Heavy on the Mayo

[MrNathanDrake]

I think it's more a product of most posters understanding the differences in role requirements where you've failed to recognise that fundamental point.

It's similar to comparing the role of a NT with a DT. They're both defensive linemen right?

Bruschi argument once again...


Bruschi played the same position as Mayo, in the same 2gap system as Mayo.


Bruschi was a playmaker.... Mayo is not.


Simple as that!




Oh... but then you've got ANOTHER excuse.. "Bruschi had more talent around"...... True..... but Willis hasn't had much talent around him until last year and he was still a playmaker....


So whats your next excuse?





Just admit it. Mayo is NOT a playmaker.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, I'm not comparing careers.... I'm not comparing collegiate backgrounds.

All I did was show that Bruschis numbers from 2001-2004 which prove it's possible to be a playmaker while being a 2gap ILB in the Patriots system.... something that AndyJohnson was using as an excuse for Mayos lack of splash plays.

Next time try reading the entire discussion (which goes numerous pages back) before you try jumping in.

I know what you're trying to do. You simply failed at your attempt. I suggest that you either admit you oversold your argument or you just bow out. to reiterate a couple of problems with your position:

"playmaker" is a made up term, and you're trying to define it in a manner which deliberately lessens Mayo's ability to fit the definition.

Mayo's "playmaker" numbers (based upon what you were using to define it) are basically on par with Bruschi's. Therefore, either Bruschi wasn't a playmaker when he was putting up those numbers, or Mayo is a playmaker now for putting up those numbers.

You boxed yourself into a corner, needlessly, because the term "playmaker" is actually pretty meaningless.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I know what you're trying to do. You simply failed at your attempt. I suggest that you either admit you oversold your argument or you just bow out. to reiterate a couple of problems with your position:

"playmaker" is a made up term, and you're trying to define it in a manner which deliberately lessens Mayo's ability to fit the definition.

Mayo's "playmaker" numbers (based upon what you were using to define it) are basically on par with Bruschi's. Therefore, either Bruschi wasn't a playmaker when he was putting up those numbers, or Mayo is a playmaker now for putting up those numbers.
.

LOL.

You're wrong. While "playmaker" isn't clearly defined, its commonly acknowledged to be turns overs or game changing plays.... Sacks, Forced Fumbles, INTs, Defensive Touchdowns, Tackles For Loss.

All of which Bruschis numbers are CLEARLY SUPERIOR to Mayos when you compare his 2001-2004 season to Mayos first 4 seasons.

You boxed yourself into a corner, needlessly, because the term "playmaker" is actually pretty meaningless

Actually it just shows your lack of insight.

If you can't see the difference between someone who makes a bunch of tackles after a Running Back gains yards, and someone who makes sacks, Tackles for Loss, INTs, Forces Fumbles, etc..... thats your own fault.

 

[ausbacker]

Bruschi argument once again...

Bruschi played the same position as Mayo, in the same 2gap system as Mayo.

Bruschi was a playmaker.... Mayo is not.

Simple as that!

Oh... but then you've got ANOTHER excuse.. "Bruschi had more talent around"...... True..... but Willis hasn't had much talent around him until last year and he was still a playmaker....

So whats your next excuse?

Just admit it. Mayo is NOT a playmaker.

Willis has had plenty of quality players on the 49ers Defense. That D wasn't formed by Harbaugh you do realise? The major pain the 49ers faced was a horrendous Offense. It would be wiser for you to check up on recent NFL history before making a broad sweeping statement as such.

As for your Mayo argument, Deus knocked it on it's head from the beginning. You can make an argument for Jerod Mayo as the best tackler in the NFL. If that's not the definition of playmaker then you're welcome to your low opinion of Mayo.

As for Willis, I already stated that I believe Willis is the #1 MLB/ILB in the NFL with Mayo at #2. What's the issue there?

 

[Deus Irae]

LOL.

You're wrong. While "playmaker" isn't clearly defined, its commonly acknowledged to be turns overs or game changing plays.... Sacks, Forced Fumbles, INTs, Defensive Touchdowns, Tackles For Loss.

All of which Bruschis numbers are CLEARLY SUPERIOR to Mayos when you compare his 2001-2004 season to Mayos first 4 seasons.

You just want to keep digging, don't you?

As you acknowledge, "playmaker" isn't clearly defined. The rest is just nonsense.

As for Bruschi's numbers, you're cherry picking Bruschis best seasons, in terms of numerical production, which didn't happen until he was in his football prime (years 6-9 of his career, age 28-31), matching them up in the years when Bruschi had the best supporting case around him to help him compile raw numbers, and trying to match them up against Mayo's formative NFL years (he's currently 25 years old).

Your argument's a losing one. Bruschi's career numbers put his numerical production basically on par with Mayo's first 4 seasons.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you can't see the difference between someone who makes a bunch of tackles after a Running Back gains yards, and someone who makes sacks, Tackles for Loss, INTs, Forces Fumbles, etc..... thats your own fault.

And you continue to demonstrate your ignorance....

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Willis has had plenty of quality players on the 49ers Defense.

