Heavy on the Mayo

[Ring 6]

I agree with you point. But Willis is other worldly. IIRC there was a point midway through last season where he was leading his team tackles, sacks, AND interceptions. That's pretty awesome.

BTW- I don't understand why some people get on Mayo for NOT being Patrick Willis or Lawrence Taylor. Why can't people be happy having a plus LB who can play both inside and outside, is a tackling machine, and one of your top leaders. And if the lack of "big plays" is a problem, wait a minute, because his stat line on "big plays" is growing.

I am saying that to say the # of sacks Willis has vs Mayo is an ignorant comparison. Mayo gets no sacks because he hardly ever blitzes.
The same with tackles for loss in a 2gap vs a 1gap system.

Its not a matter of rating the players that I disagree with, its using poor criteria.
"Playmaking" for a 1gap blitzing LB who is free to roam, is very different than it is to a 2gap LB who doesn't blitz. When you on'y call playmaking the plays that one is asked to make and the other isn't, its a stupid discussion.

 

[ausbacker]

They play slightly different roles in slightly different systems.

The difference is NOWHERE close to being comparable to a Tight End not having Rushing Yards like you suggested earlier.

The fact is they've both played Inside Linebacker in a 34 defense for most of their careers. Both play ILB in Nickel packages.

Both have been responsible for stopping runs, blitzing, dropping in coverage, etc.


And Willis has done it much much better. Stop trying to act like we're comparing a Linebacker to a Nose Tackle.


Willis IS a better player and more of a playmaker.... Anyone who disagrees is simply a bias homer.

Nathan, there is a considerable difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap system. I'm not sure why you continue to gloss over this point.

Willis is a great player and is perhaps shading Mayo right now however, when Mayo is allowed, just sit back and enjoy the show.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I am saying that to say the # of sacks Willis has vs Mayo is an ignorant comparison. Mayo gets no sacks because he hardly ever blitzes.

You're grasping at straws. I don't know why you even attempt to continue to discussion. There is no way you can win, simply because Willis IS more of a playmaker than Mayo in EVERY SENSE of playmaking.


You mentioned the sack numbers again... but I already posted a bunch of OTHER numbers besides sacks that prove Willis is more of a playmaker.

Forced Fumbles, Tackles for Loss, Interceptions, Passes Defended..... Willis is far superior to Mayo in all of those categories. and those(along with sacks) are what are considered "splash plays" and what stick out as someone being a playmaker.


So what if Mayo and Willis play slightly different schemes. Tom Brady and Matt Moore also play different offensive schemes.

Does it mean we can't compare Tom Brady to Matt Moore and come to the conclusion that Brady is the better QB just because we run a different scheme? No. It's blasphemy that you're still even trying to argue after being proven wrong. You lost this discussion... take the L and move on.

 

[Ring 6]

You're grasping at straws. I don't know why you even attempt to continue to discussion. There is no way you can win, simply because Willis IS more of a playmaker than Mayo in EVERY SENSE of playmaking.

This is your typical ignorant approach to posting rearing its head again.
You comment about Willis concluding he is more of a playmaker, and I respond to POINTS WITHIN YOUR POST and all you can do is beat the drum, 'he is a playmaker so I am right'. It is either naive, disingenuous or a lack of reading comprehension.

You mentioned the sack numbers again... but I already posted a bunch of OTHER numbers besides sacks that prove Willis is more of a playmaker.

And I am discussing SOME of your comments.

Forced Fumbles, Tackles for Loss, Interceptions, Passes Defended..... Willis is far superior to Mayo in all of those categories. and those(along with sacks) are what are considered "splash plays" and what stick out as someone being a playmaker.

So you feel your argument works better if you invent a term?

So what if Mayo and Willis play slightly different schemes. Tom Brady and Matt Moore also play different offensive schemes.

They play SUBSTANTIALLY different scheme
If you don't understand the difference to an ILB of playing in a 2gap system vs a 1 gap system, especially as it relates to tackles for loss, there is no point in having a discussion. However perhaps you can explain how an ILB the is responsible to step up into the G, control him, and cover the gaps on either side of him has the same opportunity as one who's responsibliity is to shoot the C/G or G/T gap and blow up the play in the backfield. Likewise, please explain how you can consider the # of sacks a judgment on the player when one rushes the passer as a blitzer numerous times each game and the other goes entire games without ever doing so.
Your ignorant comparison of Brady and Moore, would be more appropriate if you were analagizing sacks and TFL between Mayo and Willis with passing yards last season between Brady and Tebow.

