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Is it time to call Brandon Lloyd yet ?


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Great point. I find it highly unlikely someone like, say, Donald Jones could put up 67 more yards with Brady than he did with Fitzpatrick.
Donald Jones put up less yards in THREE season combined with Fitzpatrick that Lloyd did last year.
 
You are telling me something I preached more than anyone here when people started BL bashing. I always said his performance on his contract was a bargain. But someone did a ton of work to show what the true numbers meant and it was not as impressive as it looked. Try to find it.

I would take him back. Guy can play and knows the system but I dont run the team

Gernerally when people take production on the football field and try to use extraneous stats to make it look better or worse, it is easy to do, but really lacks the meaning intended.
 
Let me ask this, where was Lloyd last year during the AFC Championship game when Wes couldn't get open at times. Brady had time, but could Lloyd get open? Could he threaten them downfield, apparently not.
 
After this season, people on this board will be more appreciative of a #3/#4 receiving option that caught 74 passes and 911 yards.

Outside of Amendola, Hernandez and Gronkowski we'll be lucky to have anybody else with more than 500 yards receiving.

How do you know what Dobson, Donald Jones, Michael Jenkins or Josh Boyce are capable of?

This system made guys like David Patten and David Givens look like great players. We've done more with less then we have this year.. don't get the lack of optimism.. because they're rookies? Alot of times, younger is better. More flash, more speed, more freshness and everything else that comes with it. And 500 yards receiving is all well, but its about TD's, execution and scoring that really matters.
 
Kind of premature to call it a "really stupid decision."

I agree. This WR corp could be the worst since 2006 or the best since 2007/2008 or anywhere in between. Amendola could show that his past injuries were freak injuries or he could blow out his knee in the first game of the season. The rookies could make an impact. Jenkins could show that he is a decent receiver when he has a QB throwing to him. Jones could show he was a product of bad QBs too.

There is a lot of risk with this receiving corp, but there is a chance that people will be talking how brilliant Belichick was to cut bait with Welker and Lloyd and totally rebuilding the receiving corp to make it as good or better than last year. Far too early to tell.

Personally, I think this staff has potential. I do realize there is a lot of risk though with this group.
 
In regards to Brandon Lloyd's production vs Jones 3 seasons with Fitzpatrick, Who cares? What did Lloyd do for us in the playoffs? During the times when "average" athletes like David Givens and David Patten were getting it done in January. And that was with Fitzpatrick so whats the comparison? And how do you know what Jones can do in this system with Tom and this staff.
 
Again, drops aside, you can't really blame the receiver for the amount of incomplete passes thrown in his direction.

Of course you can !
Getting to the ball (or 'attacking' the ball) while its in the air is very much a part of being a good WR (or TE) as much as it is for being a good DB. The catch radius is not the same for each player, so once the QB throws the ball he no longer has control over how the receiver will fare to get to that ball. Some are better than others (Moss, for example) while others are not as good (Ben Watson, even with WR speed he couldn't beat LB coverage).

It's the same analogy for DBs: most will provide decent man-to-man coverage, keeping up with the receiver, but the great ones will make a play on the ball. It's not a given for every DB to be able to do that.
 
I liked Lloyd, but I didn't know about him being a headcase. If BB thinks it's time to bring him back, I'll support it. I know he knows what is best for his team.
 
I'd still consider Llyod for a depth spot or at the very least--insurance as a WR3 or WR4. I wouldn't mind him at all taking over Branch's role that we've seen in the past since he has the familiarity with the scheme and did have some rapport with Brady. As I said earlier, my main concern and potential 'dealbreaker' to this getting done would be how much they expect Llyod to contribute + obvious value/compensation.

I don't think it'd be fair to say that he didn't produce, because he caught 74 balls; but I also don't think it's fair to act like it was quite as good as he appeared by that statline either. 130 targets is a lot of looks, and there were some very obvious weaknesses in his game.