Wrong. 49ers defense was average (if not below average) for Willis first few seasons there.

It wasn't until last year that they really became dominant with the emergence of sophomore Navorro Bowman, newly acquired Donte Whitner, Rookie Aldon Smith, and Justin Smith having the best season of his career.

As for your Mayo argument, Deus knocked it on it's head from the beginning. You can make an argument for Jerod Mayo as the best tackler in the NFL. If that's not the definition of playmaker then you're welcome to your low opinion of Mayo.

1. Why are you trying to gang up on me with another poster? Aren't you man enough to stand on your own two feet?

2. Making tackles after a RB has gained a couple yards does NOT make you a play maker.

Play makers are difference makers.... create turn overs... make splash plays.... game changing plays.... (INTs, Defensive TDs, Forced Fumbles, Sacks, Tackles for Loss, Passes Defended, Turn overs)


Mayo is a tackling machine... NOT a play maker.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

As for Bruschi's numbers, you're cherry picking Bruschis best seasons, in terms of numerical production, which didn't happen until he was in his football prime (years 6-9 of his career, age 28-31), matching them up in the years when Bruschi had the best supporting case around him to help him compile raw numbers, and trying to match them up against Mayo's formative NFL years (he's currently 25 years old).

Your argument's a losing one. Bruschi's career numbers put his numerical production basically on par with Mayo's first 4 seasons.

I fully acknowledge I "cherry picked" Bruschis numbers...

I did it ON PURPOSE!!!

I'm not comparing Bruschi and Mayos careers you silly little boy.

I posted Bruschis best years to PROVE to another poster that its possible for a 2gap ILB to be a playmaker who gets Sacks, INTs, FFs, etc..



That's the problem when you jump into conversations without knowing where they began..... Go back and read the ENTIRE thread and you'll see why I posted Bruschis best years :bricks:

 

[ausbacker]

Wrong. 49ers defense was average (if not below average) for Willis first few seasons there.

You are aware that it's possible for good players to be on average or below average units?

It wasn't until last year that they really became dominant with the emergence of sophomore Navorro Bowman, newly acquired Donte Whitner, Rookie Aldon Smith, and Justin Smith having the best season of his career.

Let me get this right. You're making a broad sweeping statement on the acquisition of two new players and the performances of players who were on the roster pre:Harbaugh days to support your point? You do realise that supports my point right?

1. Why are you trying to gang up on me with another poster? Aren't you man enough to stand on your own two feet?

I'm not ganging up on you at all. It's well documented that Andy, Deus and I have butted heads more than once. In this instance, I happen to believe that they offer more compelling and accurate arguments than your position.

2. Making tackles after a RB has gained a couple yards does NOT make you a play maker.

Perhaps you would prefer that Mayo sidestepped his assignment and allowed the ball carrier to move past him?

Play makers are difference makers.... create turn overs... make splash plays.... game changing plays.... (INTs, Defensive TDs, Forced Fumbles, Sacks, Tackles for Loss, Passes Defended, Turn overs)

That may be your definition of a playmaker and you're welcome to it.

Mayo is a tackling machine... NOT a play maker.

Mayo is a tackling machine and a playmaker in my opinion.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

That may be your definition of a playmaker and you're welcome to it.

That is the general consensus as to what makes someone a playmaker. I thought it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE (apparently it isn't on this forum) Turn on NFLN or ESPN or go to respected Football forums like footballsfuture.com and draftcountdown.com... go make a thread at one of those forums saying Mayo is a playmaker and people will laugh at you. I have never heard anyone call Mayo a playmaker.

There have already been discussions on this same topic, both on this forum and in the media:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...3603-jerod-mayo-will-he-become-playmaker.html

Globe 10.0: Can Mayo be more of a playmaker? - YouTube

Mayo is a tackling machine and a playmaker in my opinion.

He's not a play maker... Not with 4.5 Sacks, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, 4 FF in 4 years...

Hopefully he can improve this area... but so far he has not been a playmaker.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Tedy Bruschi himself called Jerod Mayo an "anchor" while saying Ninkovich is a more of a playmaker
ESPN Ninkovich's new role -- Pats playmaker

Jerod Mayo Is a Tackler, Not a Playmaker
Jerod Mayo Injury: 5 Reasons the Patriots Can Cope Without Him | Bleacher Report




This is common knowledge all around the league, and amongst football fans.

 

[Sciz]

Tedy Bruschi himself called Jerod Mayo an "anchor" while saying Ninkovich is a more of a playmaker
ESPN Ninkovich's new role -- Pats playmaker

Jerod Mayo Is a Tackler, Not a Playmaker
Jerod Mayo Injury: 5 Reasons the Patriots Can Cope Without Him | Bleacher Report




This is common knowledge all around the league, and amongst football fans.

You know someone's argument is crap once they start citing Bleacher Report.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

You know someone's argument is crap once they start citing Bleacher Report.

Nothing wrong with Bleacher report. They can be hit and miss. But they're no less credible than some of the posters here.

The point of the links are to show how Mayo is widely thought of as not being a play-maker

 

[Joker]

your number has been called ,Drake...

 

[BradyFTW!]

