Stopping the other team when they need to only pass

[RDS11]

I wish BB/Josh could somehow ramp up the running game. That's what this offense REALLY needs -- a legitimate running THREAT. Exhibit A: the New York Giants.

The Giants finished last in the NFL for rushing yards and for rushing yards average (3.5 yards per carry) in the regular season.
Then, in the playoffs, they rushed for 95 yards against the Packers (3.5 avg) and 85 yards against the 49ers (3.3 avg).

The Giants were no running threat. In fact, it seems that running the football efficiently is not required to win it all anymore.

 

[PatriotSeven]

The non-stop on 3rd down was a killer. But it came due to a penalty. A penalty I'm not sure wasn't committed 100 other times throughout the course of the game.

Regardless of how people chose to view the defense, you simply can't blame a defense that holds your opponent to below league average points in a loss.

It is obviously a failure of an offense, incapable of scoring even average points. In the end, the point of the game is for an offense to win and score more points than the other.

Our defense did its job, especially considering they were playing with an offense who averages more than 30+ points per game. They made it easy for our offense to do its job.

The offense didn't. Especially when you consider almost half the points came off of turnovers and are completely on the offensive side of the ball. I am very pleased with this defense and hope they continue to play in the manner which they had.

We lost a football game. A big one, but still, it's just one game. The team isn't broken. Try again next year.

 

[borg]

I'm trying to find a connection between the 2001-2004 teams and where the Pats are today. BB added premium draft DTs to his established LB/DB corps and the teams fortunes prospered. I can't argue that the current LB/DB roster compares to the early decade players....but today's group has grown with experience. Is it time to retool the DTs...now that the back 7 (five I trust) has matured

 

[Ochmed Jones]

If there is one thing that the Pats have not been good at this is it.
What we have DLINE
1) I think Carter is gone. The severity of his injury and the fact he has been in the league 11 years concerns me that even if he gets back, he won't have the skills. Leg injuries to aging players who rely on their legs is not good.
Anderson should be kept. He may only play 300-400 snaps as a sub package DE, but those are important snaps.
Pryor theoretically could be a decent sub rush DT but will he ever be healthy? Cant count on it. Deaderick is also decent in this role.
Ninko is barely acceptable as a sub pass rusher, so would be a good backup there who can also cover in the sub.
Wilfork will be better for the other 50 snaps if we leave him out of these.
No one else in the front 7 really seems to be an effective sub front 4 guy.
Need to add.
1) Another outside rusher. When it is the starting 34OLB/43DE or another Anderson who is a critically important role player.
2/3) 2 DL who can give an inside rush from sub package. I'd like to see DE/DT hybrids. The 280-290 lb guy who is small and quick for a 43 DT or 34 DE and bigger than a 43 DE. These do not have to be guys that play in the regular D. They can be draft choices, FAs, and shouldn't be severely expensive, but could also be a guy who plays 34 DE in the base.
Thoughts?

You stop this by doing to opposing offenses the same thing they do to stop us. Get after the QB. Make the opposing QB shorten his down the field looks because he is worried about the pass rush.

For us it starts with a need for two high quality playmaking DE's. Not decent reserves like Deaderick or Brace or hybrids like Pryor or Ellis.

But two guys that can at least command a double team from the opposing Oline. These players are hard to find and don't last long in the draft. But they are out there. BB has traded up for these types in previous drafts and I would love to see him do that again in this draft.... for Brockers.

Look at the year Montgomery had at LSU and when you watch the tape,it is entirely because opposing offenses were keying on Brockers so much.

 

[sambam94]

agree with Andy. What this D has lacked in crunch time is very simple...getting to and sacking the QB. One key sack on a final drive changes everything...be it the loss of yards, maybe a strip sack, forced pick, ect. Pats just needed that 1 key sack on any of a number of final drives to ice the game..and they just haven't gotten it...Giants did...

 

[patsderoer]

agree with Andy. What this D has lacked in crunch time is very simple...getting to and sacking the QB. One key sack on a final drive changes everything...be it the loss of yards, maybe a strip sack, forced pick, ect. Pats just needed that 1 key sack on any of a number of final drives to ice the game..and they just haven't gotten it...Giants did...

+1

Draft some guys who know how to get to the QB and have the sack # to prove it.

 

[Tunescribe]

The Giants finished last in the NFL for rushing yards and for rushing yards average (3.5 yards per carry) in the regular season.
Then, in the playoffs, they rushed for 95 yards against the Packers (3.5 avg) and 85 yards against the 49ers (3.3 avg).

