Wide Receiver thoughts

[BananaRepublican]

I think the only way that happens is if it comes at a cost in reduced stats for Gronk and Hernandez. There's only so many passes to go around.

A very TRUE statement and we do need to stop playing fantasy at some point and realize that their value to the team is measured in their value to the system and its bigger objectives. This isn't just some offense of WRs.

 

[Rob0729]

Nice thoughts on the original post.

I'm usually optimistic, but right now the WR situation concerns me a bit. Here are my issues:

In the 2010 playoff game against the Jets, Rex Ryan went 1 deep all night long and trusted outside coverage to his CBs. That game him 1 extra guy to stick to the midfield on either spying duties, zones, doubling our inside receivers or covering the run/screen plays.

In that game, we should have learned one lesson the hard way: If we cannot bring in a group that forces the opponent to stretch the field vertically, then all they need to make TBs life miserable are 2 talented corners.

In 2010, sure there was the "when the going gets tough, abandon the run" mentality going on with TB and OBrien, but nonetheless our personnel grouping is still looking like it lacks one dimension. The vertical one.

Its not so much about completing deep passes, as it is about forcing the opponent to account for that possiblity. If they play bold and reckless like Ryan did in the 2010 playoffs, then TB has to thread a needle on every throw in the short and intermediate inside routes. We know he can do it, but not on every down.

McD loves to run, and he loves screens. But he also loves the deep pass, which usually complements those two very well. That is why releasing both Gaffney and Stallworth amazed me. Now we have only 1 legit outside receiver who can burn CBs. I'm sorry to say this, but as reliable as Branch is, he is no longer an outside threat against a talented corner.

Huh?!? You do realize two things:

1.) The Pats did add Brandon Lloyd who brings the outside/deep threat to the team which was missing in the 2010 playoff game against the Jets.
2.) The Pats have played the Jets two more times since then and that strategy has not worked.

 

[Finnishfan]

Good point, but also we don't know how Smith is going to act getting him the ball. In fact I have some doubts that down field threats are anything but hot air with an offense that thrives in ball control situations. I think it might be all decoys rather than big numbers.

Either Smith does things we've never seen (possible but not likely) or Moss is going to melt down from being the league's biggest decoy.

There are only two ways you can stretch a defense to create more room between the hashmarks. Those are outside the hashmarks or down the field.

Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and our RBs sure would appreciate as much room as possible.

High paid hot air is fine by me. Throw that decoy a duck or two in a game, either on 1st downs or 2nd and short when you feel like its safe to go to him coveragewise.

 

[BananaRepublican]

McD loves to run, and he loves screens. But he also loves the deep pass, which usually complements those two very well. That is why releasing both Gaffney and Stallworth amazed me. Now we have only 1 legit outside receiver who can burn CBs. I'm sorry to say this, but as reliable as Branch is, he is no longer an outside threat against a talented corner.

Stallworth apparently lacked the concentration and hands to take advantage of his speed. So that tells you that defenders do not fear speed as much as they will fear somebody like Lloyd. Who cares how fast you are if you can't catch?

McD knows what Lloyd can do. He can gain separation with his moves, and defenders will certainly respect that. He will draw people away from center field. Unquestionably.

 

[Finnishfan]

Huh?!? You do realize two things:

1.) The Pats did add Brandon Lloyd who brings the outside/deep threat to the team which was missing in the 2010 playoff game against the Jets.
2.) The Pats have played the Jets two more times since then and that strategy has not worked.

Whats with the "Huh?!".

1) You did read my post right? I said we got 1 outside threat. That isnt enough to stretch the field and force the opponent to play 2 deep. Also, despite being an excellent wideout, Lloyd isnt a speedster. Hernandez can run 40 yards faster.

2) I havent analyzed those two regular season games so thoroughly, and neither have I read any in depth analysis about them. But if I remember correctly, our hurry up offense, TEs and smart running game helped us there. Its kinda hard to play no-subs and hurry up if Lloyd is running deep...

 

[Finnishfan]

Stallworth apparently lacked the concentration and hands to take advantage of his speed. So that tells you that defenders do not fear speed as much as they will fear somebody like Lloyd. Who cares how fast you are if you can't catch?

McD knows what Lloyd can do. He can gain separation with his moves, and defenders will certainly respect that. He will draw people away from center field. Unquestionably.

