The Official B!tch about the secondary/pass coverage thread

[Deus Irae]

Wow, such elevated discourse you're offering here. Really adds a lot to the board.

"Fire the secondary coach!" with no reasoning behind it isn't adding anything to the conversation. Pointing that out does, at least, have some value.

 

[PatsFan2]

Here's where I am with this. I don't think anyone is making the case that the secondary is being helped by the coaching. I think, and I've said before, that saying the guys the Pats have cut haven't gone on to excel elsewhere is a fair point. I don't think it's determinative (that it's all a talent issue) but it's a reasonable point to make.

But I am pretty confident at this point that a coaching change wouldn't hurt. (If this all comes from Belichick, then the secondary will be pretty much doomed until he leaves; that means he's picking these guys AND coaching them, so there's nowhere to go.)

A change would show accountability, which Belichick always preaches. If a player's not doing the job, then try to find someone who can. The same should apply to coaches.

And most importantly, a new coach MIGHT help. It's possible. (I hope). I really don't think it could hurt.

So outside of making Josh Boyer and his family feel bad for awhile, I just don't see the downside of making a change.
__________________

You make valid points...if something ain't working you make changes and fix it. This has been touched on the before. Year 1 CB look like Perennial Pro Bowler. Year two he plays like Chis Canty...that Bobby Grier pick many moons ago. We need to shake up the Coahing department. We can write 12 page essay on the failures at WR's also. Like someone said before we have too many Yes Dad assistants around here.

 

[aluminum seats]

"Fire the secondary coach!" with no reasoning behind it isn't adding anything to the conversation. Pointing that out does, at least, have some value.

Actually, there's been a great deal of reasoning expressed behind it. But your infamous wrong-headedness here invariably eventually gets reduced to you name-calling.

 

[aluminum seats]

You make valid points...if something ain't working you make changes and fix it. This has been touched on the before. Year 1 CB look like Perennial Pro Bowler. Year two he plays like Chis Canty...that Bobby Grier pick many moons ago. We need to shake up the Coahing department. We can write 12 page essay on the failures at WR's also. Like someone said before we have too many Yes Dad assistants around here.

Exactly. We've all seen this happen over and over again.

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually, there's been a great deal of reasoning expressed behind it. But your infamous wrong-headedness here invariably eventually gets reduced to you name-calling.

No, there hasn't been a great deal of reasoning expressed behind it. I find it funny that you think "but the DBs suck!" is applicable reasoning here, though, so keep up the comedy.

 

[Deus Irae]

You make valid points...if something ain't working you make changes and fix it. This has been touched on the before. Year 1 CB look like Perennial Pro Bowler. Year two he plays like Chis Canty...that Bobby Grier pick many moons ago. We need to shake up the Coahing department. We can write 12 page essay on the failures at WR's also. Like someone said before we have too many Yes Dad assistants around here.

Actually, the WR issues prove my point. What was needed was talent at the position, not coaching. Lloyd has clearly proven that. Meanwhile, Brandon Tate has 5 catches in 6 games this year, and that same 5 catches in the two years since being cut by the Patriots. So.....


Thanks for helping me prove my point.

 

[olschool]

You're saying get rid of Boyer, but you've got no reason to do so. If you want to talk about failure, talk about the failure of the team's talent evaluation and procurement for DBs in the post-2004 era. It's not just the last 3 years, after all, which is another reason why your griping about Boyer doesn't make sense.

Exactly... With a revolving door for both defensive backs and wide receivers over the past seven years you have to wonder who's finding these guys.

 

[aluminum seats]

No, there hasn't been a great deal of reasoning expressed behind it. I find it funny that you think "but the DBs suck!" is applicable reasoning here, though, so keep up the comedy.

OK.....that's not the reasoning, but I wouldn't expect you to be able to absorb that as you race ahead to your next post.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK.....that's not the reasoning, but I wouldn't expect you to be able to absorb that as you race ahead to your next post.

I used an oft-stated gripe as an example of non-reasoning that people like to call reasoning. It's something you do consistently.

Here, convince me. Lay out an actual, well-reasoned case for the following:

1.) It's not a talent issue
2.) It's a coaching issue
3.) It's a coaching issue specific to the current secondary coach

In doing so, please do it in the above order, and please remember to counter the most obvious responses to your claims, so that we can have this all wrapped up in one proof post.

 

[aluminum seats]

I used an oft-stated gripe as an example of non-reasoning that people like to call reasoning. It's something you do consistently.

Here, convince me. Lay out an actual, well-reasoned case for the following:

1.) It's not a talent issue
2.) It's a coaching issue
3.) It's a coaching issue specific to the current secondary coach

In doing so, please do it in the above order, and please remember to counter the most obvious responses to your claims, so that we can have this all wrapped up in one proof post.

