Tebow working on zone-read plays in practice (EDIT: and "catching passes" too)

[Ironman44]

Why are people starting threads about seventh stringers?

Another question would be :

Why do people who don't like threads about 7th stringers post in threads about 7th stringers?

 

[AzPatsFan]

But if, God forbid, Brady gets hurt then there are times we might want Tebow in for Mallett.

Why?????????

 

[Christiancat]

Why?????????

Because Tebow is a mobile QB who can help his team win.

 

[DarrylS]

Because Tebow is a mobile QB who can help his team win.

Just read an article in this mornings news, and that claimed that because of the precision of offensive schemes.. cannot just put in a "running" quarterback in a "pocket passing" scheme... the breaks for receivers would be completely different as would be the blocking assignments for the O lineman.. when Cassell stepped in, he essentially was a carbon copy of Brady... Mallett is pretty much the same.

Those of you who hope for something different need to study how this offense works...

 

[PatsDog]

I thought this Marshal Faulk interview of Kaepernick today was a nice explanation / demonstration of the Read Option:

The read option through San Francisco QB Colin Kaepernick's eyes - NFL Videos

Trent Dilfer's take on the zone-read/pistol. He addresses the thought: "why don't you just hammer the QB?"

Inside the 49ers | Dilfer on the Pistol: ?There?s no answer for it.? | The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, CA

Dilfer on the Pistol: ‘There’s no answer for it.’
Posted on February 2, 2013 by philbarber
By PHIL BARBER

Is the Pistol offense here to stay in the NFL? It has been one of the most popular big-picture questions all week in New Orleans.

Two days ago, ESPN analyst Trent Dilfer got a chance to weigh in on the topic. Dilfer was an average NFL quarterback, but I hope you will agree that he is among the very best talking heads when it comes to breaking down trends and tactics in the league.

Does Dilfer like the Pistol? You could say so. He calls the system “the greatest tactical advantage offense has had in years.”

“I know it’s here to stay,” Dilfer added, “because there’s no answer for it.”

To study the subject a couple years ago, when zone-read plays were just starting to pop up in the NFL, Dilfer studied what defenses were doing against those plays at their source: high school and college football.

“The answers for college and high school defenses, if you don’t have superior personnel – which, in the NFL, you’re never gonna have a superior personnel advantage across the board – is to play what we call Cover 0, is take your safeties out of the coverage element,” Dilfer said. “If you do that in the NFL, you’re giving up 70-yard touchdowns. … If the corners have no help, it’s over. So that’s the answer. Well, nobody in the NFL is gonna play Cover 0 consistently.”

Dilfer made a distinction that I think has been blurred by a lot of fans and writers this year. The Pistol is a formation, with the quarterback in shallow shotgun formation, and a halfback right behind him. (The 49ers like to run theirs with another back next to the QB, or one on each side in diamond formation.) The read-option is a play on which the quarterback stuffs the ball into the halfback’s gut, and uses the actions of the defensive end or outside linebacker to determine whether to keep the ball or hand it off.

Some NFL teams, including the Niners, are using both in concert, to dramatic effect.

“The Pistol enhances all your other plays that you’ve been running forever,” Dilfer said. “It enhances your play-action, it enhances your zone game, it enhances your power game. It enhances your movement game. You saw (Washington’s) RG3 kind of fake right and boot left off of it.”

But it’s really the read-option that had Dilfer foaming at the mouth.

“Zone-read itself is genius because it’s mathematics,” he said. “It’s addition and geometry. You have a numbers advantage, that’s the addition. But more important than that, you have geometry, you have angles. And in the NFL, when you’re scheming up ball plays, when these mad scientists are in the room and they’re drawing up XO, they’re looking at front differentials. OK?

