Branch was thown to less in 2011 because there were better options and the health of the TE's were better. That was hardly the case last season for Llyod, who took over Branch's role.
Llyod got 130 targets because there really wasn't many other choices, seeing as how the 2 TE's only played together in 5/18 games last season. On top of that we had zero viable options at WR3 or WR4. Those are much more the actual cause of Llyod seeing 130 targets than what you're claiming--which is that his great skill set got him open.
If that is the case then it solidifies my position not yours. If you are saying he got targets when he wasn't open because no one else was either then how do you knock him for the completion percetanage.
Not everything can be assessed with a statistic. If you are saying it was Lloyds fault that those 130 targets didn't produce more, you have to look at them and determine why. He does not chose to be the target. Unless he is dropping passes, not making proper effort to catch them, running the wrong route, etc, its not on him that Brady threw an incomplete pass. I've offered a number of reasons that are not the receivers fault for incomplete passes.
Claiming that Llyod "got more targets because he was able to get open" is extremely debatable, especially since one of his bigger knocks is his pathetic failure to beat man coverage on a consistent basis.
Who Tom Brady throws the ball to is undeniably a better judge of whether a player gets open than a message board discussion about whether he gets open. This point isn't even worth discussion.
The "reason" you don't understand is because you don't understand what I'm saying.
I'm simply claiming that Deion Branch's 2011 season already outproduced Llyod in YPC and TD's, and he'd have easily outproduced him in overall receptions and yardage too had he been throw at 130 times...
I fully understand what you are saying, but it is not correct. Branch did NOT outproduce Lloyd. And blindly chucking the ball to him when he isnt open wouldn't change that.
Again, you are completely misunderstanding and misusing 'target'.
The team was paying Branch around 1 million dollars for his 2011 production, so there's no way they'd be comfortable paying Llyod much more than 2--2.5 to take on the exact same role, which is extremely reasonable. As I said, he gambled on himself and turned it down to leave. That's on him, but it sure seems as though the team was more than satisfied to have Llyod as a potential WR3 or WR4.
You can't really tell me you have enough information to KNOW what the team was thinking. Who in the world is WR2 if Lloyd is on the roster if it isn't him?
The "getting open" comment from you is an absolute disagreement, so yes--I believe that many of our WR2's despite who they may have been last year would have seen at least 100-110 targets, sure. You're acting like Llyod showed some great skill at getting open, that's hardly the case.
I'm not acting like anything, I am stating fact that Brady chose to throw the ball to Lloyd.
You are acting like Brady just decided to throw to when he wasn't open. Brady does not do that.
Llyod saw that many targets because we had zero WR3 or WR4 options, and there was no deadly combination of AHern/Gronk. That was clearly the difference...not because he showed some great skills at beating his man and getting open.
Where did I say he had great skills at getting open? I said in Tom Bradys eyes he got open a lot. Perhaps you are correct and he wasn't open and Brady is slipping, but how do you knock the guy for a low completion percentage if you say he wasn't open.
You can't have it both ways. You cant say he didn't get open enough to get thrown to that often and then say he should have produced more when thrown to even if he wasn't open.
Brandon Llyod absolutely failed at providing us with any speed, any sort of capacity to beat man coverage, and any semblance of an NFL receiver who can gain YACs and make bigger plays--which also helps to open up the underneath stuff while drawing attention from a safety at times. Llyod absolutely failed at this. What he is anymore = a possession receiver.
He produced over 900 receiving yards. How could the player who you just described, who essentially sucks at everything be the 25th among WRs in receiving yards?
That was 3rd among #2 WRs. You just said the man who was the 3rd most productive WR2 did none of the thing a WR2 is supposed to do well. Does that make any sense at all?
......and all of this once again leads me back to my 2011 Deion Branch comparison. Both are/were good at being possession receivers who know the offense and can get a crucial catch or two every now and then, but either one is able to defeat man coverage, both are extremely slow, and either one provide the type of outside starting caliber WR that we need to defeat opposing defenses come January/February.
Last season Lloyd had more receiving yards than Branch had in any season but his best ever in 2005. I know you want to keep comparing them, but its just not correct.
You seem to be wanting Llyod to be our WR2 again despite his obvious weaknesses at certain skill sets.
You don't have to guess at what I 'seem' to want, or add 'seem' to misstate it.
I have been clear. Right now he would clearly be our WR2, it isn't even close. Of course he could be beaten out, but if we have no one on the roster who has ever proven they can do the things he did last year to get that production, it would be pretty smart having him here.
He's much better slated for a WR3 role, possibly even a WR4 role on certain teams. If Llyod was 1/2 as good as you're claiming as a WR2, then there would be at least five/six NFL teams who'd be looking at him for that role.
He was the 3rd most productive WR2 in the NFL last year. Clearly, as has been intimated, there are other issues going on.
The reality is that no one is even looking at him for a WR3 or WR4 role--
You know this how?
although to be fair, some of that is likely his supposed attitude problems etc, so it's not all just on talent alone, but the bottom line is that there have been a ton of NFL teams who have put up with diva type attitudes over the years..."if" they can show speed and production. Unless you're planning on giving him another 130 attempts next season with a top tiered QB throwing him the ball in an offense he understands, he's not sniffing anything close to 74 catches for anyone else.
Lloyd produced 74 catches on whatever number of plays he was on the field. THAT is his production. The fact that Tom Brady chose to throw to him 56 other unsuccessful time is not his fault, but for the plays he didnt make that he should have, which appear to be few.
If Lloyd had the same 74 catches on 85 targets your opinion of him would be different but his play would have been exactly the same, yet Brady would have thrown it somewhere else 45 times. You are holding it against him that Brady threw to him when he was covered. Thats really the story here.