Does it mean we can't compare Tom Brady to Matt Moore and come to the conclusion that Brady is the better QB just because we run a different scheme? No. It's blasphemy that you're still even trying to argue after being proven wrong. You lost this discussion... take the L and move on.

That is a stupid example, and you know it. How about we compare sacks for an OLB who rushes the passer every player vs one who is always in coverage. Or Ints between the same players.
Your analogy says one is better, therefore one is better.

I wasn't aware a discussion was a win and lose proposition, perhaps that is why you are acting the way you are.
Once again, you can continue to argue which player is better and call that a strong argument in counter to me saying the criteria you are using is stupid, but you will only continue to look arrogant, misinformed and emotionally wounded.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Oh how sad.

You've already lost this argument. You've done NOTHING to prove Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of being a playmaker.

You will NEVER be able to prove that at this point in their careers, Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of playmaker stats. Sacks, INTs, FF, STF, Passes Defended.... You can't prove it because it's impossible to. Willis is superior in every category by a long shot.

All you've proven is that you're too stubborn to admit you were wrong. Everyone hates a know-it-all who can't admit when they're wrong. You should probably work on that part of your personality. I'm sure it irritates a lot of your friends and family.


Rock On Brotha. :rocker:

Willis > Mayo

Everyone knows it and admits it... except you. Keep those homer glasses on, they look real good on you.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh how sad.

You've already lost this argument. You've done NOTHING to prove Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of being a playmaker.

You will NEVER be able to prove that at this point in their careers, Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of playmaker stats. Sacks, INTs, FF, STF, Passes Defended.... You can't prove it because it's impossible to. Willis is superior in every category by a long shot.

All you've proven is that you're too stubborn to admit you were wrong. Everyone hates a know-it-all who can't admit when they're wrong. You should probably work on that part of your personality. I'm sure it irritates a lot of your friends and family.


Rock On Brotha. :rocker:

Willis > Mayo

Everyone knows it and admits it... except you. Keep those homer glasses on, they look real good on you.

Check back with me when you learn how to read.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Oh how sad.

You've already lost this argument. You've done NOTHING to prove Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of being a playmaker.

You will NEVER be able to prove that at this point in their careers, Mayo is equal to Willis in terms of playmaker stats. Sacks, INTs, FF, STF, Passes Defended.... You can't prove it because it's impossible to. Willis is superior in every category by a long shot.

All you've proven is that you're too stubborn to admit you were wrong. Everyone hates a know-it-all who can't admit when they're wrong. You should probably work on that part of your personality. I'm sure it irritates a lot of your friends and family.


Rock On Brotha. :rocker:

Willis > Mayo

Everyone knows it and admits it... except you. Keep those homer glasses on, they look real good on you.

Willis is better than Mayo (he's the best ILB in the league, whereas Mayo is 'merely' one of the best), but considering that you don't understand the difference between 2-gap and 1-gap, you clearly lack the required intelligence to contribute to this discussion.

Also, ad hominems aren't going to get you anywhere. They just make it even more obvious that you're in way over your head.

 

[Reckedtrek]

One quick point of clarification, if you don't mind (to whomever can answer). All caps means they're YELLING at you. What does all bold mean, especially when used on entire paragraphs of your own statement?

I might be kidding, but I'm not sure.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Willis is better than Mayo (he's the best ILB in the league, whereas Mayo is 'merely' one of the best), but considering that you don't understand the difference between 2-gap and 1-gap, you clearly lack the required intelligence to contribute to this discussion.

Also, ad hominems aren't going to get you anywhere. They just make it even more obvious that you're in way over your head.

I fully understand the difference between 1 and 2 gap systems.


To destroy the 1gap/2gap argument even further.... Look at Tedy Bruschi's numbers during the SuperBowl Era 2001-2004..... He played in the same system as Mayo, and he was known as a playmaker. That alone ends the whole argument and shows that an ILB in BB's 2gap system can still be a playmaker.

