Cornerbacks MAJOR weakness

[Deus Irae]

At this point, I'd call cornerback a question mark, not a weakness. We as fans simply don't know what we've got at the position.

 

[mgteich]

This is a matter of semantics. I would say that if we don't know whether we have more than one corner we can count on, then this posistion is a weakness.

We could be saying we aren't sure we have a weakness if we had O'Connell, Gutierrez and a still to be signed at the QB position. But that would be an unreasonable statement.

Perhaps all you are saying is that the patriots have "question marks", while other teams have "weaknesses".

At this point, I'd call cornerback a question mark, not a weakness. We as fans simply don't know what we've got at the position.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is a matter of semantics. I would say that if we don't know whether we have more than one corner we can count on, then this posistion is a weakness.

We could be saying we aren't sure we have a weakness if we had O'Connell, Gutierrez and a still to be signed at the QB position. But that would be an unreasonable statement.

Perhaps all you are saying is that the patriots have "question marks", while other teams have "weaknesses".

No. I'm saying that the current group of Patriots cornerbacks includes 3 players who were starters on their respective teams last season (one prior to injury, but a starter nonetheless) and we don't know that having them makes cornerback a weakness.

Other players aside....Is Hobbs/Bryant/Webster/Wheatley a lesser group than Hobbs/Samuel/Gay and, if so, is it by such a wide margin that the position has gone from a strength to a weakness?

I don't know that we can answer that yet, which is why I called it a question mark.

 

[mgteich]

We do disagree more with regard to last year than this year. I don't think corner was a strength last year. Gay wasn't especially strong, and our dime backs were invisible in their effect.

BTW, tell me that we know that Webster is at 100%, and I would change my mind in a minute.

No. I'm saying that the current group of Patriots cornerbacks includes 3 players who were starters on their respective teams last season (one prior to injury, but a starter nonetheless) and we don't know that having them makes cornerback a weakness.

Other players aside....Is Hobbs/Bryant/Webster/Wheatley a lesser group than Hobbs/Samuel/Gay and, if so, is it by such a wide margin that the position has gone from a strength to a weakness?

I don't know that we can answer that yet, which is why I called it a question mark.

 

[Deus Irae]

We do disagree more with regard to last year than this year. I don't think corner was a strength last year. Gay wasn't especially strong, and our dime backs were invisible in their effect.

BTW, tell me that we know that Webster is at 100%, and I would change my mind in a minute.

Well, I think one way you can see the difference will be with the dime packages, because the team now won't have to use Hit Stick as a cover CB in dime, and can use him at safety instead. We could see a back six dime package of, for example:

Hobbs
Bryant
Webster
Wheatley
Hit Stick
Rodney

That group would cover a lot of ground, and Lynch or Sanders could be added if the team wanted to pull either a DL or an LB and go with 7 in the back. And, yes, I'm basing this off the idea that Webster's healthy enough to play and has been kept back because he's made the team and BB isn't risking him. With him gone, I'd have to re-evaluate the depth based upon the other corners that make it.

 

[mgteich]

This has been a good discussion. I believe that we agree. Personally, I think Webster's health is a critical issue. But even if he is ready after the bye, the team will be fine at corner, especially with the improvement at safety.

Well, I think one way you can see the difference will be with the dime packages, because the team now won't have to use Hit Stick as a cover CB in dime, and can use him at safety instead. We could see a back six dime package of, for example:

Hobbs
Bryant
Webster
Wheatley
Hit Stick
Rodney

That group would cover a lot of ground, and Lynch or Sanders could be added if the team wanted to pull either a DL or an LB and go with 7 in the back. And, yes, I'm basing this off the idea that Webster's healthy enough to play and has been kept back because he's made the team and BB isn't risking him. With him gone, I'd have to re-evaluate the depth based upon the other corners that make it.

 

[patsfan55]

weren't they like 4th in the NFL last year in total defense?

deceiving stat
they were not the fourth best defense in the league last yr
more in the middle of the pact
but since the offense put our opponents into a one-dimensional game plan, it made our defense look better than it truly was

 

[Deus Irae]

deceiving stat
they were not the fourth best defense in the league last yr
more in the middle of the pact
but since the offense put our opponents into a one-dimensional game plan, it made our defense look better than it truly was

The playoffs pretty much destroyed this argument of yours.