“They’re looking at how people line up in fronts, backers displacements, blah-blah-blah. And what they’re looking for is angles. Can we get angles to get to the right people to create lanes? That’s all they’re looking for. And they drop all these different plays to get angles. Well, the zone-read part of the Pistol creates automatic angles for your tackles. And I’ve talked to Anthony Davis and Joe Staley about this, and they said, ‘Our lives have changed forever, because we have an advantage on almost every snap we take in the Pistol, because we have these incredible angles.’ ”

Dilfer said he recently filmed a piece for ESPN in which he broke down film of the 49ers’ offensive line in the read-option.

He saw “Anthony Davis take (Green Bay’s) B.J. Raji, one of the best defensive tackles in football, and move him three gaps. Twice. And then Joe Staley on the other side moving another defensive tackle three gaps the other way. That doesn’t happen in the NFL. Or it hasn’t happened for years. And that’s what this offense is allowing them to do. Oh, and by the way? They can throw the ball out of it, and there’s wide-open passing lanes out of it because there’s so much attention trying to cheat the side they think the zone-read’s coming at.”

There are two main counter-arguments you hear from people who say the Pistol and zone-read are fads. One: Remember the Wildcat? It was all the rage three or four years ago. Then NFL defenses figured it out, and it’s already practically obsolete. Dilfer disagrees, saying offensive coaches can always outpace defensive coaches.

The other argument is that your quarterback will get hit too much running the read-option. He will break down over time, and you’ll be forced to abandon the scheme. Dilfer isn’t buying that one, either.

“Teams that have tried to come and hit the quarterback have got torched,” he said. “Because as soon as you bring the unblocked player – we’ll call him the defensive end – up the field at too steep of an angle, you’ve created a running lane for the back, with the angles of the tackle and guard working up to the next level, where the first one who’s gonna touch him is the safety coming from 8 to 10 yards deep.”

Is the Pistol here to stay? If you believe Trent Dilfer, you’d better get used to seeing it.

 

[Oinko]

Pistol is not the same thing as zone-read. Zone read is a play concept that can be run without being in the pistol formation, and and without having what is considered a "pistol" offense.

The term "zone read" is getting over-used now, and becoming sort of a catch-all like "wildcat" did starting a few years back.

 

[Oinko]

I see upon closer inspection that Dilfer pointed out the distinction I was making.

Trent Dilfer's take on the zone-read/pistol. He addresses the thought: "why don't you just hammer the QB?"

Inside the 49ers | Dilfer on the Pistol: ?There?s no answer for it.? | The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, CA


Dilfer made a distinction that I think has been blurred by a lot of fans and writers this year. The Pistol is a formation, with the quarterback in shallow shotgun formation, and a halfback right behind him. (The 49ers like to run theirs with another back next to the QB, or one on each side in diamond formation.) The read-option is a play on which the quarterback stuffs the ball into the halfback’s gut, and uses the actions of the defensive end or outside linebacker to determine whether to keep the ball or hand it off.

[/COLOR]

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Trent Dilfer's take on the zone-read/pistol. He addresses the thought: "why don't you just hammer the QB?"

Is the Pistol here to stay? If you believe Trent Dilfer, you’d better get used to seeing it.[/COLOR]

Having a system the is easy to understand,does not require elite defensive reading skills and let's a QB take advantage of his athletic abilities is perfect. But Dilfer is sadly mistaken if he does not think these QB's are not going to break down physically within 50 games or so.

 

[PatsDog]

Pistol is not the same thing as zone-read. Zone read is a play concept that can be run without being in the pistol formation, and and without having what is considered a "pistol" offense.

The term "zone read" is getting over-used now, and becoming sort of a catch-all like "wildcat" did starting a few years back.

Completely agree Oinko. I hear the Pistol used interchangeably with the Read-Option/Zone-Read. The Pistol is really just a starting formation that can incorporate a number of different offensive schemes. The defense looking at the Pistol formation pre-snap, can't really tell what's coming.

But, like Dilfer said, the Read-Option does give the offense a numbers advantage allowing the offense to 'unblock' a DE.

