Cornerbacks MAJOR weakness

[BradyToMoss]

Well done sir.

TY my good friend..........

I took alot of grief from a few over my stance and views on Bryant, but hey, I don't drink the Koolaid, I call it like I see it. Even in the soft, vanilla zone the Pats played, you could see that Fernando was not even remotely close to these chain moving 3rd and 8's that he gave up at an alarming rate. And the run support? What run support? there wasn't any. There was also a nice TE-Train choo choo ride into the endzone Thur night. Freakin ugly .......

Like I said, BB cut his losses and moved on before we trotted FB into real competition, I cannot begin to imagine what PM would have done to that side of the field in November.

Funny, I haven't heard any commentary from spacecrime or Sicilian since he's been cut. ?

 

[MVPKiller]

Most of the people I know seem to feel this way about our corners and really site the fact that we don't have a huge playmaker back there this year (yet). If I had to choose, I would rather have solid guys who perform and do there job than a bunch of Pacman's running around trying to get the pick 6 on every pass and blowing a game. I don't know how anyone can judge anything at all from our D based on any of the 4 "games" I have seen so far, I think this debate is best saved for late September.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

How do you know the Patriots can't put pressure on the QB like the Giants can? How do you know that the Pats CBs may be one of the worst in the NFL right now?

Those statements are made as if you can actually see the future. Is that you Miss Cleo (there is sarcasm for you DW)?

As for where this secondary falls in terms of the Patriots all-time history, we'll only be able to tell that after the season is over.

I will put it too you this way, I will be the first one to eat my words if the Pats defense is actually good this year. I have a feeling that this defense is going to be a repeat of the 2000, 2002 and 2005 defense. However, young guys like Mayo, Crable, Wheatley, Slater and Guyton will be the bright spots. Hopefully, Merriweather will be in the equation as well.

 

[DaBruinz]

I will put it too you this way, I will be the first one to eat my words if the Pats defense is actually good this year. I have a feeling that this defense is going to be a repeat of the 2000, 2002 and 2005 defense. However, young guys like Mayo, Crable, Wheatley, Slater and Guyton will be the bright spots. Hopefully, Merriweather will be in the equation as well.

Do you even remember what those defenses looked like and the circumstances that got them there?

To say that 2000,2002 or 2005 are similar in any way is to say you don't understand the game.

2000 - New coach. A lot over-priced, under-talented players.
2002 - Implementation of the 3-4 defense, except that the team didn't have a NT. Steve Martin talked his way out of town before the season ended.

2005 - Bruschi's stroke. Ted Johnson's retirement right before training camp. Roman Phifer not recovered from his injury.

How you can say this defense is going to be like any of those is beyond me. Hell, in 2005, the Pats still won the division and played two in the play-offs.

Who are the over-priced, under-talented veterans on this team? What is the new defense the Patriots are implementing? What series of injuries and unexpected events has depleted the ILBers to the point that they don't have a real one?

Last I looked, the top 5 players for the D-line are healthy. Including Seymour who can be a monster when healthy. And this defense starts with the D-line. The LBers, there is a question about Thomas' health. I think that Woods and Crable will be adequate as a replacement, but they may also surprise us. Mayo, while a rookie, has not looked lost out there. Not to mention that he has 3 players around him in Harrison, Bruschi, and Vrabel who have numerous years in the system and are very effective leaders to the point of almost being like coaches on the field.

In the secondary, the question is Wheatley. The kid has the talent and the skills. BB clearly felt that he outplayed Bryant otherwise Bryant would still be here. The Patriots have depth in their safeties like they've not had before with Harrison, J. Sanders, Lynch and Meriweather. Not to mention Slater, Ventrone and L. Sanders. Harrison is a leader. Lynch almost looks like he's played in the system for years. Sanders HAS played in the system. Meriweather was responsible for Wilson's departure.

That's not kool aid. That's what I see.

If you want to say the defense is going to be bad, say so. Give some concrete reasons. Don't just use generalities or attempt to compare them to defenses that had huge personnel issues or were implementing a brand new defense.

 

[DaBruinz]

TY my good friend..........

I took alot of grief from a few over my stance and views on Bryant, but hey, I don't drink the Koolaid, I call it like I see it. Even in the soft, vanilla zone the Pats played, you could see that Fernando was not even remotely close to these chain moving 3rd and 8's that he gave up at an alarming rate. And the run support? What run support? there wasn't any. There was also a nice TE-Train choo choo ride into the endzone Thur night. Freakin ugly .......