Nothing wrong with Bleacher report. They can be hit and miss. But they're no less credible than some of the posters here.

The point of the links are to show how Mayo is widely thought of as not being a play-maker

There's no barrier to posting, and therefore there's no inherent credibility in Bleacher Report. It's exactly like a forum post: might be someone who knows a ton, might be someone who knows nothing. What you've demonstrated is that someone, somewhere, doesn't think that Mayo is a playmaker. Which isn't in contention and doesn't matter anyways.

 

[BradyFTW!]

2. Making tackles after a RB has gained a couple yards does NOT make you a play maker.

His assignment is usually to minimize the gain, rather than attempt to blow the runner up behind the line of scrimmage and frequently get beaten in the process. The fact that this does not fit your personal/inadequate definition of 'playmaker' doesn't matter to anyone but you.

 

[Deus Irae]

I fully acknowledge I "cherry picked" Bruschis numbers...

I did it ON PURPOSE!!!

I'm not comparing Bruschi and Mayos careers you silly little boy.

I posted Bruschis best years to PROVE to another poster that its possible for a 2gap ILB to be a playmaker who gets Sacks, INTs, FFs, etc..



That's the problem when you jump into conversations without knowing where they began..... Go back and read the ENTIRE thread and you'll see why I posted Bruschis best years :bricks:

I read your posts. I understood your points. They're just really lousy points.

It's not my fault that you're being too obtuse to understand the obvious response I am trying to get through to you.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

I read your posts. I understood your points. They're just really lousy points.

It's not my fault that you're being too obtuse to understand the obvious response I am trying to get through to you.

Obviously you didn't understand, as you kept comparing CAREERS college backgrounds and tried going off topic. Not my fault you're too simple minded to comprehend what was being said.

His assignment is usually to minimize the gain,

Yeah... that's the whole point of every player on every defense. :singing:

 

[JackBauer]

I fully acknowledge I "cherry picked" Bruschis numbers...

I did it ON PURPOSE!!!

I'm not comparing Bruschi and Mayos careers you silly little boy.

I posted Bruschis best years to PROVE to another poster that its possible for a 2gap ILB to be a playmaker who gets Sacks, INTs, FFs, etc..

At this point, I suggest you step away from the keyboard.

 

[Ring 6]

I fully understand the difference between 1 and 2 gap systems.


To destroy the 1gap/2gap argument even further.... Look at Tedy Bruschi's numbers during the SuperBowl Era 2001-2004..... He played in the same system as Mayo, and he was known as a playmaker. That alone ends the whole argument and shows that an ILB in BB's 2gap system can still be a playmaker.

Bruschi played the same position and system that Mayo plays and had 10 INTs, 4 TDs, 12 Sacks, 10 Forced Fumbles in those 4 years.

In 4 Years, Mayo only has 2 INTs, 0 TDs, 4.5 Sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles.


Showing how much of a playmaker Bruschi was in the Pats 2 gap system proves that you can't use the 2gap system as an excuse for Mayo's lack of splash plays.


Mayo isn't known as a playmaker because he flat out has NOT been a playmaker yet. It took him 4 seasons to make his first INT, he doesn't force many fumbles, has never scored a defensive TD, he doesn't even make a lot of tackles for loss.

While many other posters have exposed your weakness since I last read this thread, this post is a perfect example of why you need to gain some knowledge before posting.
The difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap system for an ILB shows up statistcally in tackles, because the 2 gap player is relegated to a smaller area of the field, and in tackles for loss, because 2 gap player is almost by the nature of the defense unable to make tackles for loss. If you understood what everyone was trying to get across to you, you would concede that comparing these 2 statistic across those schemes is foolhardy.
Related to this is sacks. ILB cannot get sacks unless they blitz. The 49ers often blitz Willis, the Patriots rarely blitz Mayo. While, in the area of sacks Willis 'makes more plays' that is an incomplete comparison, because Mayo is not given the opportunity to do so. Willis' sack totals may in fact be less impressive given the amount of blitzing he does than Mayos are given the limited opportunites he has.
While it is a poor source in almost every way, Pro Football Focus does tabulate the number of times a player rushes the QB. Maybe someone who has access to that could add those numbers for a little insight.

Trying to include pass coverage statistics as part of 1gap/2gap debate is simply ignorant.

Cherry picking Bruschi's top years was disingenuous and indicative of your circling the bowl state in this debate.

Check back with me when you take the homer glasses off and can admit you're wrong.

There is nothing 'homerish' about you misusing statistics. I would be having the same discussion if the limited and poorly comparable stats you are trying to turn into a conclusion were reversed and you were arguing Mayo is a better player than he is because he happens to be in a system that puts him in a position to accumulate, in fact requires him to accumulate, the narrow statistics that you want to call the complete analysis of an NFL LB.

^Tedy Bruschi making an INT and returning it for a Touchdown.... being a playmaker as an ILB in the Patriots 2gap system.

If he can be a playmaker in our system, theres no excuse for Mayo not being a playmaker.


Mayo is a good player. A tackling machine. But he hasn't been much of a playmaker at this point in his career.

Wow, you included a picture, that must make your argument better