In the end it appears that they were fine with him staying on to assume a lesser role with lesser production, but that he wanted to gamble on himself--which we can all respect.

These are my thoughts regarding my personal feelings about Brandon Llyod coming back. I think they are fair and reasonable. You may feel differently.

Unless there are drops you can't blame completion percentage on the target. He doesn't chose to be thrown to.
There are a number of variables that would affect that, including the length of the throw (if player A is running routes 10-30 yards downfield and player B 1-10 there will be a dramatic difference in comp % that has nothing to do with the receiver).
Another is the QB decision of whether the receiver is open. Qbs throw to open receivers when they reach them in progression. If the definition of open is different from one player to another, the results will be different.
This is also a factor of the routes run as well.

It seems wrong to me to say Lloyd should have done more with his targets unless he dropped the pass. What you are saying is if Brady thought he was open and threw a bad pass, or a defensed pass that detracts from the catches Lloyd made, and that just doesnt jive with me.

Targets are not determined in advance. You have to show your QB you are open to be the target. Again, drops aside, you can't really blame the receiver for the amount of incomplete passes thrown in his direction.

You lost me a little bit, but I think your overall points are that:

1. We cannot always take stats and find as much reasonable analysis as it may initially appear

2. You don't see as much of a relationship to Llyod's role and numbers in comparison to Deion Branch's role in 2011 as I seem to, despite the fact that Lloyd averaged less per catch, and had less touchdowns while receiving 130 overall targets.

3. We can't claim that it's Llyod's "fault" for "only" catching 74 balls on 130 targets because there are plenty of other factors to take into acct, which I would agree with and find totally reasonable.


My main point to all of it is that I believe that the team would have been fine with Llyod potentially being a WR3 or WR4 here this season, and that is where my 2011 Deion Branch comparison comes into play. Let's remember that Deion Branch caught 51 balls that year (compared to BL's 74 last yr), BUT he also had a higher YPC and also more TD's--not that I find the TD statline extremely relevant but it should be noted.

No one was extremely worried about losing Branch after the 2011 season, but that situation has changed this year due to our fear of not having sufficient enough experience and talent. I would agree with that notion, but at this point it appears as though Llyod is nothing more than a possession type receiver playing the WR3 or WR4 role that Branch played in 2011. While I agree that is an important role to have, it also should be noted that Branch would have easily surpassed Llyod's production last year had he been targeted 130 overall times, so the Patriots apparently aren't quite as worried as we seem to be about this.

Your concern with the 130 target number is appreciated, but it's entirely possible that the team feels that there are better talented (or if not talent, then value--which is probably the better choice in this situation with BL) players who can probably produce just as much with 130 targets.

My bottom line stance is that I'd like to see him come back to play that WR3 or WR4 role, but that is simply due to the uncertainty of the current WR situation. I would love to see him come back for a fair price, and that is apparently exactly the idea that the team had when they offered him a reduced rate. He does have obvious weaknesses in his game that can be improved upon for a WR2, but it's always good to have that kind of experienced player as insurance--not to mention the things that he did right. I am rather surprised that another team hasn't scooped him up as at least a WR3, so maybe that paints a deeper storyline than what we've originally thought about his "attitude" or managability issues, I really don't know.
 
I liked Lloyd, but I didn't know about him being a headcase. If BB thinks it's time to bring him back, I'll support it. I know he knows what is best for his team.

All the signs point to Lloyd as having some kind of a mental health problem. He's been reported as being up and down, communicative and then sullen, unpredictable, that sort of stuff. He's a talented receiver but erratic. It could be biological or maybe the aftermath of unreported concussions. A lot of the reports resembled the reports on Junior Seau in his last couple of years.