Like I said, BB cut his losses and moved on before we trotted FB into real competition, I cannot begin to imagine what PM would have done to that side of the field in November.

Funny, I haven't heard any commentary from spacecrime or Sicilian since he's been cut. ?

I'll eat my crow on Bryant. I think there is more going on with him than not playing up to par. Otherwise, why would he have been out with the #1 defense every game. I think that Wheatley outplayed him and that there was something else.

Bottom line is that he's gone now and I was wrong. Won't be the first time and won't be the last.

 

[mgteich]

We brought in three veterans and two high draft choices. Lewis Sanders is the veteran that stuck. I was expecting (perhaps hoping) that two would stick. We have four corners and four safeties. That's fine. The question mark for me is Wilhite. If he isn't ready for prime time, then we need add someone else (and replace Ventrone).

I'll eat my crow on Bryant. I think there is more going on with him than not playing up to par. Otherwise, why would he have been out with the #1 defense every game. I think that Wheatley outplayed him and that there was something else.

Bottom line is that he's gone now and I was wrong. Won't be the first time and won't be the last.

 

[captain stone]

Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite & Lew Sanders have the potential...to be the worst set of CBs - esp. the backups - of the BB/SP era.

Hobbs is an injury-prone midget;
Wheatley could be a future Hobbs;
Wilhite could just plain stink;
and Sanders is a well-traveled JAG.

The roster moves of yesterday & today are stunning & frustrating to me. All these vets are gone, yet the uselessness of Izzo, Alexander, Yates, Hochstein & CJ Effin Jones remain?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

i think something went vastly un-noticed last yr
we had a very mediocre defense

the reason the defense looked good was because the offense was simply amazing, making the opposing team one-dimensional

on paper i thought the defense looked better this yr
but better than "mediocre" is just "decent"
and it could be argued that the biggest losses (asante, seau) out-weighed the greatest gains (mayo, crable, wheatley, bryant)
without Tom in at qb our offense is pathetic we all know that, and we knew that coming in, but what i'm worried about is if the offense isnt amazing just how "decent" will the defense look this yr

the defense wasn't bad, it just wasn't physical.

 

[billdog3484]

We desperately need some help at cornerback. But, at this point of the season it's going to be terribly difficult to fill a hole. I don't know if BB and SP share the same sentiment but i think we could be in trouble in the secondary. It would be amazing if one of Wheatley and Wilhite would be just an average cornerback this year, although I dont believe rookie corners have great track records in the NFL. Sure, we will have one of the weaker secondaries in the league, but I think our front seven should be better. Adalius, Vrabel, and Crable should be able to put some pressure from the outside. I think Adalius is better suited to be an OLB and we should be able to utilize his versatility more this year. As for the midlde, Mayo and Bruschi, and whoever else for that matter, should be better than what we had last year up the middle. The front three, hopefully they just werent trying hard this preseason. I think they are all in the prime of their careers and should be great if healthy.

I think the thing I am confused about most is Merriweather. I feel like when he is in the game he is usually in the right place and does a good job. Obviously, last year he couldnt catch a cold, but Im sure he worked dilligently on that in the off-season. If he could only step up and be the player we need him to be, that would be a huge boost.

I also wonder if the front office is considering trading for a CB. I know that would be uncharacteristic of them, but we are desperate, and there might not even be anyone worthwhile available. The window to win championships is not very big. We have lost in the Wild Card, Divisional, AFC Championship GAme, and the Super Bowl in the last four years respectively. It's very difficult to keep up that kind of success. It would be a shame having such a talented team right now, but losing because of a concern which was so blatant in the offseason, yet we were unable to come remotely close to fixing. I wouldnt mind trading one of our 2nd round picks next year, or a third, for a big upgrade. Lito Shepard is great in my opinion, when healthy of course, I wonder if he could be had.

 

[JFK]

CB is definitely a weakness. Right now, (I'LL) even trade a 1st round pick for Shephard.

 

[DW Toys]

Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite & Lew Sanders have the potential...to be the worst set of CBs - esp. the backups - of the BB/SP era.

Hobbs is an injury-prone midget;
Wheatley could be a future Hobbs;
Wilhite could just plain stink;
and Sanders is a well-traveled JAG.

The roster moves of yesterday & today are stunning & frustrating to me. All these vets are gone, yet the uselessness of Izzo, Alexander, Yates, Hochstein & CJ Effin Jones remain?

Best post of the day! Excellent job. Lets talk safety too.