Yeah I guess that when you shop for free, you get...

You read me wrong if you thought I have anything against Lloyd. I trust him 100%. I also trust Welkers commitment. What I dont like is that we cannot field 2 true outside receivers even if we wanted to. Or then Branch has gone 2 steps forward instead of 1 step back that he took last year.

 

[BBass]

Wild card question. Has Slater shown any development as a WR? Obviously not a top target but he certainly has blow by the corner speed. Any thought that he could see 10 snaps a game as a WR?

Any thoughts from people who have seen practices?

 

[BBass]

Whats with the "Huh?!".

1) You did read my post right? I said we got 1 outside threat. That isnt enough to stretch the field and force the opponent to play 2 deep. Also, despite being an excellent wideout, Lloyd isnt a speedster. Hernandez can run 40 yards faster.

2) I havent analyzed those two regular season games so thoroughly, and neither have I read any in depth analysis about them. But if I remember correctly, our hurry up offense, TEs and smart running game helped us there. Its kinda hard to play no-subs and hurry up if Lloyd is running deep...

I didn't see a ton of Lloyd in the past but several articles ranked him in the top 10 for deep threats going into 2011. I agree he isn't a speedster but neither do a number of top deep threats. Lloyd does offer the ability go up for the ball and has outstanding body control. That is what makes him a deep threat.

 

[Rob0729]

Whats with the "Huh?!".

1) You did read my post right? I said we got 1 outside threat. That isnt enough to stretch the field and force the opponent to play 2 deep. Also, despite being an excellent wideout, Lloyd isnt a speedster. Hernandez can run 40 yards faster.

2) I havent analyzed those two regular season games so thoroughly, and neither have I read any in depth analysis about them. But if I remember correctly, our hurry up offense, TEs and smart running game helped us there. Its kinda hard to play no-subs and hurry up if Lloyd is running deep...

Please name all these teams with two deep threats. The league has become a short passing league. There aren't a lot of teams with two deep threats.

You do realize you only need one deep threat to force opposing defenses to play two safeties deep at least part of the time? You only need one if you can keep the deep safety in the center of the field and play the entire deep part to be the saftey valve if someone gets by all the defenders in the short to intermediate range. Once you need a safety to cover the over the top route of a deep threat, you need to bring the other safety back to cover the rest of the field. If Lloyd is running a deep route on the left sideline and the safety goes to help over the top there and then they throw a short pass to Welker on the right sideline, how is that safety going to get over to help out over the top if Welker breaks through the first line of defense. It would require two safeties deep.

How many plays do you think teams run that have deep routes? Most deep threat WRs are not running 30 yard routes on every play. What is more important than the deep threat is an outside WR which Lloyd and those are 10-20 yard routes at most and can easily be run in the hurry up.

The Pats beat the Jets by killing them with the TEs. They exploited the weakness of their safties and Kyle Wilson. The big difference was the emergence of the TEs.

I still think people overstate the Jets' gameplan. I think it had more to do with the fact that Rex Ryan never runs a zone defense and he run it almost exclusively against the Pats that night which caught them off guard. Also, Brady did complete 64.4% of his passes for 299 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 INT. It wasn't like the Jets shut him down. He didn't have a great game, but he wasn't like he played against the Giants with their monster pass rush.

 

[Finnishfan]

I didn't see a ton of Lloyd in the past but several articles ranked him in the top 10 for deep threats going into 2011. I agree he isn't a speedster but neither do a number of top deep threats. Lloyd does offer the ability go up for the ball and has outstanding body control. That is what makes him a deep threat.

True. But again, I never questionned Lloyds vertical abilities. I questionned whether we have a 2nd guy who can stretch the field. Lloyd demands the attention from 1 safety, but who will do that on the opposite side of the field?

Or what if Lloyd gets injured, who will we then convince that we can get separation on the outside?

 

[ATippett56]

Has Slater shown any development as a WR?

Slater has the worst set of hands of any skill position player on the New England Patriots roster.

I'm surprised that the New England Patriots organization has not developed Slater into a backup safety. In a nutshell, Slater can tackle, can't catch.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Slater has the worst set of hands of any skill position player on the New England Patriots roster.

