had to import/rent Mt. Washington in 2004 for a year, before importing Traylor in 2005.

Sorry about your over romanticized faulty memory. When did we finally draft Ty Warren and get a competent strong side DE?


I'll take DEs Chandler Jones, Rob Ninkovitch, Andre Carter, and Sealver Siliga at NT, and Chris Jones at penetrating tackle, along with their 33+ sacks. Too bad Vince Wilfork and Tommy Kelly are hurt though, as this would be a spectacular DL, otherwise. ;);)

??? You're going to make a smart @$$ remark about my faulty memory and you don't even know who was on our DLine back then or when Warren came aboard? I'm not saying that to come off pissy but it struck me as more than a little ironic.

Ty Warren and Ted Washington both joined the team in 2003 and then Wilfork came aboard in 2004.

Ted Washington was the the "BEST" NT in NFL history. There may never be another man with his size, strength, and athletic ability. Combined with Seymour, Warren, Jarvis Green, and at times Willie McGinest in his hybrid role, that DLine was top notch. Our entire defense was amazing. The LB corps were deep and outstanding and the DB's were also top notch. Forget yardage allowed which is a lame way to measure defenses...That defense led the league or was in the top 2-3 in fewest yards per carry, fewest yards per pass attempt, lowest completion pct against, most interceptions, fewest passing TD's allowed, quarterback rating against (by a wide margin), and, yes, fewest points allowed. Our 2003 defense doesn't get the props they deserved but they were amongst the best defenses ever and the DLine was a significant part of that.
 
Apt comment.. But we didn't even try to match it either. I liked Givens and I'll never forget the Denver "Purposeful Safety" game and his last second TD. But didn't UDFA Tompkins do a heroic catch like that too?

Who am I to denigrate a posssion WR,without any speed? He was a heady guy who go the most out of his meager talents.

In hindsight, my comment may not have been as appropriate as it first seemed, due to the fact of having any team overpay at any given time. As you said, we did not choose to match, and my assumption is that they probably never gave an offer like that much thought of matching in the first place. We see this all the time.

The real reason why I brought it up was just because I felt that you undervalued Givens' skills a bit, nothing more. We seem to have a difference of opinions due to how we see a WR like Thompkins at the moment. I personally don't think too much of him myself, and hope to see the position improved upon.
 
Danke Schoen, Mein Herr.:p:p

I don't speak German--but I think my response would be: Sie sind willkommen :)

All in good fun, just so you know. I meant it strictly as a tongue in cheek comment, with a desire to get a slight chuckle from you. If I had a dollar for every time I misspelled a name (or any word for that matter), I'd be rich enough to TRY and pay the refs off this week :cool:
 
Many Pats Fans seem to have subscribed to a form of Depression that we can't field a complete game breaking Pass Offense, so we have no chance.

You are spoiled. You never had that in the Superbowl winning years... Nor a #1 Defense either!

I think he Pats are much stronger today the then, or even the day the Broncos fell earlier this year.

A true NT, Siliga has entered the situation, and the Bronks won't be as productive in the run-a-dope. Siliga wasn't there in the last game. Undersized Verano and Jones were blown off the LOS, while Spikes was limping about. Neither Hightower nor Collins had found themselves back then, either.

The Bronks may even ignore the run invitation, being suspicious, making the Pass Defense even better, at no cost. Manning may be afraid to look a gift horse in the mouth, after the last trap game, offering the run.

The Pats secondary is both now deep and more important, now healthy. That wasn't true last time.

This is looking to me, more and more like a replay of the "The Greatest Show on Turf" game, of some fame. The Pats can actually match up with competent DBs against ALL of Manning's weapons, just like they did to Warner's. Bob Kraft even remarked that he felt that way, too.

Most teams don't have a prayer of doing so, before they have to employ DB scrubs, which then get toasted. Most teams simply don't have the secondary depth, That is Belichick's secret weapon, his 40-53 roster quality, and always has been.

Our present WR corps of Edelman, Amendola, Collie and Vereen (and probably Tompkins and possibly Dobson) is bigger and better than the tiny Brown, Branch, Patten, and Faulk. I'll take Blount, Ridley, Vareen over Antowain, Redmond, and Faulk too, by a country mile.

Today's Pats lines, both the Offensive and the Defensive are much better too.