Bruschi played the same position and system that Mayo plays and had 10 INTs, 4 TDs, 12 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles in those 4 years.

In 4 Years, Mayo only has 2 INTs, 0 TDs, 4.5 Sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles.


Showing how much of a playmaker Bruschi was in the Pats 2 gap system proves that you can't use the 2gap system as an excuse for Mayo's lack of splash plays.


Mayo isn't known as a playmaker because he flat out has NOT been a playmaker yet. It took him 4 seasons to make his first INT, he doesn't force many fumbles, has never scored a defensive TD, he doesn't even make a lot of tackles for loss.

Check back with me when you learn how to read.

Check back with me when you take the homer glasses off and can admit you're wrong.

^Tedy Bruschi making an INT and returning it for a Touchdown.... being a playmaker as an ILB in the Patriots 2gap system.

If he can be a playmaker in our system, theres no excuse for Mayo not being a playmaker.


Mayo is a good player. A tackling machine. But he hasn't been much of a playmaker at this point in his career.

 

[ausbacker]

I fully understand the difference between 1 and 2 gap systems.

That doesn't change the fact that Willis is more of a playmaker.


You wanna know why Mayo has the "he's not a playmaker" stigma attached to him? It's because it took him 4 seasons to make his first INT. He doesn't force many fumbles. Has never scored a defensive TD. He doesn't even make a lot of tackles for loss. And before last years goal line stand (against San Diego i think) I can't remember Mayo ever coming up with a clutch play.

It's also funny how I showed Willis is superior in INTs, PDs, STFs, FFs, and AndyJohnson only replied about the sack totals. :singing:

Check back with me when you take the homer glasses off and can admit you're wrong.

The bolded comment demonstrates why people are questioning your football acumen regarding the assignments of a 1 gap versus 2 gap linebacker.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Bruschi never had an issue with making tackles for loss in our 2 gap system, and he played the same position Mayo does.

 

[ausbacker]

Bruschi never had an issue with making tackles for loss in our 2 gap system, and he played the same position Mayo does.

For the majority of his career Tedy Bruschi was a major part of a dominant defense, something Mayo is yet to experience either by rank or by quality surrounding him.

 

[Deus Irae]

Bruschi never had an issue with making tackles for loss in our 2 gap system, and he played the same position Mayo does.

You keep posting comments without thinking things through first. Let me see if I can help a bit here.

1.) Bruschi was a pass rusher in college. It was his strong suit starting out in the NFL. He had 8 of his 30 career sacks in his first two seasons.

2.) Once Bruschi moved to the ILB position for the Patriots, his sack numbers dropped

3.) Bruschi, despite being a tremendous pass rusher in college, recorded 2 sacks or fewer in 8 of his 13 NFL seasons.

4.) Bruschi averaged fewer than 1 INT per season, and didn't record his first until he was in his 4th NFL season, the same season Mayo recorded his.

5.) Bruschi had 17 FFs in 13 seasons, compared to Mayo's 4 FFs in 4 seasons. It's not as if Bruschi's got a huge edge here.

6.) Mayo has already had 2 seasons with more tackles than Bruschi ever accumulated.

7.) Mayo has 4 fumbles recovered to this point in his career. Bruschi didn't get there until year 6 of his career, and he finished with a total of 7.

8.) Tackles are plays.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

You keep posting comments without thinking things through first. Let me see if I can help a bit here.

1.) Bruschi was a pass rusher in college. It was his strong suit starting out in the NFL. He had 8 of his 30 career sacks in his first two seasons.

2.) Once Bruschi moved to the ILB position for the Patriots, his sack numbers dropped

3.) Bruschi, despite being a tremendous pass rusher in college, recorded 2 sacks or fewer in 8 of his 13 NFL seasons.

4.) Bruschi averaged fewer than 1 INT per season, and didn't record his first until he was in his 4th NFL season, the same season Mayo recorded his.

5.) Bruschi had 17 FFs in 13 seasons, compared to Mayo's 4 FFs in 4 seasons. It's not as if Bruschi's got a huge edge here.

6.) Mayo has already had 2 seasons with more tackles than Bruschi ever accumulated.

