Why the love affair with Julius Peppers?

supafly said:

How do you justify giving an outside player, who will be a gamble, as much if not more--than the important players who we need to sign and appreciate now?

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While I do mostly agree with you, Colvin was pretty much exactly that sort of gamble.

supafly said:

At this point, all I can ASSUME is that you like to argue.

I was merely stating (try this one more time) that your assumption is that he will go from wanting to be one of the higher paid players in the league to taking HALF the money. My assumption is that he would be bringing more to the table by proving his value in versatility through being able to play up on the line, and also switching to OLB. Like I said, it would have to be close to the Suggs situation, and probably then he would still want a little more money.

How does a player take LESS money by proving that he could be used in many different formations, thus making him MORE versatile

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Not so much, but it is hard not read your comments as argumentive and antagonistic, when you capitalize entire words and go out of your way to repeat them and embelish them.

No, it was your assumption that I believed he would take half the money. That 17 million is most likely not going to be paid to him and even if it is, it doesn't prove worth.

No other team is going to give him 17 million. Haynesworth contract is essentially 4 years at 48 million. If 11 - 12 million per year is his value as a DE then what is his value as a LB?

He hasn't proved that he is more versatile. When has he played OLB or with his hand off the ground?

Potential is worth a warm bucket of spit.

So my point is:

1. He is not worth 17 million a year
2. He would never see 17 million a year from any team other than Carolina - and even that is unlikely
3. 8 million would be about 75% of his worth as a DE
4. 10 million or more would be a lot of money for a LB and would make him the 2nd highest paid LB in the league
5. If he wants to make more than Freeney/Allen etc.. then he needs to stay in the 4-3 or at least pretend to be indifferent.

mgcolby said:

He hasn't proved that he is more versatile. .

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Exactly. He is going to a position where he HAS TO BE more versatile. Hes proven hes an elite 4-3 end. He hasn't proved anything as a 3-4 OLB.

supafly said:

Yes, I agree with everything you just said. What the problem is however, is what it would do to the players who have given their 'all' or best on our team over the past few yrs. How do you justify giving an outside player, who will be a gamble, as much if not more--than the important players who we need to sign and appreciate now? If next yrs salary cap does not have a ceiling then maybe we could do all of this then. I have my doubts as to how we could pull off a higher priced contract, (you and I are arguing over how much that contract would be, but the fact is it would be higher priced) and still take care of our own--without changing the face of the team. After all, we have excelled as a team, not giving in to one-player deals

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Alright I think we are getting crossed up here between the seperate posts. I have no idea how it would impact the locker room, in all honesty it shouldn't, but you never know. The players mindset as a bunch is foolish. But many folks wondered what AD's contract would do and it didn't seem to affect things. Vrable recently said that the mentality in NE is that each player needs to deal with their personal situation and once they sign and are "happy" they need to show up and play football.

I agree with bonzoburns. Peppers weakness is in the run, which is Seymours strength. he is too big to fit in at OLB, which I believe, would expose his weakness even more. I just don't see a good fit. In a choice between Peppers and Jason Taylor, I think Taylor would fit in better as a situational OLB.

mgcolby said:

Not so much, but it is hard not read your comments as argumentive and antagonistic, when you capitalize entire words and go out of your way to repeat them and embelish them.

No, it was your assumption that I believed he would take half the money. That 17 million is most likely not going to be paid to him and even if it is, it doesn't prove worth.

No other team is going to give him 17 million. Haynesworth contract is essentially 4 years at 48 million. If 11 - 12 million per year is his value as a DE then what is his value as a LB?

He hasn't proved that he is more versatile. When has he played OLB or with his hand off the ground?

Potential is worth a warm bucket of spit.

So my point is:

1. He is not worth 17 million a year
2. He would never see 17 million a year from any team other than Carolina - and even that is unlikely
3. 8 million would be about 75% of his worth as a DE
4. 10 million or more would be a lot of money for a LB and would make him the 2nd highest paid LB in the league
5. If he wants to make more than Freeney/Allen etc.. then he needs to stay in the 4-3 or at least pretend to be indifferent.