 

[DaBruinz]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. He didn't try to knock the ball out. He was grasping and whoops, and where the hell was he when the catch was made, looking for the best angle for close-up picture shots like in the SB?
DW Toys

P.S. Cassel even completed a pass.

How about you learn a bit about the game before you flap your trap? You clearly didn't watch it and only caught the Highlights and think that you know what you are talking about. Did you ever stop to think that it wasn't Sander's man? Hell no you didn't. You just rant and rave about Sanders and about how bad you think he is. You don't actually do a decent evaluation considering ANYTHING like the coverage that was going on.

Then you make stupid comments about about he supposedly didn't do his job when you state, in fact, that he did. And that is to be the last line of defense. But far be it from you to actually learn something about the game.

Please, do everyone a favor and stop trying to make us as stupid as you are.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Let's not let Litto Sheppard out of town. A number two now.

Huh? When did Lito Sheppard visit the Patriots town? Link please.

 

[DaBruinz]

James Sanders is embedded in my mind in just two plays, the 06 Colts Championship game when he did the "Olay" when Adai scored with one minute left. I mean he actually stept aside. Look at the tape.

When did you start following the Patriots? 2006? It clearly wasn't before that because you'd know that Belichick has given points to the other team on several occasions, including an intentional safety.

Also, Sanders didn't "step aside" as you claim. Adai cut back on the run and Sanders had already been moving in the previous direction.

Then the SB last year as he watched with great interest as Rodney tries to break up the pass while he's standing a few feet away with a spectacular view. SI got a great photo of that.
DW Toys

Hmmm.. Let's see, Asante Samuel blows the coverage on that play and its somehow James Sanders fault? Also, what would you have had Sanders do? Attempt to hit Tyree from behind while Tyree was defenseless in the air? You do realize that's a penalty right? Or would you rather Sander try and possibly miss and take out harrison and potentially give Tyree the ability to run it in for a TD?

2 dimensional pictures don't tell the whole story.

 

[DaBruinz]

deceiving stat
they were not the fourth best defense in the league last yr
more in the middle of the pact
but since the offense put our opponents into a one-dimensional game plan, it made our defense look better than it truly was

Actually, the Pats were 4th in Points allowed and 4th in Total yards allowed. The Pats were 10th against the run and 6th against the pass.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=team&sort=yds&pos=def&league=nfl&season=2&year=2007

I have to disagree with you that they were in the middle of the pack. Maybe by the end of the season when they'd lost Colvin and they didn't have a solid rotation. But certainly not through the 1st 9 games. They were definitely near the top.

 

[DaBruinz]

Huh? When did Lito Sheppard visit the Patriots town? Link please.

Did Sheppard not make the trip with the Eagles to Foxboro?

 

[DocE]

I think the Patriots envisioned a lot of competition at the Corner spot in camp this year:

Bryant: long time starter, one time recipient of a big contract
Webster: long time starter
Sanders: Occasional starter, including last year in Atlanta
Wheatley: 2nd round draft pick
Wilhite: 4th round draft pick
Richardson: 6th round pick in 07 back off IR

On paper, this would have made for a great competition for the no.2 corner and the nickel back spot. Unfortunately, Webster, Sanders, Wilhite, and Richardson have all missed significant time in camp.

I still think the quickness of both Webster and Wheatley give the Patriots the potential to have a better nickel package then they had last year. Both players have the body type and quickness to cover the slot better than a Randall Gay or Brandon Meriweather.

I am concerned with the Safety play, and that concern turns to panic if Brandon Meriweather is not healthy. The Patriots are painfully slow in the back end without Brandon out there.

 

[cstjohn17]

Other players aside....Is Hobbs/Bryant/Webster/Wheatley a lesser group than Hobbs/Samuel/Gay and, if so, is it by such a wide margin that the position has gone from a strength to a weakness?

I call it a question mark also but last years unit was much better. Samuel was a pro-bowl player, one of the best CBs in the league. Samuel has more INTs than all of these guys together. The importance of a #1 corner cannot be minimized. Without Samuel, Hobbs becomes your #1. Also done of the current trio are exactly Cal Ripken. It will be very surprising if at least one of them doesn't miss a big chunk of games.

