I want teams to fear our defense

VJCPatriot · Jan 19, 2009

I agree, I think it's more the players than the scheme or the 'emotion' as someone put it. We don't have an enforcer in the defensive backfield and we lack a threat passrusher like we had with McGinnest. If we can find decent replacements for Harrison/McGinnest that would take our D to another level. As we've seen in this year's playoffs, the stronger D's tend to dominate. And ok the Card's D didn't look dominant but they did get the stops when they needed em.

rsd · Jan 19, 2009

So to summarize the "geniuses" in this thread, the Patriots defense needs to be more physical, intimidating, play with more emotion, stop being boy-scouts, be more aggressive, hit harder, and make big plays.

Hold the phones, I'm going to send the Memo to BB right now!!!! How could he have missed these easy fixes, while us geniuses here on this messageboard clearly figured it out.

The Patriots 2008 defensive shortcomings definitely do not have to do with injuries, young players learning the system, some aging players, and a lack of talent in some spots (D.O'neil) due to the aforementioned other items (as well as some possible questioning of last few drafts).

Despite all these shortcomings, the Patriots have as many SB wins as the "Scary" defensives of Pittsburgh and Baltimore combined in the last 10 years.

EDIT:

I will make it perfectly clear. I think it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of adjectives that do not have any meaningful correlation to defensive success while watching Pittsburgh/Baltimore play. Sure you can send the house at the QB and hit the other team hard, but if you have guys like D.O'Neil covering a WR, you're pretty screwed no matter what. What I'm saying it is about talent and players knowing their job. Some players (O'Neil) lack the former while younger ones tend to lack the latter (Guyton, Woods, Wilhite, *sigh* O'Neil,etc).

What kills me is that I think the Defensive really improved by the end of the year once the corners become a little more solid, and I would've loved to see what they could've done in the playoffs. Who is to say they couldn't have had the same success as the Cardinals, whose Defensive I would not take over the Patriots.

That's the thing with the NFL nowadays, you just need to get to the playoffs because after that it truly is a crapshoot. Unfortunately the Patriots missed out this year.

RayClay · Jan 19, 2009

VJCPatriot said:
I agree, I think it's more the players than the scheme or the 'emotion' as someone put it. We don't have an enforcer in the defensive backfield and we lack a threat passrusher like we had with McGinnest. If we can find decent replacements for Harrison/McGinnest that would take our D to another level. As we've seen in this year's playoffs, the stronger D's tend to dominate. And ok the Card's D didn't look dominant but they did get the stops when they needed em.

I've yet to see someone tackled by a scheme. I realize our D is collaborative, but it makes a big difference if a young Bruschi or a Biesel is delivering the hits.

RayClay · Jan 19, 2009

SVN said:
our Defensive scheme is much different from balt or pitt so dont expectthe pats to be become these aggressive pass rushining type Ds. BB likes to play sound coverage and disguising with minimal people used to pressure in order to create confusion and generate takeaways or sacks because of coverage.
you will never see the pats blitz like the steelers all the time

You make good points. Still aggressive defenses have aggressive athletic players. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore tend to be overstocked at LB, while we're chronically understocked.

gpds69 · Jan 19, 2009

this is what we do...
Sign

Dunta Robinson
Mike Brown or Sean Jones
Karlos Dansby or Channing Crowder
Trade for Julius Peppers
Draft Outside LBS
Get younger at DL and SS FS

there we go... Defense is fixed

SVN · Jan 19, 2009

RayClay said:
You make good points. Still aggressive defenses have aggressive athletic players. Teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore tend to be overstocked at LB, while we're chronically understocked.

yes but they are very aggressive pass rushing type LB's ...well mostly.BB's LB drop into coverage as much which is why he doesnt want or hasnt wanted any new/inexperienced guy playing the position.
iam sure woodley and harrison would be good in our scheme but they wont be as much they are in the pitt defense.
Emotion is good but plying sound coverage and playcall is more important. The steelers pass rush and zone blitz if picked up by someone like brady routinely did can lead big plays in the passing game. Its something BB doesnt take a chance with unless in the RZ when the pats blitz a lot at least in the romeo days becuse there was less space to throw.Plus BB like parcells likes big LB's for the same reason of coverage and playing physical i guess.
The pats are a very physical team, just because they dont jump aorund like the steelers and ravens doesnt mean they arent. Just the 2008 roster isnt a good barometer whhich i agree with deltha oneal and co and with somany injuries.

mayoclinic · Jan 19, 2009

rsd said:
So to summarize the "geniuses" in this thread, the Patriots defense needs to be more physical, intimidating, play with more emotion, stop being boy-scouts, be more aggressive, hit harder, and make big plays.

