Tebow working on zone-read plays in practice (EDIT: and "catching passes" too)

[Demosthenes]

Strawman argument. Where did I say QB's are an unimportant expense?

Do you think Big Ben and his 22 passer rating "won" Super Bowl 40? Should he get credit for that win?

There's an excellent reason why QB's don't have a win-loss record like pitchers do in baseball.

Do you run around correcting people who say that Brady has won 3 SBs ? Or PFManning won 1 ? Or Eli won 3 >? Or Montana won 4? Or Bradshaw won 4 ?


BTW, QB's don't have win-loss records ?

No, the Broncos were 9-7 in games Tebow started. That is much more accurate than what you said.

What I said was quite accurate, thank you very much.

No I just always hated the argument that QB's win. It just sounds like it's something that only fans with a real lack of knowledge of the game would say.


"Tebow just wins"... nope.

Whether you like it or not, or whether you think it valid or not, is immaterial. The fact is, QBs are most often judged by their Won / Loss record and they are the only player position with that distinction.

 

[Demosthenes]

I love the smell of quarterbacks who have a career 47.9% completion percentage in the morning. It smells like victory.

- Robert Duvall at Patriots Practice last week

Eli Manning, 2004, 48.2 %.

 

[manxman2601]

I love the smell of quarterbacks who have a career 47.9% completion percentage in the morning. It smells like victory.

- Robert Duvall at Patriots Practice last week

Ha ha. So you admit that Tebow is a winner


]Ickey Shuffle Animated GIF | GIFs - GIFSoup.com

 

[sb1]

Do you run around correcting people who say that Brady has won 3 SBs ? Or PFManning won 1 ? Or Eli won 3 >? Or Montana won 4? Or Bradshaw won 4 ?

"Brady won 3 super bowl games" is wrong. And you are talking about championships not "wins" so that is a strawman argument anyway. Wins are not a QB stat. They are a team stat. Always was. Always will be. You can believe otherwise if you wish, that doesn't make that belief any less wrong.

BTW, QB's don't have win-loss records ?

Sure, for every one site that tracks that stat I can show you 10 that do not. I would say there is a very good reason for that, yes? It is interesting that for baseball pitchers, their W-L record is tracked on EVERY stat site and yet for QB's that is not true. Maybe because unlike baseball pitchers...QB's cannot possibly win games by themselves in their sport. Maybe because...W-L is completely and utterly meaningless for a QB. Wins are not, never were, and never will be a QB stat. They are a TEAM stat (and the QB is part of said team). Period.

What I said was quite accurate, thank you very much.

Nope. Not accurate at all.

Whether you like it or not, or whether you think it valid or not, is immaterial. The fact is, QBs are most often judged by their Won / Loss record and they are the only player position with that distinction.

Yes, judged as such by either ignorant football fans who don't know any better or fans with their own bias and the "wins" make their guy look better. Feel free to refer to my point above about "Wins are not a QB stat....".

 

[sb1]

Hypothetical: QB plays a "perfect" game. Say...30-30, obviously a perfect passer rating, and 5 TD passes. No INTs, no turnovers, no sacks. For arguments sake assume he plays as good as a QB possibly can.

On the other hand, the defense allows 5 TDs plus a field goal. Then in the last drive of the game, that very same QB leads his team down the field and kicker misses the game tying field goal. Team loses.

Therefore, by this laughably ignorant "QB's win games" logic....that guy "lost" the game. Yeah.

If that doesn't illustrate how meaningless a "W-L record" is for a QB, then I don't know what will.

 

[sb1]

Eli Manning, 2004, 48.2 %.

And Ryan Leaf, 48.4%. What's your point?

 

[Demosthenes]

Hypothetical: QB plays a "perfect" game. Say...30-30, obviously a perfect passer rating, and 5 TD passes. No INTs, no turnovers, no sacks. For arguments sake assume he plays as good as a QB possibly can.

On the other hand, the defense allows 5 TDs plus a field goal. Then in the last drive of the game, that very same QB leads his team down the field and kicker misses the game tying field goal. Team loses.

Therefore, by this laughably ignorant "QB's win games" logic....that guy "lost" the game. Yeah.

If that doesn't illustrate how meaningless a "W-L record" is for a QB, then I don't know what will.

The fact remains that QBs are indeed judged by their Win Loss record. I completely agree with the overall point you are making with regard to it's validity. But, as the saying goes, it is what it is.

Every Sunday we are treated to announcers and experts telling us what a QB's record is as a starter. After the games, we sit back and listen to the analysts/former players who tell us at the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not the QB put a W on the board.

Here on this forum recently, there was yet another debate about who was better, Manning, Rodgers or Brady. Out came the statements that "if BRADY WINS ANOTHER SB, he is definitely GOAT".

The QB gets the credit. That's just the reality of the world whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not.

 

[manxman2601]

And Ryan Leaf, 48.4%. What's your point?