7.) Mayo has 4 fumbles recovered to this point in his career. Bruschi didn't get there until year 6 of his career, and he finished with a total of 7.

8.) Tackles are plays.

I understand all of that. But it doesn't change the fact that Bruschi was a playmaker in the Pats 2 gap system, and Mayo is not.

Bruschi also wasn't the 10th pick overall and an immediate starter. Nor was he ever in discussions being compared to the best ILB in the league (like someone here was trying to compare Mayo with Willis)


Sure Mayo might develop into more of a playmaker... but up until now, he simply has not been a playmaker.


EDIT: The point of the Bruschi comparison wasn't to compare him and Mayos careers like your reply would suggest. The point was to show that its possible to still be a playmaker despite being in a 2gap system.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

For the majority of his career Tedy Bruschi was a major part of a dominant defense, something Mayo is yet to experience either by rank or by quality surrounding him.

Look at the 49ers defensive stats before 2011 and they are not dominant either. That never stopped Patrick Willis from being a playmaker.

49ers 2007 - Allowed 364 points (22.8/g), 20th.
49ers 2008 - Allowed 381 points (23.8/g), 23rd.
49ers 2010 - Allowed 346 points (21.6/g), 16th.


Gotta love all the excuses you guys are coming up with to defend Mayo.


If San Francisco offered to trade Willis for Mayo.... 99% of people would do the trade if they were in the Pats front office... Including Bill Belichick.

The only 1% that wouldn't do it would be Pats fans posters.

 

[Deus Irae]

I understand all of that. But it doesn't change the fact that Bruschi was a playmaker in the Pats 2 gap system, and Mayo is not.

Actually, it does just that.

Bruschi also wasn't the 10th pick overall and an immediate starter. Nor was he ever in discussions being compared to the best ILB in the league (like someone here was trying to compare Mayo with Willis)

Irrelevant, and you keep posting about the Willis thing without actually reading what people have written.

Sure Mayo might develop into more of a playmaker... but up until now, he simply has not been a playmaker.

Nonsense. You're using the word playmaker, and you're trying to form a definition of it that fits your argument, but that's simply not working out for you.

EDIT: The point of the Bruschi comparison wasn't to compare him and Mayos careers like your reply would suggest. The point was to show that its possible to still be a playmaker despite being in a 2gap system.

My reply suggests nothing. It was a direct response to what you're posting. When it comes to making plays, Bruschi has the edge in sacks, Mayo has the edge in tackles, and the rest is relatively even.

 

[ausbacker]

Look at the 49ers defensive stats before 2011 and they are not dominant either. That never stopped Patrick Willis from being a playmaker.

49ers 2007 - Allowed 364 points (22.8/g), 20th.
49ers 2008 - Allowed 381 points (23.8/g), 23rd.
49ers 2010 - Allowed 346 points (21.6/g), 16th.


Gotta love all the excuses you guys are coming up with to defend Mayo.


If San Francisco offered to trade Willis for Mayo.... 99% of people would do the trade if they were in the Pats front office... Including Bill Belichick.

The only 1% that wouldn't do it would be Pats fans posters.

You still don't understand the difference between a 1 gap and a 2 gap linebacker do you MrNathanDrake? Quit embarrassing yourself.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Deus, I'm not comparing careers.... I'm not comparing collegiate backgrounds.

All I did was show that Bruschis numbers from 2001-2004 which prove it's possible to be a playmaker while being a 2gap ILB in the Patriots system.... something that AndyJohnson was using as an excuse for Mayos lack of splash plays.

Next time try reading the entire discussion (which goes numerous pages back) before you try jumping in.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

You still don't understand the difference between a 1 gap and a 2 gap linebacker do you MrNathanDrake? Quit embarrassing yourself.

The only thing embarrassing is the homers around here trying to say they "don't understand why Mayo isn't known as a playmaker while Willis is".

Take that to a reputable football forum and you will be laughed at.

 

[ausbacker]

The only thing embarrassing is the homers around here trying to say they "don't understand why Mayo isn't known as a playmaker while Willis is".

Take that to a reputable football forum and you will be laughed at.

I think it's more a product of most posters understanding the differences in role requirements where you've failed to recognise that fundamental point.

It's similar to comparing the role of a NT with a DT. They're both defensive linemen right?