Hold the phones, I'm going to send the Memo to BB right now!!!! How could he have missed these easy fixes, while us geniuses here on this messageboard clearly figured it out.

The Patriots 2008 defensive shortcomings definitely do not have to do with injuries, young players learning the system, some aging players, and a lack of talent in some spots (D.O'neil) due to the aforementioned other items (as well as some possible questioning of last few drafts).

Despite all these shortcomings, the Patriots have as many SB wins as the "Scary" defensives of Pittsburgh and Baltimore combined in the last 10 years.

EDIT:

I will make it perfectly clear. I think it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of adjectives that do not have any meaningful correlation to defensive success while watching Pittsburgh/Baltimore play. Sure you can send the house at the QB and hit the other team hard, but if you have guys like D.O'Neil covering a WR, you're pretty screwed no matter what. What I'm saying it is about talent and players knowing their job. Some players (O'Neil) lack the former while younger ones tend to lack the latter (Guyton, Woods, Wilhite, *sigh* O'Neil,etc).

What kills me is that I think the Defensive really improved by the end of the year once the corners become a little more solid, and I would've loved to see what they could've done in the playoffs. Who is to say they couldn't have had the same success as the Cardinals, whose Defensive I would not take over the Patriots.

That's the thing with the NFL nowadays, you just need to get to the playoffs because after that it truly is a crapshoot. Unfortunately the Patriots missed out this year.

Despite your sarcasm, I don't think it's unreasonable to wish that our defense was more aggressive and attacking, and to note that we have lost some of the edge that we used to have and that other top D's currently have.

I agree we should be improving just with Meriweather, Mayo, Guyton and the other youngsters getting more experienced. Injuries aren't our fault, but it's predictable that aging players (Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel) will lose a step and become more injury prone. The Pats perhaps did not move quite as quickly as they might have to restock the D in anticipation of key personnel aging. The Steelers seem to have done a little better in this regard.

I agree it would have been nice to see us make the playoffs and see what we could do. I think we could have given the Steelers a run for their money. But our defense failed to make several key stops which left us short of the playoffs.

I'm sure BB is smarter than all of us and that we don't need to tell him anything. But I do feel that the D has gotten soft and passive under Pees, and I would love to see it revert back to a more aggressive form. That's all. Sorry to offend you.

patsfan55 · Jan 19, 2009

mayoclinic said:
I agree we should be improving just with Meriweather, Mayo, Guyton and the other youngsters getting more experienced. Injuries aren't our fault, but it's predictable that aging players (Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel) will lose a step and become more injury prone. The Pats perhaps did not move quite as quickly as they might have to restock the D in anticipation of key personnel aging. The Steelers seem to have done a little better in this regard.

What I think happened is a change in philosophy. And, I believe it stemmed from the Polian/Patriots rule. Since then we have focused on loading up on offensive playmakers, and going after more agile, less physical defensive players. As we all know it's a copycat league. And this year was a return to the defense. The only top five scoring offense that even made the playoffs was the Cards. All top five scoring defenses made it (pitt, baltimore, tennessee, philly, nyg). With the g-men winning it last yr, and this stat as well, I think you'll see teams start to focus back on building a pressure defense. As we all found out, with Brady leading the offense, if you put pieces around him you can have something very special. But you need to still have a unit more than just "solid" on the other side of the football. Hopefully this offseason we will continue to add to that side, as we did last.

rsd · Jan 19, 2009

mayoclinic said:
Despite your sarcasm, I don't think it's unreasonable to wish that our defense was more aggressive and attacking, and to note that we have lost some of the edge that we used to have and that other top D's currently have.