That completion % stats are meaningless without context I suspect. That criticising Tebow for his first year completion percentage being sub 50%, doesn't necessarily mean that he won't go on to win a couple of SB (d%#*!@t! I mean be part of of two SB winning teams), that people actually tend to improve as they gain experience etc. In other words, dropping Tebow's completion percentage as a fait accompli critique is about as dumb as things get.

 

[Demosthenes]

And Ryan Leaf, 48.4%. What's your point?

A number of points actually. First, it's silly to judge a QB on his first 16 NFL starts as most QBs take time to develop and they often get better over time.

belicheck010405 sees Tebow's 47% comp as proof that he isn't an NFL QB. Eli's comp % was 48.2% in his first 7 starts and I think he was still under 50% through his first 16 starts.

Yet, the guy is sitting there with a fat contract, 2 SB titles, 2 SB MVP trophies and is considered to be one of the better QBs currently playing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that Tebow will get better and be a good QB, but, it does demonstrate that it's rather STUPID to throw that percentage into a conversation to try and claim that he isn't an NFL QB.

 

[sb1]

The fact remains that QBs are indeed judged by their Win Loss record. I completely agree with the overall point you are making with regard to it's validity. But, as the saying goes, it is what it is.

Championships... perhaps (although that has it's own flaws too... dilfer 1 marino 0 for instance) .

But not wins.

Every Sunday we are treated to announcers and experts telling us what a QB's record is as a starter.

Maybe for a guy with a "he just wins" reputation but that is the exception and not even close to the rule.

After the games, we sit back and listen to the analysts/former players who tell us at the end of the day, it comes down to whether or not the QB put a W on the board.

Big Ben had a 22 passer rating in Super Bowl 40. Did the Steelers QB put the win on the board? I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that he did.

Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. Whatever the QB does is because of his line, his receivers, his running game etc... and his coaches. As the example I gave showed, a QB cannot possibly win a game on his own. A baseball pitcher can do so. He can strike out every batter he faces. Something like that cannot possibly be done in football. Hence wins = team stat. Obviously... the QB is a major part of the team and his performance will have a lot of say into whether the team wins. But it's still a team stat in the end.

Here on this forum recently, there was yet another debate about who was better, Manning, Rodgers or Brady. Out came the statements that "if BRADY WINS ANOTHER SB, he is definitely GOAT".

Again, you are talking about championships, not just wins. That is a different argument.

The QB gets the credit. That's just the reality of the world whether you like it or not, or whether you agree with it or not.

People choosing to believe the ignorant viewpoint does not make it so.

 

[belichick010405]

Ha ha. So you admit that Tebow is a winner

I didn't say that Tebow is a winner.

I used Duvall's line in order to make the point of the argument that Tebow having a career completion rate of 47.9% is a "victory" for those who feel that Tebow will have to overcome long odds in ever being a Super Bowl winning quarterback which is what the New England Patriots are all about.

 

[manxman2601]

I didn't say that Tebow is a winner.

I used Duvall's line in order to make the point of the argument that Tebow having a career completion rate of 47.9% is a "victory" for those who feel that Tebow will have to overcome long odds in ever being a Super Bowl winning quarterback which is what the New England Patriots are all about.

I was joking. I was pretty sure you hadn't come round.

 

[sb1]

A number of points actually. First, it's silly to judge a QB on his first 16 NFL starts as most QBs take time to develop and they often get better over time.

Totally agree. But it's not often a guy with a sub 50% goes on to have a flourishing career as an NFL QB. For every Eli Manning there is Ryan Leaf and then some.

belicheck010405 sees Tebow's 47% comp as proof that he isn't an NFL QB. Eli's comp % was 48.2% in his first 7 starts and I think he was still under 50% through his first 16 starts.

Tebow's future as a QB is unknown. We can't say what will happen in the future. All we have to go on is his track record and a sub 50% completion rate so far in a passing era doesn't exactly leave an optimistic impression of the future.

 

[larryo]

A number of points actually. First, it's silly to judge a QB on his first 16 NFL starts as most QBs take time to develop and they often get better over time.

belicheck010405 sees Tebow's 47% comp as proof that he isn't an NFL QB. Eli's comp % was 48.2% in his first 7 starts and I think he was still under 50% through his first 16 starts.

Yet, the guy is sitting there with a fat contract, 2 SB titles, 2 SB MVP trophies and is considered to be one of the better QBs currently playing.

Of course, this doesn't mean that Tebow will get better and be a good QB, but, it does demonstrate that it's rather STUPID to throw that percentage into a conversation to try and claim that he isn't an NFL QB.

400 posts in 2 months. Youre on FIIIYAAAHHHH!

 

[Demosthenes]

Championships... perhaps (although that has it's own flaws too... dilfer 1 marino 0 for instance) .

But not wins.



Maybe for a guy with a "he just wins" reputation but that is the exception and not even close to the rule.



Big Ben had a 22 passer rating in Super Bowl 40. Did the Steelers QB put the win on the board? I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that he did.