The Giants were no running threat. In fact, it seems that running the football efficiently is not required to win it all anymore.

The higher the stakes, the more evenly matched the teams are, the more defense and running the ball matter. In the Super Bowl the Giants had 114 yards rushing on 28 tries which helped contribute to their whopping advantage in time of possession -- 37:05 to 22:55. The Pats had 83 yards rushing on only 19 tries.

 

[letekro]

So you are saying yes, that does excuse the defense allowing 28 points in the second half. I'm sorry, it was actually 32.

Complementary football. A concept you don't seem to understand. You credit the offense for jumping out to a 21-3 lead, but you conveniently fail to mention that the defense dominated the first half as well, giving up only 6 points, and scoring 7 themselves. Both the offense and defense were abysmal in the second half of the AFCCG. Neither could make a single play. If the offense had played better, it would've helped the defense rest and try to figure out what was hitting them.

Looking at SB 46, the defense REPEATEDLY stopped the Giants or held them to FGs in the second half. The Offense did NOTHING. NOTHING for the last 26 minutes. There's a reason why Brady and Welker were in tears after the game. They failed. The defense has nothing at all to be ashamed of. They played like champions.

 

[Deus Irae]

Complementary football. A concept you don't seem to understand. You credit the offense for jumping out to a 21-3 lead, but you conveniently fail to mention that the defense dominated the first half as well, giving up only 6 points, and scoring 7 themselves. Both the offense and defense were abysmal in the second half of the AFCCG. Neither could make a single play. If the offense had played better, it would've helped the defense rest and try to figure out what was hitting them.

Looking at SB 46, the defense REPEATEDLY stopped the Giants or held them to FGs in the second half. The Offense did NOTHING. NOTHING for the last 26 minutes. There's a reason why Brady and Welker were in tears after the game. They failed. The defense has nothing at all to be ashamed of. They played like champions.

How many 3-and-outs did the defense force? How many turnovers did it create. When big stops were needed on the drive after the safety and at the Giants last drive the end of the game, how'd that defense do?

 

[patsinthesnow]

How many 3-and-outs did the defense force? How many turnovers did it create. When big stops were needed on the drive after the safety and at the Giants last drive the end of the game, how'd that defense do?

-Touchdown Aaron Hernandez, Patriots lead 17-9.

-Next drive, defense gets a nice 3rd down stop, Patriots lead 17-12.

-Offense goes 3 and out.

-Giants drive down the field, Ninkovich sack on 3rd down and 8, Patriots lead 17-15.

-Patriots driving, Brady goes ****** bomb to Gronk, Gronk doesn't fight at all being 6'6 interception Giants.

-Giants drive down the field (ninkovich penalty drive) Moore forces a stop on 3rd and 10, Giants punt.

-Patriots drive, Welker drop, Patriots punt.

-Giants, blablabla drive, Touchdown.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree the defense can't keep giving up 40 yard drives and pinning the offense deep, but I'm not sure many defenses would have done much better than that vs. Cruz/Nicks/Manningham and Manning.

The main problem IMO with no 3 and outs is the pressure on the QB.

 

[Triumph]

Let me rephrase this.
Its not the number of passing yards accumulated in a game or season that is the big issue, it is the ease that the other team has in passing against us in a pass only situation.

It all amounts to the same thing. Passing yards is a product of passing completions. A pass only situation begins in the 1st quarter in todays NFL. Teams like GB and NO will come out throwing. And, look for the rest of the NFL to follow suit.

Bad pass defense = high defensive passing yards. Unless the Pats are up in score by a comfortable margin, NE can usually hang on for the win because the other team will eventually run out of time or commit a mistake. That describes the NE pass defense today.

Good pass defense = low to average passing yards. Giving up passing yards in the prevent when youve got a decent pass defense is one thing, Ive never seen a good pass defense be last in the NFL in terms of yardage.

In other words, if we are facing Dan Orlovsky and decide to take away the run and make him beat us, its of little concern that after we build a 31-3 lead he puts up a lot of garbage yards. But it IS a big concern that we don't have the athletes that can cover even in a prevent situation and that when we play straight up during parts of those drives we couldn't flip the switch because of talent.

I surmise that nobody cares about garbage yards if the pass defense doesnt suck.

The bottom line is that CB and S are a major need this off season.

 

[skinnydog]

-Touchdown Aaron Hernandez, Patriots lead 17-9.

-Next drive, defense gets a nice 3rd down stop, Patriots lead 17-12.

-Offense goes 3 and out.

-Giants drive down the field, Ninkovich sack on 3rd down and 8, Patriots lead 17-15.