I agree we should be improving just with Meriweather, Mayo, Guyton and the other youngsters getting more experienced. Injuries aren't our fault, but it's predictable that aging players (Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel) will lose a step and become more injury prone. The Pats perhaps did not move quite as quickly as they might have to restock the D in anticipation of key personnel aging. The Steelers seem to have done a little better in this regard.

I agree it would have been nice to see us make the playoffs and see what we could do. I think we could have given the Steelers a run for their money. But our defense failed to make several key stops which left us short of the playoffs.

I'm sure BB is smarter than all of us and that we don't need to tell him anything. But I do feel that the D has gotten soft and passive under Pees, and I would love to see it revert back to a more aggressive form. That's all. Sorry to offend you.

No need to apologize, I wasn't offended (and sorry for a bit too much sarcasm).

But it's like how fans fall in love with "athletes", who look great in shorts and and run fast etc etc. That's all well and great, but you need guys who are also smart and know what to do as opposed to running around wreckless. Pitt's system works for them, but Brady has shown that a smart QB can pick apart that Defensive and exploit the secondary. Don't think it is coincidence that the years Pitt went to the SB, they did not play the Patriots. Fortunately for Pitt, they're rush has been very good this year and they had to face the likes of Rivers (who is ok but overrated imo) and Flacco.

If anything I agree you can criticize the Patriots Drafting/Player acquisition the last few years especially in regard to the LBs and secondary.

mgteich · Jan 19, 2009

Yes, I would like to have the #1 defense, the most feared, and the best in decades.
Yes, I would like to have the #1 offense, the most feared, and the best in decades.

I would much rather have our defense and our offense that have those of Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

patsfan55 · Jan 19, 2009

mgteich said:
Yes, I would like to have the #1 defense, the most feared, and the best in decades.
Yes, I would like to have the #1 offense, the most feared, and the best in decades.

I would much rather have our defense and our offense that have those of Baltimore and Pittsburgh.

Agreed, but I still think we can have the #1 offense and a slightly better defense than we currently have.

PatsFanSince74 · Jan 19, 2009

Re: I want teams to fear our defense.

Patdown93 said:
The Giants D ranks up there, but slash is right. The Ravens and Steelers play D with more emotion than anyone else.

Dare ya to say that directly to the faces of Rodney, Richard, Teddy, Mike and a few others, including BB. Hmmm, come to think of it especially to Rodney. Better be ready to run fast!

Deus Irae · Jan 19, 2009

patsfan55 said:
Agreed, but I still think we can have the #1 offense and a slightly better defense than we currently have.

The Patriots defense has been ranked at 8,4 and 2 in the past 3 seasons. That's a grand total of 14 slots in those 3 seasons. Coincidently, that's exactly the same as Pittsburgh during that same stretch.

People here really aren't complaining because the defense isn't as aggressive, or because it isn't as good as the defense of some other team. People are complaining because the defense isn't perfect. It's been the worst side effect of having a fan base rooting for such a dominant team for more than half a decade.

VJCPatriot · Jan 19, 2009

RayClay said:
I've yet to see someone tackled by a scheme. I realize our D is collaborative, but it makes a big difference if a young Bruschi or a Biesel is delivering the hits.

Try actually reading the sentence. I'll bold the relevant part for you.

VJCPatriot said:
I agree, I think it's more the players than the scheme or the 'emotion' as someone put it.

mayoclinic · Jan 19, 2009

Re: I want teams to fear our defense.

PatsFanSince74 said:
Dare ya to say that directly to the faces of Rodney, Richard, Teddy, Mike and a few others, including BB. Hmmm, come to think of it especially to Rodney. Better be ready to run fast!

The problem is, you wouldn't need to run very fast.