Who knows were it goes over time; but, a numbers advantage is something that generally lasts over time in the NFL. It's the trick plays like the Wildcat that don't last. My 'L', asking the QB to play wide receiver, what numbers advantage is that? What receiver threat is that. Certainly not a numbers advantage. Those are the schemes that get figured out by NFL defenses.

The other factor to consider is all of the future offensive players mastering the A11 & Read-Option in highschool and the Pistol & read-option in the NCAA graduating into the NFL. Plus, all of these young athletic QB's that can really throw.

 

[Demosthenes]

Pistol is not the same thing as zone-read. Zone read is a play concept that can be run without being in the pistol formation, and and without having what is considered a "pistol" offense.

The term "zone read" is getting over-used now, and becoming sort of a catch-all like "wildcat" did starting a few years back.

Getting back to the point that started all this, it could go either way. Brady is in the shotgun with Ridley to his left. Ball is snapped, Ridley slides towards Brady who tucks the ball into his gut, then pulls it back out and passes the ball. That's a play action pass from the shotgun.

With a QB like Tebow, Kaep, Russell, RG3 or Cam, the same basic play could either be a PAP just like it is with Brady, OR, it could be a Zone read play. The difference is whether there is a "read" or not during the mesh.

With Brady, as far as I can tell, there isn't much of a "read" at that point. It's just a standard play action fake. The intent is to pass the ball and that's what he's going to do regardless of the defense's reaction.

With the other QBs, it could be the same thing, OR, they could be reading a defender and then deciding which way to go with the play. Whether to give the ball on the dive, to keep the ball, or to pass.

Further complicating things is that even with a "pocket passer" like Brady, the fake might include a read. IF LB bites on the fake, then pass to the X, if LB doesn't bite, then pass to the Y or Z.



TL;DR version. Would actually need to see the play really to figure out if it was in fact a "zone read" play or if it was just a "normal" shotgun play action fake.

 

[DarrylS]

Getting back to the point that started all this, it could go either way. Brady is in the shotgun with Ridley to his left. Ball is snapped, Ridley slides towards Brady who tucks the ball into his gut, then pulls it back out and passes the ball. That's a play action pass from the shotgun.

With a QB like Tebow, Kaep, Russell, RG3 or Cam, the same basic play could either be a PAP just like it is with Brady, OR, it could be a Zone read play. The difference is whether there is a "read" or not during the mesh.

With Brady, as far as I can tell, there isn't much of a "read" at that point. It's just a standard play action fake. The intent is to pass the ball and that's what he's going to do regardless of the defense's reaction.

With the other QBs, it could be the same thing, OR, they could be reading a defender and then deciding which way to go with the play. Whether to give the ball on the dive, to keep the ball, or to pass.

Further complicating things is that even with a "pocket passer" like Brady, the fake might include a read. IF LB bites on the fake, then pass to the X, if LB doesn't bite, then pass to the Y or Z.

Would actually need to see the play really to figure out if it was in fact a "zone read" play or if it was just a "normal" shotgun play action fake.

Why do you think that this team will move from a precision timing offense, which has worked very well to a trick play offense???...

Do not see your scenario at all, this team will stick with what has worked and proven successful over the years...

Everything that is done after the snap is predicated on timing and location, so you want to have everyone mix it up because something might work??

Makes absolutely no sense to this long time patsfan...

 

[Shockt327]

Getting back to the point that started all this, it could go either way. Brady is in the shotgun with Ridley to his left. Ball is snapped, Ridley slides towards Brady who tucks the ball into his gut, then pulls it back out and passes the ball. That's a play action pass from the shotgun.

With a QB like Tebow, Kaep, Russell, RG3 or Cam, the same basic play could either be a PAP just like it is with Brady, OR, it could be a Zone read play. The difference is whether there is a "read" or not during the mesh.