-Giants, blablabla drive, Touchdown.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------Y---

I agree the defense can't keep giving up 40 yard drives and pinning the offense deep, but I'm not sure many defenses would have done much better than that vs. Cruz/Nicks/Manningham and Manning.

The main problem IMO with no 3 and outs is the pressure on the QB.

A championship defense would have forced at least 1 three and out by the Giants. Oh and no 4, 5,6,7 or 8 and outs for the Pats either. The 3rd down stops you mention all came on drives of 9 plays or more as did every single Giants drive They directly contributed to the Pats getting killed on Time of possession. They directly contributed for fewer scoring chances for this offense which was facing a very, very good Giants defense with there number one threat playing on one leg.

 

[Deus Irae]

-Touchdown Aaron Hernandez, Patriots lead 17-9.

-Next drive, defense gets a nice 3rd down stop, Patriots lead 17-12.

-Offense goes 3 and out.

-Giants drive down the field, Ninkovich sack on 3rd down and 8, Patriots lead 17-15.

-Patriots driving, Brady goes ****** bomb to Gronk, Gronk doesn't fight at all being 6'6 interception Giants.

-Giants drive down the field (ninkovich penalty drive) Moore forces a stop on 3rd and 10, Giants punt.

-Patriots drive, Welker drop, Patriots punt.

-Giants, blablabla drive, Touchdown.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree the defense can't keep giving up 40 yard drives and pinning the offense deep, but I'm not sure many defenses would have done much better than that vs. Cruz/Nicks/Manningham and Manning.

The main problem IMO with no 3 and outs is the pressure on the QB.

1.) I asked about 3-and-outs, not eventual stops, and pressure's not the only way to get one. Actually covering receivers can lead to the same thing, as can shutting down the run. The Patriots did neither of those things in the game.

2.) The Giants scored fewer than 21 points in 6 games during the season, including twice against the Redskins. Cruz/Nicks/Manningham and Manning was no unstoppable force.

 

[Ring 6]

Complementary football. A concept you don't seem to understand. You credit the offense for jumping out to a 21-3 lead, but you conveniently fail to mention that the defense dominated the first half as well, giving up only 6 points, and scoring 7 themselves. Both the offense and defense were abysmal in the second half of the AFCCG. Neither could make a single play. If the offense had played better, it would've helped the defense rest and try to figure out what was hitting them.

Looking at SB 46, the defense REPEATEDLY stopped the Giants or held them to FGs in the second half. The Offense did NOTHING. NOTHING for the last 26 minutes. There's a reason why Brady and Welker were in tears after the game. They failed. The defense has nothing at all to be ashamed of. They played like champions.

Champions don't take the field for their final and most important drive of the season with 88 yards behind them and not even be competitive while watching the other team walk right down the field at will. They never even forced a 3rd down.
How can you call a unit that failed horrendously when it mattered most Championship caliber? They ought to be ashamed of that drive.
But hey if you can justify allowing 32 points in a half you can justify anything I guess.

 

[Ring 6]

It all amounts to the same thing. Passing yards is a product of passing completions. A pass only situation begins in the 1st quarter in todays NFL. Teams like GB and NO will come out throwing. And, look for the rest of the NFL to follow suit.

Bad pass defense = high defensive passing yards. Unless the Pats are up in score by a comfortable margin, NE can usually hang on for the win because the other team will eventually run out of time or commit a mistake. That describes the NE pass defense today.

Good pass defense = low to average passing yards. Giving up passing yards in the prevent when youve got a decent pass defense is one thing, Ive never seen a good pass defense be last in the NFL in terms of yardage.




I surmise that nobody cares about garbage yards if the pass defense doesnt suck.

The bottom line is that CB and S are a major need this off season.

I just don't think cumulative stats taken out of context tell much.

 

[Ring 6]

Complementary football. A concept you don't seem to understand. You credit the offense for jumping out to a 21-3 lead, but you conveniently fail to mention that the defense dominated the first half as well, giving up only 6 points, and scoring 7 themselves. Both the offense and defense were abysmal in the second half of the AFCCG. Neither could make a single play. If the offense had played better, it would've helped the defense rest and try to figure out what was hitting them.

Looking at SB 46, the defense REPEATEDLY stopped the Giants or held them to FGs in the second half. The Offense did NOTHING. NOTHING for the last 26 minutes. There's a reason why Brady and Welker were in tears after the game. They failed. The defense has nothing at all to be ashamed of. They played like champions.