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All your points are great, but it still comes down to signing an outside player, who is unproven at his position of need here, to a major contract. What we're arguing about is the worth of that yearly salary. My point was I doubt that he'd go from either making 17 this yr,(yes with Carolina, no other team has tagged him at 17 million, I understand) or signing another major deal at approx 11-12 mill / per, to taking some 8 million per yr deal with us. If that is making an assumption, (which it is) then I am fine with it

mgcolby said:

Alright I think we are getting crossed up here between the seperate posts. I have no idea how it would impact the locker room, in all honesty it shouldn't, but you never know. The players mindset as a bunch is foolish. But many folks wondered what AD's contract would do and it didn't seem to affect things. Vrable recently said that the mentality in NE is that each player needs to deal with their personal situation and once they sign and are "happy" they need to show up and play football.

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Yes but in AD's year, we didn't have the contractual needs of signing a Wilfork or a Seymour. We also had just extended Sey, and shored up the O line. We were not in the same situation.

Synovia said:

Exactly. He is going to a position where he HAS TO BE more versatile. Hes proven hes an elite 4-3 end. He hasn't proved anything as a 3-4 OLB.

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Which is why it's even more of a gamble. But the argument was about what he would be wanting money-wise as a deal. I am sure at the very least he would be looking at Suggs' deal as just a landmark, or jumping off point. My whole argument is that he would not go from where he is now down to 8 mill / yr. In his mind, and his agents mind, he would be stating his versatility. I understand that his versatility has not been proven--that supports my argument of not expecting him to be here even more. But it was from his point of view, what he would be expecting.

KY Pats Fan said:

I agree with bonzoburns. Peppers weakness is in the run, which is Seymours strength. he is too big to fit in at OLB, which I believe, would expose his weakness even more. I just don't see a good fit. In a choice between Peppers and Jason Taylor, I think Taylor would fit in better as a situational OLB.

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I don't get the "he is to big" thinking. Yes, most people his size couldn't play OLB because they are to slow. But Peppers is anything but slow, he runs a high 4.6 which is in the range of the top end running backs coming out of college this year.

A 4-3 end is rarely going to be looked at as a run stopper. That is the OLB and DT responsibility (for the most part) in a 4-3. More often than not the end is stunting or picking a side with the priority of getting to the QB, which leaves him vulnerable to cutbacks/adjustments by the RB. Freeney and Allen are prime examples of this.

The only edge that Taylor has is that he made the transition and did it well. Peppers is listed as an inch taller and 30 LBS heavier than Taylor. Yet, Peppers is faster and 5 years younger.

supafly said:

Yes but in AD's year, we didn't have the contractual needs of signing a Wilfork or a Seymour. We also had just extended Sey, and shored up the O line. We were not in the same situation.

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Good point. I honestly think it will be tough to resign Seymour unless BB is ready to break the bank. And obviously that would be tough if we signed Wilfork and Peppers. Next offseason is going to be extremely interesting.

Synovia said:

While I do mostly agree with you, Colvin was pretty much exactly that sort of gamble.

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I don't know that Colvin in 03 playing the same position was that much of a gamble as Peppers would be. It also was not the same situation, again, in terms of signing our own players who we intended of keeping. We didn't have franchise type players who had contributed so much, and had such an upside left, like a Seymour or Wilfork, or Mankins, Neal etc. We may have had Milloy coming up, but the thinking is he was on the downside of his career. That is why the situation is so different.