 

[spacecrime]

they are not even close to the receivers.

Ever occur to you that players don't decide where they line up on defense? That the coaches decide that? That the players are executing the scheme they are told to? That if they play off when they should be tight, it is the coach's job to pull them off the field for a play and correct them?

Did you see the Colts-Bills preseason game? How bad the Colts looked and how good the Bills looked? Do you think that will carry over to the regular season? Did you see the graphic on preseason vs regular season win-loss record for the Colts? The Colts have the worst preseason record in hte NFL since 2005, and the best regular season record in the NFL for the same period.

Aren't we smart enough to realize that preseason in not regular season, and what you see now in terms of scheme is NOT what you will see in September?

 

[JSn]

Aren't we smart enough to realize that preseason in not regular season, and what you see now in terms of scheme is NOT what you will see in September?

This being thread four-billion-and-one on the subject, I think the question answers itself.

 

[DW Toys]

When did you start following the Patriots? 2006? It clearly wasn't before that because you'd know that Belichick has given points to the other team on several occasions, including an intentional safety.

Also, Sanders didn't "step aside" as you claim. Adai cut back on the run and Sanders had already been moving in the previous direction.



Hmmm.. Let's see, Asante Samuel blows the coverage on that play and its somehow James Sanders fault? Also, what would you have had Sanders do? Attempt to hit Tyree from behind while Tyree was defenseless in the air? You do realize that's a penalty right? Or would you rather Sander try and possibly miss and take out harrison and potentially give Tyree the ability to run it in for a TD?

2 dimensional pictures don't tell the whole story.

I appreciate your retort. He "olayed" the play clean and simple in the Colts game. He was reluctant to hit. If you see it different then you would be wrong then, wouldn't you?

O.K. lets look at your next theory. A Colt FG in that drive just tied the game and the Pats are still in a position of worse case scenario, OT. You are saying that BB allowed Adai to score to get the ball back, now down by four with a minute to play?

Sanders wasn't moving side to side. He was running straight on to Adai and then Sanders just side stepped him!

In a huge game like the SB you don't at least try to back up your team mate instead of standing there staring aimlessly? Don't you fly to the ball and get into the hit? The idea was to break the pass up, not take a PI. He gets a finger on the ball and maybe the result is different. Gang tackle and fly to the ball are part of the game. A field spectator is not. The rule states that as soon as the WR touches the ball you can knock the hell out of him. How many people agree with me that even a half a hit knocks the ball out of Tyrees hands? I bet you even agree with that. I have seen the replay too. ....many times!......So this was Assantes' fault?

I realize you are one on the stars on the board and I do not want to tick you off, but there are other valid opinions out there. No disrespect. I might not always be right (i am in this case). It doesn't make a difference what you and I think anyway, does it?

Yep.... been a season ticket holder and have sat in my share of ice puddles up to my knees. I have actually played too.

We do this forum for pleasure. Lighten up there Francis.

I hope your guy Sanders has a spectacular season. Then you can "told-you-so" me all you want.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

I think the Patriots envisioned a lot of competition at the Corner spot in camp this year:

Bryant: long time starter, one time recipient of a big contract
Webster: long time starter
Sanders: Occasional starter, including last year in Atlanta
Wheatley: 2nd round draft pick
Wilhite: 4th round draft pick
Richardson: 6th round pick in 07 back off IR

On paper, this would have made for a great competition for the no.2 corner and the nickel back spot. Unfortunately, Webster, Sanders, Wilhite, and Richardson have all missed significant time in camp.

I still think the quickness of both Webster and Wheatley give the Patriots the potential to have a better nickel package then they had last year. Both players have the body type and quickness to cover the slot better than a Randall Gay or Brandon Meriweather.

I am concerned with the Safety play, and that concern turns to panic if Brandon Meriweather is not healthy. The Patriots are painfully slow in the back end without Brandon out there.

Great post. I agree.
DW Toys

 

[VJCPatriot]

Did Sheppard not make the trip with the Eagles to Foxboro?

That's different from a visit to interview for a job, and you know that. I think we would have heard something on the news if something like that happened.