Football is the ultimate TEAM sport. Whatever the QB does is because of his line, his receivers, his running game etc... and his coaches. As the example I gave showed, a QB cannot possibly win a game on his own. A baseball pitcher can do so. He can strike out every batter he faces. Something like that cannot possibly be done in football. Hence wins = team stat. Obviously... the QB is a major part of the team and his performance will have a lot of say into whether the team wins. But it's still a team stat in the end.



Again, you are talking about championships, not just wins. That is a different argument.



People choosing to believe the ignorant viewpoint does not make it so.

Dude, I actually agree with much of what you are saying wrt how "accurate" or how "valid" it is to talk about W/L record for QBs and that there are problems with it.

That said, again, the reality is that it's done every day by most people, even those with vast football knowledge.

But let's look at something you just said. WRT Brady being GOAT discussion, why is it a different argument to talk about Championships ? It's still a team game as you said.

The most likely reason that it would make a difference is the Joe Montana has 4 SB wins. If Brady had 4, then there would be no question. Note that this still credits the QB with the SB wins.

BTW, I fully understand that Football is a team sport. It's the ultimate team sport out of all major sports. That said, it's still an absolute fact that the QB gets credit for the wins and losses.

 

[Demosthenes]

Totally agree. But it's not often a guy with a sub 50% goes on to have a flourishing career as an NFL QB. For every Eli Manning there is Ryan Leaf and then some.

I'd make the case that the odds are even worse. For every Eli, there's a Leaf AND a Jamarcus Russel AND an Akili Smith AND <insert quite a few more names here>.

Tebow's future as a QB is unknown. We can't say what will happen in the future. All we have to go on is his track record and a sub 50% completion rate so far in a passing era doesn't exactly leave an optimistic impression of the future.

We also have his 7-4 record with a team that was previously 5-22. As well as a playoff victory over the Steelers with his overall record being 9-7. Throw in 6 4th Q comebacks and 7 game winning drives.

Nothing that screams out "Future Hall of Famer" to be sure, but enough to warrant some development time.

 

[sb1]

Dude, I actually agree with much of what you are saying wrt how "accurate" or how "valid" it is to talk about W/L record for QBs and that there are problems with it.

That said, again, the reality is that it's done every day by most people, even those with vast football knowledge.

It probably is. But it doesn't make it factual. I believe that is called the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

But let's look at something you just said. WRT Brady being GOAT discussion, why is it a different argument to talk about Championships ? It's still a team game as you said.

I agree. But this conversation started about wins and you said people judge QB's by wins. I have a hard time agreeing with that. Judged by championships or rings? That I can buy. And that's true for any big name in sports. How was LeBron James judged before and after his rings?

The most likely reason that it would make a difference is the Joe Montana has 4 SB wins. If Brady had 4, then there would be no question. Note that this still credits the QB with the SB wins.

Montana also threw 0 INTs in all his Super Bowls combined and he's known to this day for leading his team to one of the most clutch drives this sport has ever seen. It goes beyond just winning, it's putting your team on your back and elevating your game when it matters the most.

 

[manxman2601]

I'd make the case that the odds are even worse. For every Eli, there's a Leaf AND a Jamarcus Russel AND an Akili Smith AND <insert quite a few more names here>.




We also have his 7-4 record with a team that was previously 5-22. As well as a playoff victory over the Steelers with his overall record being 9-7. Throw in 6 4th Q comebacks and 7 game winning drives.

Nothing that screams out "Future Hall of Famer" to be sure, but enough to warrant some development time.

Ahem. If you don't mind:

We also have his team's 7-4 record with a team that was previously 5-22. As well as being part of a victorious team in the playoffs over the Steelers with his team's overall record being 9-7. Throw in 6 4th Q comebacks by his offense and 7 game winning drives ditto.


Phew, fixed it just in time. It's now a statistically correct statement albeit wordy, redundant and not the type of language that any normal person speaks

 

[sb1]

I'd make the case that the odds are even worse. For every Eli, there's a Leaf AND a Jamarcus Russel AND an Akili Smith AND <insert quite a few more names here>.

We also have his 7-4 record with a team that was previously 5-22. As well as a playoff victory over the Steelers with his overall record being 9-7. Throw in 6 4th Q comebacks and 7 game winning drives.

Not going to argue with that. But did he really do that all by himself?

Nothing that screams out "Future Hall of Famer" to be sure, but enough to warrant some development time.

I have no idea what BB and Josh are planning to do with him but it will be very interesting to say the least.

 

[sb1]

Ahem. If you don't mind:

We also have his team's 7-4 record with a team that was previously 5-22. As well as being part of a victorious team in the playoffs over the Steelers with his team's overall record being 9-7. Throw in 6 4th Q comebacks by his offense and 7 game winning drives ditto.


Phew, fixed it just in time. It's now a statistically correct statement albeit wordy, redundant and not the type of language that any normal person speaks

I have less of a problem with that than "<QB> just wins". No he does not "just win", his team did. And round we go...