If our old guys with fire in their bellies could still run fast, we'd be in clover.

mayoclinic · Jan 19, 2009

patsfan55 said:
What I think happened is a change in philosophy. And, I believe it stemmed from the Polian/Patriots rule. Since then we have focused on loading up on offensive playmakers, and going after more agile, less physical defensive players. As we all know it's a copycat league. And this year was a return to the defense. The only top five scoring offense that even made the playoffs was the Cards. All top five scoring defenses made it (pitt, baltimore, tennessee, philly, nyg). With the g-men winning it last yr, and this stat as well, I think you'll see teams start to focus back on building a pressure defense. As we all found out, with Brady leading the offense, if you put pieces around him you can have something very special. But you need to still have a unit more than just "solid" on the other side of the football. Hopefully this offseason we will continue to add to that side, as we did last.

I would agree with you. Much as I wanted us to go 19-0 last year, the 2007 team didn't give me the same satisfaction as our 2003-2004 teams because it seemed more one-dimensional: a phenomenal passing offense, but a limited running game and an adequate but not dominating defense. I'm not complaining - we're all incredibly spoiled to be able to wish for these things instead of just wishing we had a competititive team like Detroit, Cincinnati, Kansas City, St. Louis, etc. - but I didn't particularly like the idea of us becoming another Indy or "The Greatest Show on Turf".

Even with the greatest QB in the past 20+ years (at least) we failed to stop the Colts in the 4th quarter in the 2007 playoffs, and failed to stop the G-men in the 4th quarter last year. I'm not saying the defense lost us those games. But in 2003-2004 we would have stopped them when it counted.

AzPatsFan · Jan 19, 2009

Re: I want teams to fear our defense... NOT!!!

You have to crawl before you can walk; and walk before you can run.

The Patriots played Mayo, Guyton, Wheatley, Willhite, Richardson, for the first time. They played Meriwether and Woods extensively for the first time, too. They also added O'Neil, Lew Sanders and Webster, new to the Defense. That is 9 newcomers to an eleven/twelve position Defense, as nickle corner is now a full time position, IMHO.

Despite all that newness, they still finished as the Top Ten Defense; and top 8th in points allowed.

And did it with a disciplined "bend don't break" keep it in front of you style while the newcomers learned each others names for the first time. Dean Pees did an awesome job when considered in that light. He deserves an award, not opprobrium, IMO. Next year they can do more.

There were three of the top four Defense's in this year's NFL final four. Only one remains. What happened to those awesome, always gambling, always blitzing, Ravens and Eagles?

Hint: It is spelled L-O-S-T ... (and gave up 23 and 32 points respectively!) What superb feared Defenses ... NOT !!!!

The better balanced Steelers and Cards, won.

Th-tha-that's all Folks!:disagreement:

RayClay · Jan 19, 2009

SVN said:
yes but they are very aggressive pass rushing type LB's ...well mostly.BB's LB drop into coverage as much which is why he doesnt want or hasnt wanted any new/inexperienced guy playing the position.
iam sure woodley and harrison would be good in our scheme but they wont be as much they are in the pitt defense.
Emotion is good but plying sound coverage and playcall is more important. The steelers pass rush and zone blitz if picked up by someone like brady routinely did can lead big plays in the passing game. Its something BB doesnt take a chance with unless in the RZ when the pats blitz a lot at least in the romeo days becuse there was less space to throw.Plus BB like parcells likes big LB's for the same reason of coverage and playing physical i guess.
The pats are a very physical team, just because they dont jump aorund like the steelers and ravens doesnt mean they arent. Just the 2008 roster isnt a good barometer whhich i agree with deltha oneal and co and with somany injuries.

I'm not saying we need players who mimic theirs. I'm saying we need to stock more talent of the types of LBs we like.

Obviously, we've liked some of their actual players they managed to continue without being A.D. and Vrabel.

RayClay · Jan 19, 2009

VJCPatriot said:
Try actually reading the sentence. I'll bold the relevant part for you.

I'm agreeing with you and the poster you agreed with. I didn't feel like picking out quotes about the scheme from different posters and was just amplifying the gist of your post. It's OK to quote and agree with someone.

SVN · Jan 19, 2009

forget agrssive style and scheme..if they can just improve their tackling they can be a impactful defense. how many missed tackles resulting in big plays have we seen in the last two yrs ?
2007/2008 has to be worst tackling pats teams i would think

I want teams to fear our defense

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