We fondly remember Seymour and Willie, but it's this DL, that has accumulated more sacks than any in Belichick's history or Petey's, or Tuna's regimes, going all the way back to Raymond Berry's "Squish the Phish" season, 34 years ago.

You don't need a #1 Offense to win a Superbowl or three.
The Patriots were no where near such rarified stature then. Our #3 Offense this year, is better than any we had back then.

The Patriots dominated for several years with a dink and dunk passing game in combination with a fairly good running game. We are much better than that now, as the power run game is much better.

It's going to be delicious and delightful to Upend all the mediot analyst's prognostications, once more. Jump back on the Bandwagon...

A bit pie in the sky? Rose colored glasses sorta? Just one too many trips back to liquor cabinet? Maybe, maybe not. But Brother AZ, sing it out loud! I am all in with you and the way you are seeing it so upbeat. We need more like this!
And I agree 100% that this is a better D the Broncs will face than the one they faced around 8 weeks ago.
 
At that time Troy Brown was still a guy who was on and off the roster like say Ventrone.

Dude, were you born yesterday or something? Troy Brown caught 101 balls in 2001. He was in the middle of the best three year stretch of his career. Any true Pats fan would know this. Are you a Donkey fan or just an @$$. Hahahaa....See what I did there.

Comparing Patten to Edelmen of 2013 shows you've lost it. He's more comparable to Edelman or Amendola or probably Collie as a rookie.

I think you misread the post. There was no comparison of Patten to Jules. I believe the comment said that Patten was better than every other WR except Jules. I think you underestimate how good Patten was. He had a great year (career) in New England. Very good speed and never dropped the ball. I don't know if he's better than Amendola but he was faster so maybe a better fit outside but maybe not as good in the slot. Having said that, Patten made HUGE catches in HUGE games.....Thats got to mean something. Our current WR's hopefully will do the same but as of now they've got nothing on Patten.

I've been careful to not mention, Wilfork, Mayo, Vollmer Kelly and probably Spikes in any of this discussion since they clearly outrank anyone of that era, in their positions. But they are on IR.

Ever hear the names Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ted Johnson, Roman Phifer, or Bryan Cox?
 
??? You're going to make a smart @$$ remark about my faulty memory and you don't even know who was on our DLine back then or when Warren came aboard? I'm not saying that to come off pissy but it struck me as more than a little ironic.

Ty Warren and Ted Washington both joined the team in 2003 and then Wilfork came aboard in 2004.

Ted Washington was the the "BEST" NT in NFL history. There may never be another man with his size, strength, and athletic ability. Combined with Seymour, Warren, Jarvis Green, and at times Willie McGinest in his hybrid role, that DLine was top notch. Our entire defense was amazing. The LB corps were deep and outstanding and the DB's were also top notch. Forget yardage allowed which is a lame way to measure defenses...That defense led the league or was in the top 2-3 in fewest yards per carry, fewest yards per pass attempt, lowest completion pct against, most interceptions, fewest passing TD's allowed, quarterback rating against (by a wide margin), and, yes, fewest points allowed. Our 2003 defense doesn't get the props they deserved but they were amongst the best defenses ever and the DLine was a significant part of that.

I couldn't pay a higher compliment than to call him by his nickname 'Mt.' Washington. Even as a mid season FA pickup, Chris Jones is already the sack equal of undersized Jarvis Green, but 30 lbs bigger.

The LBs of the two Teds and Willie and Roman were good, but It think Mayo, Hightower, Spikes, Collins and Fletcher are comparable. Don''t forget Roman was nearing the end, and Tedy was still converting from a D lineman back then.

As an aside, Weren't a lot of those stats from before Polian outlawed Defense??
 
Ever hear the names Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ted Johnson, Roman Phifer, or Bryan Cox?
Don't forget Willie McGinest and Rosevelt Colvin at the 3-4 outside linebacker position.
 
And I agree 100% that this is a better D the Broncs will face than the one they faced around 8 weeks ago.

Absolutely...

As miserable as I feel they were playing defensively about 6 weeks ago, I am VERY impressed with how they improved starting around the MIA game. The last 3-4 games were much improved, although Sunday will be a much different kind of test for obvious reasons.
 
Don't forget Willie McGinest and Rosevelt Colvin at the 3-4 outside linebacker position.

Thanks Tip.

It was a shame how soon Rosey tore up a knee or was it a hip?. They never had a real opportunity to play together much. I certainly looked forward to it.
 
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