With Brady, as far as I can tell, there isn't much of a "read" at that point. It's just a standard play action fake. The intent is to pass the ball and that's what he's going to do regardless of the defense's reaction.

With the other QBs, it could be the same thing, OR, they could be reading a defender and then deciding which way to go with the play. Whether to give the ball on the dive, to keep the ball, or to pass.

Further complicating things is that even with a "pocket passer" like Brady, the fake might include a read. IF LB bites on the fake, then pass to the X, if LB doesn't bite, then pass to the Y or Z.



TL;DR version. Would actually need to see the play really to figure out if it was in fact a "zone read" play or if it was just a "normal" shotgun play action fake.

I'm sorry you are not properly acknowledging what is the most important part of the entire play....

The biggest factor within the play is allowing an unblocked DE to pursuit either the QB or RB. If that DE chooses the RB, the ball stays with the QB; vice-versa. That is the entire key for the read, in the first place. Without that free rusher? There is no key. There is no read. There would be no imbalance in blocking in favor of the O, on the run. This is huge. (It isn't comparable to a simple play-action out of shot gun, either. The latter doesn't involve an unblocked DE's pursuit; which, again, is the part that creates the entire blocking-imbalance that makes it all work for the O on the run.)

Now, as this relates to Tom Brady? LOL. You'd absolutely never allow an unblocked DE into the backfield if Brady is your QB. He can't run. So it pretty much removes the indecision for the D. A QB like Brady isn't going to run with the ball, or throw while on the run. You can't just let your QB deal with an unblocked rusher if he can't run, either. Again, you aren't going to allow an unblocked DE to tee-off on an immobile QB. So, even if the QBs attempts to throw, he's safe to do so because he can still run, if need be. Most of the throws are on the run too. That's huge. Too risky otherwise. So, the DE's indecision on the play would be null/void if it was against an immobile QB. End of story.

So, no, it really can't go either way. You need a mobile-QB for the concept; even if he's planning on throwing. Also, just b/c Tebow ran it in practice doesn't mean it has anything to do with Brady.

 

[Boogs]

Why do you think that this team will move from a precision timing offense, which has worked very well to a trick play offense???...

Do not see your scenario at all, this team will stick with what has worked and proven successful over the years...

Everything that is done after the snap is predicated on timing and location, so you want to have everyone mix it up because something might work??

Makes absolutely no sense to this long time patsfan...

I'm sure Brady will continue to be Brady. He won't try to be somebody else. He'll probably stick to what works for him. I agree, why would TB change what has worked? Demosthenes is probably only explaining how the same offensive formation might be used by Tebow if by some odd/rare occurrence he is called upon.

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm sure Brady will continue to be Brady. He won't try to be somebody else. He'll probably stick to what works for him. I agree, why would TB change what has worked? Demosthenes is probably only explaining how the same offensive formation might be used by Tebow if by some odd/rare occurrence he is called upon.

Pretty much. Basically I was pointing out that the exact same formation and start of a play could be EITHER a "standard" PAP from the shotgun or a Zone Read play from the Shotgun.

I stated that you really needed to see the play in question to determine which one it was. Shockt327 nailed it when he brought up the point about the blocking schemes and the unblocked defender (doesn't HAVE to be the DE). That would tell you it was a read option play.

 

[Shockt327]

Pretty much. Basically I was pointing out that the exact same formation and start of a play could be EITHER a "standard" PAP from the shotgun or a Zone Read play from the Shotgun.

I stated that you really needed to see the play in question to determine which one it was. Shockt327 nailed it when he brought up the point about the blocking schemes and the unblocked defender (doesn't HAVE to be the DE). That would tell you it was a read option play.

Thanks!

And yes, it doesn't just have to be the DE that's left unblocked; though it's usually an edge rusher (though I have seen some wacky variation; particularly from Oregon).