I'm surprised that the New England Patriots organization has not developed Slater into a backup safety. In a nutshell, Slater can tackle, can't catch.

There were times last year that I found myself thinking that there was no conceivable way that Slater could be worse at safety than some of the guys who were taking the field. Especially when we used him there a little bit early in his career.

 

[patfanken]

Rob they are no Dez White - Hakeem Nicks or Victor Cruz on this Team. One can debate that Welker will not be on this Team next year based on the $$$ he might be looking for. Where does that leave us then? Where is that young Stud WR in the wings?

Hakeem Nicks and Lloyd are a wash - Wes Welker is who Victor Cruz wants to grow up to be,. So lets cut the crap about we having no one who is as good as the Giants. Those 2 guys are good, but we have nothing to be ashamed of. BTW- want to compare TE's??????

 

[BBass]

True. But again, I never questionned Lloyds vertical abilities. I questionned whether we have a 2nd guy who can stretch the field. Lloyd demands the attention from 1 safety, but who will do that on the opposite side of the field?

Or what if Lloyd gets injured, who will we then convince that we can get separation on the outside?

We don't have one. Gaffney was not a deep threat at all more of a slot guy. Stallworth could of been a great deep threat based on talent but he hasn't been one his entire career. I'd say we are better off then last year but still not in a great place when it comes to outside receivers.

I think the misses on Brandon Tate and Taylor Price has set us back. We need to draft a WR high this off season.

 

[Reckedtrek]

We don't have one. Gaffney was not a deep threat at all more of a slot guy. Stallworth could of been a great deep threat based on talent but he hasn't been one his entire career. I'd say we are better off then last year but still not in a great place when it comes to outside receivers.

I think the misses on Brandon Tate and Taylor Price has set us back. We need to draft a WR high this off season.

We haven't even seen one regular season game yet! Good freakin' God, man!

 

[Joker]

We haven't even seen one regular season game yet! Good freakin' God, man!

c'mon...we don't have to...this is the primary CL extrapolation site on the net

 

[Finnishfan]

We don't have one. Gaffney was not a deep threat at all more of a slot guy. Stallworth could of been a great deep threat based on talent but he hasn't been one his entire career. I'd say we are better off then last year but still not in a great place when it comes to outside receivers.

I think the misses on Brandon Tate and Taylor Price has set us back. We need to draft a WR high this off season.

Well Jesse Holley got a lot of looks in that last preseason game. I'm not impressed with him, but at least he is a true wideout. Kinda hard to imagine Jeremy Ebert or Kerry Taylor getting in the final roster.

Anyways, I agree that our future at the WR position is looking very thin. I have faith in Edelman, but he is just about the only one I can see still playing WR on our team 3 years from now. Perhaps Lloyd as well, but he is also 30 years old so not a long term solution by any means.

You are correct about the Price and Tate misses setting us back big time.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Well Jesse Holley got a lot of looks in that last preseason game. I'm not impressed with him, but at least he is a true wideout. Kinda hard to imagine Jeremy Ebert or Kerry Taylor getting in the final roster.

Anyways, I agree that our future at the WR position is looking very thin. I have faith in Edelman, but he is just about the only one I can see still playing WR on our team 3 years from now. Perhaps Lloyd as well, but he is also 30 years old so not a long term solution by any means.

You are correct about the Price and Tate misses setting us back big time.

Actually I don't think the team has ever truly recovered from the loss of Robert Edwards. Granted he was a RB, but the team is so fragile, does it really matter?

 

[Clonamery]

You are correct about the Price and Tate misses setting us back big time.

Hilarious or I am missing something in the translation, big time.

 

[BradyManny]

Welker averaged 6.2 Yards after the catch last year. That is more yards after the catch than Calvin Johnson (5.7), Steve Smith (5.9), Roddy White (3.8), Brandon Marshall (4.2), and a lot of the other top receivers last year. Considering Welker is catching the ball in heavy traffic a lot, that is damn impressive. In fact, one of his greatest strengths is making the first defender to him miss him. Your description of him is wrong.

BTW, Gaffney had 2.9 YAC last year.

Brady puts the ball in places that maximize YAC. Maybe PFF wants to pretend that isn't a real phenomenon, but it is. Grossman vs. Brady...I don't think it's fair to compare what Gaffney after the catch with Welker.