Bet: Izzo, Alexander, Yates, Hochstein & CJ Jones could have been left off of the roster and there would not be one team in the NFL that would take any of these players on their roster right now. Any takers on that bet?
DW Toys

 

[captain stone]

Safety's not much better, DW; see my post in PatFanKen's thread.

The meager crop sown from recent drafts, esp. the 2004 & 2007 disasters, is bearing bitter fruit right now, in the form of inadequate depth at some positions and inadequate starters at other positions.

 

[ICSB]

Jason David was released by the Saints today.

 

[BradyToMoss]

Jason David was released by the Saints today.

You don't want him in a Patriots uniform I hope ?

 

[JR4]

It is amazing to me how people can even think they know how the
combination of CBs and rest of the D will gel even after a game or two
never mind by mid season.

To say the group could be the worst BB has ever put on the field
is pure conjecture and without any rational consideration.

Haven't people learned that BB and staff know what they are doing?

Hobbs should be playing 100% healthy. Do any of you nay sayers
think that will make a difference?

Does it make any difference that both Wheatly and Hobbs are .... FAST.
I doubt we will see many WR's out run them. Unless it is just a purely
blown coverage QBs are going to be throwing into coverage on deep balls
most of the time. Sure WRs are going to make plays but throwing
into coverage is not a high percentage throw.

I say PATs D will allow less than 16 points or less ave/game when the season is done.

 

[Deus Irae]

It is amazing to me how people can even think they know how the
combination of CBs and rest of the D will gel even after a game or two
never mind by mid season.

To say the group could be the worst BB has ever put on the field
is pure conjecture and without any rational consideration.

Haven't people learned that BB and staff know what they are doing?

Hobbs should be playing 100% healthy. Do any of you nay sayers
think that will make a difference?

Does it make any difference that both Wheatly and Hobbs are .... FAST.
I doubt we will see many WR's out run them. Unless it is just a purely
blown coverage QBs are going to be throwing into coverage on deep balls
most of the time. Sure WRs are going to make plays but throwing
into coverage is not a high percentage throw.

I say PATs D will allow less than 16 points or less ave/game when the season is done.

Pot, meet kettle. Last year, the team allowed 17 points per game and were #4 in the league. People denigrating this CB corps can point to at least as much evidence to back their assertions as you can point to to justify that 16ppg claim.

 

[DW Toys]

It is amazing to me how people can even think they know how the
combination of CBs and rest of the D will gel even after a game or two
never mind by mid season.

To say the group could be the worst BB has ever put on the field
is pure conjecture and without any rational consideration.

Haven't people learned that BB and staff know what they are doing?

Hobbs should be playing 100% healthy. Do any of you nay sayers
think that will make a difference?

Does it make any difference that both Wheatly and Hobbs are .... FAST.
I doubt we will see many WR's out run them. Unless it is just a purely
blown coverage QBs are going to be throwing into coverage on deep balls
most of the time. Sure WRs are going to make plays but throwing
into coverage is not a high percentage throw.

I say PATs D will allow less than 16 points or less ave/game when the season is done.

Cousin 4,
There is no doubt that Wheatley and Hobbs are fast. They might be smart and have great leaping ability. Unfortunately the Good Lord made them short and a liability against some of the better tall receivers in the NFL. Don't we play the Cards this year? Get out your stilts Smurf CBs. Taking bets on how many yards Fitzgerald gets. You would think they would get that in practice as Moss eats those guys lunch every day.
This "yeah, but they can jump" crap bothers the hell out of me. As WR get bigger every year we keep searching for the Darrell Greens of the world. Wilhite isn't much bigger. O'Neil should help but I think the tone was set on the DB class when Bryant was knocked five yards down field by a WR. No body mentioned that James Sanders was run over as well .
I hope this game of chicken with Lynch works out. I was happy at first, then did not see too much in the pickup, but after the Giants game and his desire to stay on the filed, I was impressed. Yes, he is not fast, but neither is James Sanders and Rodney has lost a step. He could be faster than Sanders and as fast as Rodney. He saves a step because he knows where he is going by experience.
My point to all of this could be that Rodney and Lynch help the CB's because of their ability to play field angles and positioning.
I think that Slater could be a decent CB. He will lay a lick and walk away going "what happened" but he sticks his nose in. I think he might be a better CB than a S. He is a little bigger than the CB 3 Smurfs.