Like I said, if it was next year, and we had all kinds of money to spend--then I'd be all for it. We'd be able to take care of some of our own, take care of Brady (who should be taken care of after the next big signing or 2) and go after a big spender like Peppers. My whole argument is that I don't see how we'd ever be able to afford it now. Whether he wants 50 million, 60 million, or whatever. If that's 10 mill/per, 12 mill/per, or even 9 mill/per (that, I guess was the disagreement between Mgcolby and I)

I'm also not a fan of the idea of signing him for the reasons others have listed- no history of playing with his hand up, no evidence that he can play in space and potentially a big liability in pass coverage. If I were an O co-ordinator, I would want to get a decent receiving RB/ slot WR or TE matched up with him or into his area of responsibility. Of course, he could turn out to be a natural, but I am sceptical.

mgcolby said:

Good point. I honestly think it will be tough to resign Seymour unless BB is ready to break the bank. And obviously that would be tough if we signed Wilfork and Peppers. Next offseason is going to be extremely interesting.

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Yes, that is what I was trying to say exactly. If we are going to 'break the bank,' then it would surely be one of our own. I certainly feel that we'd have to break the bank to reel in Peppers, and when you realize our own needs + the gamble of him/his positioning, that is why I feel it'd be too costly. I believe we both agree on this. What we don't necessarily agree on, is how much it would cost to bring Peppers here. I think it would be more, while you think it would be less. And I'm cool with that, and that's what these boards are for--when you take away the sh!tty attitude and name calling (not saying just you, but in general)

I heard today on the radio that before they cut Lucas; the Panthers were only like 50k under the salary cap. They have made no deals this off season.
After signing Gross they have no $$ to do anything. Jake is due about 11 mil this year and we all know he's not worth it but John Fox loves him.

Not sure if I want to see Peppers on the Pats but I do believe he can be had for less than people think.

carolinatony said:

Not sure if I want to see Peppers on the Pats but I do believe he can be had for less than people think.

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I believe he can be had for less than people think trade-wise / draft picks etc., because of Carolina's cap space problem. I'm just not too sure about whether or not we could actually afford to pay him, that's all

mgcolby said:

I don't get the "he is to big" thinking. Yes, most people his size couldn't play OLB because they are to slow. But Peppers is anything but slow, he runs a high 4.6 which is in the range of the top end running backs coming out of college this year.

A 4-3 end is rarely going to be looked at as a run stopper. That is the OLB and DT responsibility (for the most part) in a 4-3. More often than not the end is stunting or picking a side with the priority of getting to the QB, which leaves him vulnerable to cutbacks/adjustments by the RB. Freeney and Allen are prime examples of this.

The only edge that Taylor has is that he made the transition and did it well. Peppers is listed as an inch taller and 30 LBS heavier than Taylor. Yet, Peppers is faster and 5 years younger.

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Peppers runs a 4.68 but straight line speed is not the issue at hand. At 290 lbs, his issue is agility and change of direction. Do you think he will be able to make an open field tackle? By the way, most top end running backs run around a 4.5 or less.

bunzoburns said:

Peppers runs a 4.68 but straight line speed is not the issue at hand. At 290 lbs, his issue is agility and change of direction. Do you think he will be able to make an open field tackle? By the way, most top end running backs run around a 4.5 or less.

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Not in this years draft. The "top" backs in the draft were in the 4.6 range which as we both know is slow and that is what I was referrring to. Yes, I think Peppers is agile enough to make an open field tackle.

I'll say this, I believe the guy is more agile than Vrabel and he played the outside pretty well.

well there ya go mgcolby:

"The Patriots were already looking ahead to the possibility of acquiring Peppers when they shipped Cassel and Vrabel to Kansas City, NFL sources say, because they wanted to clear the salary-cap space necessary to sign Peppers to a new contract that would put him among the higher-paid defensive players in the league"

more assumptions, but take it for what it's worth

bunzoburns said:

Peppers runs a 4.68 but straight line speed is not the issue at hand. At 290 lbs, his issue is agility and change of direction. Do you think he will be able to make an open field tackle? By the way, most top end running backs run around a 4.5 or less.

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Someone should really let BB know this information. Hopefully its not to late.

strongside said:

Someone should really let BB know this information. Hopefully its not to late.

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Those can be corrected. As i said before BB knows what hes doing. TRansitioning Peppers to an OLB in a 3-4 will be easy!! I think Peppers will be a standout at 3-4 OLB. He just needs alot of time to study the playbook and hang out with AT for a while!