As much as I appreciate you giving me an assignment, I'll have to decline. But here's what you can do:

Lay out an actual, well-reasoned case why the ongoing suckiness of the secondary is not a result of the coaching. Include in your presentation specific details as to why several Pats' players in the secondary (such as, but not limited to, Eugene Wilson, Devin McCourty) began their Patriots careers with noticeable success before regressing. Also, detail what actions and/or characteristics of the current secondary coach are helping the Patriots be a better team.

Your assignment should be completed no later than Wednesday. Let's say a thousand words, single space.

 

[Deus Irae]

As much as I appreciate you giving me an assignment, I'll have to decline...

And, thus, you demonstrate the point of my responses to you. After all, if the points already litter the thread, as you seen to imply, cutting and pasting should take you almost no time at all.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Here's where I am with this. I don't think anyone is making the case that the secondary is being helped by the coaching. I think, and I've said before, that saying the guys the Pats have cut haven't gone on to excel elsewhere is a fair point. I don't think it's determinative (that it's all a talent issue) but it's a reasonable point to make.

But I am pretty confident at this point that a coaching change wouldn't hurt. (If this all comes from Belichick, then the secondary will be pretty much doomed until he leaves; that means he's picking these guys AND coaching them, so there's nowhere to go.)

A change would show accountability, which Belichick always preaches. If a player's not doing the job, then try to find someone who can. The same should apply to coaches.

And most importantly, a new coach MIGHT help. It's possible. (I hope). I really don't think it could hurt.

So outside of making Josh Boyer and his family feel bad for awhile, I just don't see the downside of making a change.
__________________

IMO The Secondary players have less talent than the secondary coach can handle....that is what I think is the bottom line here

If Boyer was coaching Revis,Webb or another highly ranked player from the beginning of their career,I hardly think they would stink right now.

Webb,Revis are guys that have God given natural talent and are what they are....talented players.

We don't have that back there,at least i haven't seen much of it since McCourty's rookie year which still boggles my mind of how he did it back then.

In horse racing,good horses generally continue to win despite whoever is the trainer,getting a new trainer does not mean they will suddenly become a poor racer.

 

[JMarr]

Haven't read the whole thread, but I'll just say that our secondary isn't nearly as bad as most people think. They have talent back there. The problem is that they're young and have absolutely no leadership. You've got a problem when Chung is the "leader" of your secondary and has the most experience in the system.

Most people focus on bashing individual players for getting beaten each week, harping on their physical or mental limitations or "not being coached properly." Usually it's a different guy every week, and it's been that way since Rodney retired, lol.

In other thread someone said that, as badly as it pained them, they'd rather see a guy like Sanders or Merriweather back there right now, and I couldn't agree more. The most important thing about a secondary is having experience and cohesion. Ours just isn't there yet.

There's room to b!tch about poor drafting and lack of quality FA acquisitions, but again I think it's mainly an experience issue. If not for Wilson's unforgivable mistake (how the hell do you let the WR get behind you there--I think i could have played it better than he did), people would be talking about other things right now.

 

[aluminum seats]

And, thus, you demonstrate the point of my responses to you. After all, if the points already litter the thread, as you seen to imply, cutting and pasting should take you almost no time at all.

No, the point is why should I look to collect information for you that you were unable to absorb the first time.

And since you haven't completed your assignment, I'll have to give you a zero. Your punishment will be not to post for five seconds.

 

[Run DMC]

Fire the DB coach:

This clown, Boyer, has the most unimpressive football resume I can recall. Is it so difficult to teach these guys to turn around and look at the g****m ball?!!
Josh Boyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Once again, the deadly combination of hubris and cheapness comes back to bite us on the azz yet again.:bricks:

 

[Cassanova792]

No one but the people close to the Patriots can actually tell you if the problem is talent or coaching. It could be a case of both. However i would like to point out that The Patriots secondary once consisted of the likes of Ja'Rod Cherry, Otis Smith, Randall Gay, Tyrone Poole, Hank Poteat, Troy Brown etc and were highly successful. I dont think its talent, it's coaching/scheme.

 

[n1e]

Re: Fire the DB coach:

let's throw Matt Patricia on there as well, fcking garbage no idea why he was handed the DC position instead of Pepper

 

[PatsFan2]

Re: Fire the DB coach:

This clown, Boyer, has the most unimpressive football resume I can recall. Is it so difficult to teach these guys to turn around and look at the g****m ball?!!
Josh Boyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Once again, the deadly combination of hubris and cheapness comes back to bite us on the azz yet again.:bricks:

So we have a Divison Ten 10 guy Coaching in the Pros? this remind of the last guy who was head of FEMA...got the job because he knew someone. Does this guy have pictures of someone?:camera:

 

[ensoul]

Re: Fire the DB coach:

This was brought this up on the radio as well. The guys on WEEI and The hub think that these DB coaches are actually making these players worse. They brought up Mccourty and Chung and how they were better in their rookie season than they are now. Is is something to think about.

 

[QB12]

Re: Fire the DB coach:

I agree. Is there anyone on this board who can honestly say that when we punted the ball back to them with about 4 minutes left, that our defense would hold them and we would win the game?