It would be great if he were able to get some effective treatment and stick with a team. I thought the guy was a great #2 receiver. If he could deliver 950+ yards receiving with this group of receivers, it would be huge. I just hope he's okay.

http://www.csnne.com/blog/patriots-talk/why-brandon-lloyd-isnt-part-patriots-plans

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/this-just-in/21183966/fauria-dc-pats-should-pass-lloyd
 
Lloyd is deathly allergic to contact. He won't fight for the extra yard or attempt to make a play. His idea of the perfect play is catch the ball then fall into a heap onto the ground. Just disgusting. The guy has talent but no heart and apparently has additional baggage as well. No thanks. The Lloyd ship has sailed. May it never return to Foxboro!
 
Lloyd is deathly allergic to contact. He won't fight for the extra yard or attempt to make a play. His idea of the perfect play is catch the ball then fall into a heap onto the ground. Just disgusting. The guy has talent but no heart and apparently has additional baggage as well. No thanks. The Lloyd ship has sailed. May it never return to Foxboro!

Oh yes, we'd be much better with receivers who are better after the catch but worse before it:rolleyes:
 
Oh yes, we'd be much better with receivers who are better after the catch but worse before it:rolleyes:

Danny Amendola in my opinion is alot better then Brandon Lloyd before or after the catch. He runs better routes, he is alot quicker, smart and has great hands. His only knock was his health but that can change. And Michael Jenkins is very solid and turning heads in the OTAs. He is working hard and impressing and has the experience. He doesn't have to be a star to be a solid to good contributor (Patten is an example). Plus he has produced pretty well for the quarterbacks he has had to play with. And then Dobson has that size and speed combination and Boyce smooth in and out of his routes, just needs that foot to heel. And with rookies, you never know but they sound pretty well polished for young bucks.. So there is plenty of competition, that is can out perform Lloyd before the catch.
 
Danny Amendola in my opinion is alot better then Brandon Lloyd before or after the catch. He runs better routes, he is alot quicker, smart and has great hands. His only knock was his health but that can change. And Michael Jenkins is very solid and turning heads in the OTAs. He is working hard and impressing and has the experience. He doesn't have to be a star to be a solid to good contributor (Patten is an example). Plus he has produced pretty well for the quarterbacks he has had to play with. And then Dobson has that size and speed combination and Boyce smooth in and out of his routes, just needs that foot to heel. And with rookies, you never know but they sound pretty well polished for young bucks.. So there is plenty of competition, that is can out perform Lloyd before the catch.

Word on the street is that after Amendola there is a steep drop-off , while everyone else might have potential to be productive it's nothing more than potential at this point.

If the other receivers are that strong they should easily beat him out in TC, what's the problem with additional competition?
 
These are my thoughts regarding my personal feelings about Brandon Llyod coming back. I think they are fair and reasonable. You may feel differently.



You lost me a little bit, but I think your overall points are that:

1. We cannot always take stats and find as much reasonable analysis as it may initially appear

2. You don't see as much of a relationship to Llyod's role and numbers in comparison to Deion Branch's role in 2011 as I seem to, despite the fact that Lloyd averaged less per catch, and had less touchdowns while receiving 130 overall targets.

3. We can't claim that it's Llyod's "fault" for "only" catching 74 balls on 130 targets because there are plenty of other factors to take into acct, which I would agree with and find totally reasonable.


My main point to all of it is that I believe that the team would have been fine with Llyod potentially being a WR3 or WR4 here this season, and that is where my 2011 Deion Branch comparison comes into play. Let's remember that Deion Branch caught 51 balls that year (compared to BL's 74 last yr), BUT he also had a higher YPC and also more TD's--not that I find the TD statline extremely relevant but it should be noted.

No one was extremely worried about losing Branch after the 2011 season, but that situation has changed this year due to our fear of not having sufficient enough experience and talent. I would agree with that notion, but at this point it appears as though Llyod is nothing more than a possession type receiver playing the WR3 or WR4 role that Branch played in 2011. While I agree that is an important role to have, it also should be noted that Branch would have easily surpassed Llyod's production last year had he been targeted 130 overall times, so the Patriots apparently aren't quite as worried as we seem to be about this.
This is where you get off track. You don't get targets because you get them, you get them because you are open. Branch gets fewer targets because he gets open less. Throwing to him when he is covered wont get you more production.