All in all Mr. 4, The pass rush will be as important as anything. I see Crable as a Colvin type rusher.
DW Toys

 

[JR4]

Cousin 4,
There is no doubt that Wheatley and Hobbs are fast. They might be smart and have great leaping ability. Unfortunately the Good Lord made them short and a liability against some of the better tall receivers in the NFL. Don't we play the Cards this year? Get out your stilts Smurf CBs. Taking bets on how many yards Fitzgerald gets. You would think they would get that in practice as Moss eats those guys lunch every day.
This "yeah, but they can jump" crap bothers the hell out of me. As WR get bigger every year we keep searching for the Darrell Greens of the world. Wilhite isn't much bigger. O'Neil should help but I think the tone was set on the DB class when Bryant was knocked five yards down field by a WR. No body mentioned that James Sanders was run over as well .
I hope this game of chicken with Lynch works out. I was happy at first, then did not see too much in the pickup, but after the Giants game and his desire to stay on the filed, I was impressed. Yes, he is not fast, but neither is James Sanders and Rodney has lost a step. He could be faster than Sanders and as fast as Rodney. He saves a step because he knows where he is going by experience.
My point to all of this could be that Rodney and Lynch help the CB's because of their ability to play field angles and positioning.
I think that Slater could be a decent CB. He will lay a lick and walk away going "what happened" but he sticks his nose in. I think he might be a better CB than a S. He is a little bigger than the CB 3 Smurfs.

All in all Mr. 4, The pass rush will be as important as anything. I see Crable as a Colvin type rusher.
DW Toys

DW, You seem to be hung up on SIZE.

Forget jumping ability .... that's over rated IMO.
Do you thing there maybe other qualities that a smaller CB has that
might out weigh his size?
Does what the system wants it's corners to do have anything to do with
the qualities a CB must have to be successful in that system?

Why do you think BB has opted for smaller receivers since he has been
here? Is it because that he and Scott and his whole staff just can't find
a few 6ft + corners that could start for this team?

Do you think BB/SP are looking at Corners for something other than size?
If so what might that be?

 

[emoney_33]

Cousin 4,
There is no doubt that Wheatley and Hobbs are fast. They might be smart and have great leaping ability. Unfortunately the Good Lord made them short and a liability against some of the better tall receivers in the NFL. Don't we play the Cards this year? Get out your stilts Smurf CBs. Taking bets on how many yards Fitzgerald gets. You would think they would get that in practice as Moss eats those guys lunch every day.
This "yeah, but they can jump" crap bothers the hell out of me. As WR get bigger every year we keep searching for the Darrell Greens of the world. Wilhite isn't much bigger. O'Neil should help but I think the tone was set on the DB class when Bryant was knocked five yards down field by a WR. No body mentioned that James Sanders was run over as well .
I hope this game of chicken with Lynch works out. I was happy at first, then did not see too much in the pickup, but after the Giants game and his desire to stay on the filed, I was impressed. Yes, he is not fast, but neither is James Sanders and Rodney has lost a step. He could be faster than Sanders and as fast as Rodney. He saves a step because he knows where he is going by experience.
My point to all of this could be that Rodney and Lynch help the CB's because of their ability to play field angles and positioning.
I think that Slater could be a decent CB. He will lay a lick and walk away going "what happened" but he sticks his nose in. I think he might be a better CB than a S. He is a little bigger than the CB 3 Smurfs.

All in all Mr. 4, The pass rush will be as important as anything. I see Crable as a Colvin type rusher.
DW Toys

It's long been time to get off the "short CBs" whine... Only perfect throws to tall receivers in the right situation will expose the "short CB" crap, which happens rarely. A lot less often than CBs biting on the wrong route and leaving a guy wide open.

 

[Pats_R_#1]

Cousin 4,
There is no doubt that Wheatley and Hobbs are fast. They might be smart and have great leaping ability. Unfortunately the Good Lord made them short and a liability against some of the better tall receivers in the NFL. Don't we play the Cards this year? Get out your stilts Smurf CBs. Taking bets on how many yards Fitzgerald gets. You would think they would get that in practice as Moss eats those guys lunch every day.
This "yeah, but they can jump" crap bothers the hell out of me. As WR get bigger every year we keep searching for the Darrell Greens of the world. Wilhite isn't much bigger.
DW Toys

Something tells me you never called Samuel short, yet he's only 1" taller than Hobbs. Go ahead and track down a ruler so you can see what 1" looks like. It's not nearly as much of a difference as some people want to believe.

If a CB can get good position and time his jumps correctly, an extra inch or two makes minimal difference in the effectiveness of said CB.