By the way why do you feel the need to talk about the offense in a discussion about the defense?
Is it your expectation that the offense has to be so good that the defense doesn't matter? You are asking the OFFENSE to win a game where the defense allows 32 points in the second half.
Isn't the defense supposed to do its job regardless of what the offense does?

 

[DonBlackmon55]

By the way why do you feel the need to talk about the offense in a discussion about the defense?
Is it your expectation that the offense has to be so good that the defense doesn't matter? You are asking the OFFENSE to win a game where the defense allows 32 points in the second half.
Isn't the defense supposed to do its job regardless of what the offense does?

2007-8 season : Defense allows 17.1 pts/game.......allows 17points in SB42
2011-12 season: Defense allows 21.4 pts/game......allows 19points in SB46

So, Defense is doing its job, you obviously cannot see that since you're hung up over last Drive. Defense FORCED 3 FUMBLES

In the same SB's, Offfense scores 22 and 18 pts below their season average.

Welker, Branch, Hernandez DID NOT DO THEIR JOB by CATCHING THE BALL ON THE LAST DRIVE

Brady COST the Defense to play TWO Extra posessions.....Safety and INT. Brady DOES HIS JOB, and does not make boneheaded decisions, the Pats win SB.

Finally, get off the rant about D not doing its job...It took 2 of the greatest catches in SB HISTORY on LAST DRIVES by Opposing teams for Pats to lose. That ofcourse is a minor detail you won't mention

 

[Patriot Missile]

2007-8 season : Defense allows 17.1 pts/game.......allows 17points in SB42
2011-12 season: Defense allows 21.4 pts/game......allows 19points in SB46

So, Defense is doing its job, you obviously cannot see that since you're hung up over last Drive. Defense FORCED 3 FUMBLES

In the same SB's, Offfense scores 22 and 18 pts below their season average.

Welker, Branch, Hernandez DID NOT DO THEIR JOB by CATCHING THE BALL ON THE LAST DRIVE

Brady COST the Defense to play TWO Extra posessions.....Safety and INT. Brady DOES HIS JOB, and does not make boneheaded decisions, the Pats win SB.

Finally, get off the rant about D not doing its job...It took 2 of the greatest catches in SB HISTORY on LAST DRIVES by Opposing teams for Pats to lose. That ofcourse is a minor detail you won't mention

Pretty solid post. I also think the Defense played well enough to win. And I think we can both agree there certainly is some room for improvement on both sides of the ball.

Fortunately they have the cap room and the draft picks to make this team better in the long run. I'm sure Belichick see's the shortcomings of this team and will decide where those resources go.

Personally I would like to see them address the defense via free agency with a player you have to game plan for like Mario Williams, a true free safety with some speed and instincts and if that venture was successful I'd strongly consider moving up far with a strong package of picks and grab Morris Claiborne. Those three things would fix the 2 minute defense in a hurry imo.

Throw in a player like Brandon Lloyd to help the offense on the outside and call it a day.

 

[Deus Irae]

2007-8 season : Defense allows 17.1 pts/game.......allows 17points in SB42
2011-12 season: Defense allows 21.4 pts/game......allows 19points in SB46

So, Defense is doing its job, you obviously cannot see that since you're hung up over last Drive. Defense FORCED 3 FUMBLES

In the same SB's, Offfense scores 22 and 18 pts below their season average.

Welker, Branch, Hernandez DID NOT DO THEIR JOB by CATCHING THE BALL ON THE LAST DRIVE

Brady COST the Defense to play TWO Extra posessions.....Safety and INT. Brady DOES HIS JOB, and does not make boneheaded decisions, the Pats win SB.

Finally, get off the rant about D not doing its job...It took 2 of the greatest catches in SB HISTORY on LAST DRIVES by Opposing teams for Pats to lose. That ofcourse is a minor detail you won't mention

I love how you've gone so far in your inanity on this issue that you think FORCED 3 FUMBLES is somehow meaningful, when none of them were recovered by the Patriots. It really let's people know how absolutely ridiculous your arguments have become. Now, just to even things out, give the offense credit for first down throws that WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRST DOWNS if they'd been caught.

 

[patsderoer]

2007-8 season : Defense allows 17.1 pts/game.......allows 17points in SB42
2011-12 season: Defense allows 21.4 pts/game......allows 19points in SB46

So, Defense is doing its job, you obviously cannot see that since you're hung up over last Drive. Defense FORCED 3 FUMBLES

No, the defense DIDNT do its job. Beside the number of points they allowed, they were destroyed in yardage and TOP. 3 Pats drives started in their 10 yard line. Brady was in the endzone in the safety because of the defense.
The defense was a lot worse than the # of points given up shows.