Your concern with the 130 target number is appreciated, but it's entirely possible that the team feels that there are better talented (or if not talent, then value--which is probably the better choice in this situation with BL) players who can probably produce just as much with 130 targets.
If you mean they are changing the offense and do not wish to throw to the type of routes and area of the field that Lloyd got targets that is possible. But you seem to be saying someone else would have gotten open just as often yet caught more for some reason I don't understand.

My bottom line stance is that I'd like to see him come back to play that WR3 or WR4 role, but that is simply due to the uncertainty of the current WR situation.
We dont have a WR2 that I have any confidence in being as good as Lloyd.



I would love to see him come back for a fair price, and that is apparently exactly the idea that the team had when they offered him a reduced rate. He does have obvious weaknesses in his game that can be improved upon for a WR2, but it's always good to have that kind of experienced player as insurance--not to mention the things that he did right. I am rather surprised that another team hasn't scooped him up as at least a WR3, so maybe that paints a deeper storyline than what we've originally thought about his "attitude" or managability issues, I really don't know.
People who change jobs a lot are people to be worried about.
 
This is where you get off track. You don't get targets because you get them, you get them because you are open. Branch gets fewer targets because he gets open less. Throwing to him when he is covered wont get you more production.


If you mean they are changing the offense and do not wish to throw to the type of routes and area of the field that Lloyd got targets that is possible. But you seem to be saying someone else would have gotten open just as often yet caught more for some reason I don't understand.


We dont have a WR2 that I have any confidence in being as good as Lloyd.




People who change jobs a lot are people to be worried about.

We don't need our rookie WR's to come in and be automatic game breaking stars or even just stars though it would be a plus and a luxury to have. We just need them to be productive, which any productivity in an offense with the talent that we have can help that much. And being productive is not too much to expect, especially from highly regarded and scouted potentialed prospects at the position like we have. Because of guys like Aaron Hernandez and Danny Amendola and those running backs and lets not forget how great Tom still is.. you don't need another GREAT WR or even probowler just somebody that can contribute and be productive and there have been plenty of rookie WR's across the league that have been productive their rookie seasons, with way lesser quarterbacks and an offensive staff then we have. There have even been some that have went on to be stars with lesser quarterbacks and staffs their rookie seasons in the past, across the league, and all we need are solid numbers or consistent productivity to help out our go to guys and thats it. Because Tom is still Tom and will make the offense run like clockwork, Josh McDaniel will call great plays and Bill will put them in position to be successful. Just give them a guy that can produce and they'll make everything else work. Would having Lloyd again hurt, no but if we don't have him it certainly won't be the end of the world or even a drop off in my opinion. Besides, we have more field stretchers this year by far.
 
Great point. I find it highly unlikely someone like, say, Donald Jones could put up 67 more yards with Brady than he did with Fitzpatrick.

Donald Jones put up 443 yards last year as a #2. Brandon Lloyd put up 911 as a #3 and #4 when Gronk was healthy. Get your facts straight.
 
Oh the horror, I hate moving the chains:rolleyes:

Yet again, which receivers that are available are going to come in and be more productive?

Roll your eyes at Belichick - who didn't think he was worth keeping at his already low salary and cut him, taking the cap hit when an agreement on a reduced salary couldn't be reached.

Now, on top of his cap hit, you're expecting Belichick to expend more salary and cap space on him?

If BB valued Lloyd he'd still be here.
 
Donald Jones put up 443 yards last year as a #2. Brandon Lloyd put up 911 as a #3 and #4 when Gronk was healthy. Get your facts straight.

Based on that logic, our #1 WR in 2006 should never have been cut
 
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