So, anyway, I don't know how people started discussing the idea of Brady running the zone read: he won't (like, ever). And a back-up QB working on a play, doesn't mean he's going to get to run it during the actual game. It simply means he is practicing. Remember, practice is meant to help the defense too. The zone-read is a legit threat, in this league. Makes sense to run it in practice.

 

[Demosthenes]

Thanks!

And yes, it doesn't just have to be the DE that's left unblocked; though it's usually an edge rusher (though I have seen some wacky variation; particularly from Oregon).

So, anyway, I don't know how people started discussing the idea of Brady running the zone read: he won't (like, ever). And a back-up QB working on a play, doesn't mean he's going to get to run it during the actual game. It simply means he is practicing. Remember, practice is meant to help the defense too. The zone-read is a legit threat, in this league. Makes sense to run it in practice.

YW. FTR, I didn't get into the blocking assignments because I really wasn't trying to explain the Read Option from A to Z. The linked piece earlier in the thread did that. I was looking at what the formation and what the QB does right up to the mesh.

As for the "wacky variation", it's called the Mid Line Read/Option and it's actually pretty common.


WRT your last points, I agree, Brady would never be asked to run it and it's definitely good practice for the defense to see it.

 

[manxman2601]

Why do you think that this team will move from a precision timing offense, which has worked very well to a trick play offense???...

Do not see your scenario at all, this team will stick with what has worked and proven successful over the years...

Everything that is done after the snap is predicated on timing and location, so you want to have everyone mix it up because something might work??

Makes absolutely no sense to this long time patsfan...

Not jumping on you or making the argument one way or the other but I do feel that an important distinction should be made. From what I know of BB's approach, the bolded should read:

"this team will stick with what will work and will prove to be successful over the coming years"

You're almost certainly right to say that that means Brady and a precision offense, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that BB sees the writing on the wall as regards the growth of the read-option in the NFL and that being prepared for the possibilty is a smart approach to take moving forward.

 

[Triumph]

Just read an article in this mornings news, and that claimed that because of the precision of offensive schemes.. cannot just put in a "running" quarterback in a "pocket passing" scheme... the breaks for receivers would be completely different as would be the blocking assignments for the O lineman.. when Cassell stepped in, he essentially was a carbon copy of Brady... Mallett is pretty much the same.

Those of you who hope for something different need to study how this offense works...

No, he wasnt.

The Pats transitioned into more of a running team. If you believe that Cassel is like Brady then you need to put the pipe down this second. Cassel struggles in the passing game and is a carbon copy of Sanchez.

Moreover, Mallet hasnt proved a thing. He has a big arm. Thats about it. Tebow is light years ahead of Mallet in terms of NFL presence and poise while Mallet has looked like the shakiest gun in the East.

 

[Nunchucks]

No, he wasnt.

The Pats transitioned into more of a running team. If you believe that Cassel is like Brady then you need to put the pipe down this second. Cassel struggles in the passing game and is a carbon copy of Sanchez.

Moreover, Mallet hasnt proved a thing. He has a big arm. Thats about it. Tebow is light years ahead of Mallet in terms of NFL presence and poise while Mallet has looked like the shakiest gun in the East.

Right, the poise and presence to take a 20+ yard sack or hold onto the ball for 15 seconds in practice.....Maybe you should review what the words "poise and presence" mean in a football context.

 

[manxman2601]

Right, the poise and presence to take a 20+ yard sack or hold onto the ball for 15 seconds in practice.....Maybe you should review what the words "poise and presence" mean in a football context.

Has any QB been held more accountable for one sack in what was effectively a rookie year? For crying out loud, get over it already. If we're questioning "poise and presence", let's all obsess about intentional grounding safeties being given up in Superbowls. Yes, using one play to critique a QB is that stupid.

All Tebow has ever done is win (except with the Jets). Yes he's had good teams about him but so have many other less successful QBs. That Tebow helps translate that talent into wins is in considerable part down to his "poise and presence". Heck, if he didn't have presence, then we wouldn't be talking about him so much.